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Old 05-25-2016, 07:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Qur'an is quite clear that no one will be punished, unless they have first been warned. Therefore those with no knowledge have not been warned and are not punished for not believing.


Surah 26:208-209

Never did We destroy a population, but had its warners. By way of reminder; and We never are unjust.

Surah 35:36-37

But those who reject (God) - for them will be the Fire of Hell: No term shall be determined for them, so they should die, nor shall its Penalty be lightened for them. Thus do We reward every ungrateful one! Therein will they cry aloud (for assistance): "Our Lord! Bring us out: we shall work righteousness, not the (deeds) we used to do!" - "Did We not give you long enough life so that he that would should receive admonition? and (moreover) the warner came to you. So taste ye (the fruits of your deeds): for the wrong-doers there is no helper."

Surah 39:71-72

The Unbelievers will be led to Hell in crowd: until, when they arrive, there, its gates will be opened. And its keepers will say, "Did not apostles come to you from among yourselves, rehearsing to you the Signs of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of This Day of yours?" The answer will be: "True: but the Decree of Punishment has been proved true against the Unbelievers!" (To them) will be said: "Enter ye the gates of Hell, to dwell therein: and evil is (this) Abode of the Arrogant!"

Surah 67:6-11

For those who reject their Lord (and Cherisher) is the Penalty of Hell: and evil is (such), Destination. When they are cast therein, they will hear the (terrible) drawing in of its breath even as it blazes forth, Almost bursting with fury: Every time a Group is cast therein, its Keepers will ask, "Did no Warner come to you?" They will say: "Yes indeed; a Warner did come to us, but we rejected him and said, 'God never sent down any (Message): ye are nothing but an egregious delusion!'" They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!" They will then confess their sins: but far will be (Forgiveness) from the Companions of the Blazing Fire!

No one will be punished unless they have been warned.
common sense dictates that there is no warning unless the person recognizes it as being such.


12. The true Muslim believes that God does not hold any person responsible until He has shown him the Right Way. This is why God has sent many messengers and revelations, and has made it clear that there would be no punishment before giving guidance and sounding the alarm. So, a person who has never come across any Divine revelations or messenger, or a person who is insane is not held responsible to God for failing to obey the Divine instructions. Such a person will be responsible only for not doing what his sound common sense tells him to do. But the person who knowingly and intentionally violates the Law of God or deviates from His Right Path will be punished for his wrong deeds (4:165; 5: 16 & 21; 17: 15).

This point is very important for every Muslim. There are many people in the world who have not heard of Islam and have no way of knowing about it. Such people may be honest and may become good Muslims, if they find their way to Islam. If they do not know and have no way of knowing, they will not be responsible for failing to be Muslims. Instead, the Muslim who can present Islam to such people will be the ones responsible for failing to invite them to Islam and show them what Islam is. This calls upon every Muslim throughout the globe not only to preach Islam in words but also -and more importantly-to live it in full (see, for example, the Qur’an, 3: 104;16:125).

The Fundamental Articles of Faith
You say: "No one gets punished or sent to hell for that which they have not found reason to believe."

Post evidence of that from the quran.
Nothing you posted said that "No one gets punished or sent to hell for that which they have not found reason to believe."
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Old 05-25-2016, 09:16 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
You say: "No one gets punished or sent to hell for that which they have not found reason to believe."

Post evidence of that from the quran.
Nothing you posted said that "No one gets punished or sent to hell for that which they have not found reason to believe."
Correct nothing I posted says "No one gets punished or sent to hell for that which they have not found reason to believe."

They all say that those sent to hell had some one warn them. In other words they had reason to believe God(saws) exists.
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Old 05-25-2016, 09:53 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Correct nothing I posted says "No one gets punished or sent to hell for that which they have not found reason to believe."

They all say that those sent to hell had some one warn them. In other words they had reason to believe God(saws) exists.
Rationally speaking, there is no reason whatsoever for anyone to believe in such a thing. But let's stick with your assertion:

"No one gets punished or sent to hell for that which they have not found reason to believe."

Where does it say that in the Quran? I see verse after verse about unbelievers/disbelievers roasting in allah's huge bonfire. What I do not see is allah saying that "No one gets punished or sent to hell for that which they have not found reason to believe."

So, can you prove your assertion? Being warned is certainly no reason to believe. I can warn you all day that you are wasting your life believing in nonsense. Will you believe me?
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Old 05-25-2016, 11:39 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Correct nothing I posted says "No one gets punished or sent to hell for that which they have not found reason to believe."

They all say that those sent to hell had some one warn them. In other words they had reason to believe God(saws) exists.
In general on Judgment Day, humans will be divided into two groups, on the Right Hand and on the Left Hand, in two groups [e.g. 70:37], i.e. Muslims and Non-Muslims.
There is no indication there are three groups like; 1. Muslims, 2. Non-Believers, 3.. Non-Believers not warned.

The GENERAL LAW of ALLAH is ALL NON-MUSLIMS will be destined to Hell to be tortured and burned in the worst manner imagined.
If it is a baby non-Muslim, then it is the fault of the parents for not-being Muslims.

The verses you listed indicate on Judgment Day, believers were asked, "were you warned" BUT it is likely only SOME unbelievers were asked such a question. Such verses were merely raised to highlight a specific point.
There is no indications in the Quran where ALL non-Muslims will be asked such a question.
Thus ALL non-Muslims [those who were asked whether they were warned and those who were not asked] are destined to be burned in Hell.
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Old 05-26-2016, 03:12 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In general on Judgment Day, humans will be divided into two groups, on the Right Hand and on the Left Hand, in two groups [e.g. 70:37], i.e. Muslims and Non-Muslims.
There is no indication there are three groups like; 1. Muslims, 2. Non-Believers, 3.. Non-Believers not warned.

The GENERAL LAW of ALLAH is ALL NON-MUSLIMS will be destined to Hell to be tortured and burned in the worst manner imagined.
If it is a baby non-Muslim, then it is the fault of the parents for not-being Muslims.

The verses you listed indicate on Judgment Day, believers were asked, "were you warned" BUT it is likely only SOME unbelievers were asked such a question. Such verses were merely raised to highlight a specific point.
There is no indications in the Quran where ALL non-Muslims will be asked such a question.
Thus ALL non-Muslims [those who were asked whether they were warned and those who were not asked] are destined to be burned in Hell.
Continuum, you have read the Quran many more times than I have! Do you recall a verse that said anything about those not warned and what happens to them? What you posted is very clear but I want to be sure I give Woodrow every chance. This is an important point. He can't seem to point to any verse that supports his assertion.
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Old 05-26-2016, 08:43 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Continuum, you have read the Quran many more times than I have! Do you recall a verse that said anything about those not warned and what happens to them? What you posted is very clear but I want to be sure I give Woodrow every chance. This is an important point. He can't seem to point to any verse that supports his assertion.
What the Qur'an is specific about is that every one sent to Hell has had warnings. No where does it say a person has been sent to hell without being warned.

"Whoever accepts guidance does so for his own good; whoever strays does so at his own peril. No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another, and never would We punish until We have sent a messenger." 17:15

He (Allah) will say: "Do not argue in My Presence. Indeed, I gave you advance warning of the Threat. My Word, once given, is not subject to change, and I do not wrong My servants." On the Day He says to Hell: "Are you full?" It will ask: "Are there no more to come?" (Surah Qaf: 28-30)

They will shout out in it: "Our Lord! Take us out! We will act rightly, differently from the way we used to act!" Did We not let you live long enough for anyone who was going to pay heed to pay heed? And did not the Warner come to you? Taste it then! There is no helper for the wrongdoers. (Surah Fatir: 37)

1244: The fate of kuffaar who did not hear the message of Islam

Someone has asked me this question (she is about to
become a muslimah). Her statement: 'A lot of others will never meet a Muslim in person. Will they be held responsible for their ignorance? What exactly does this mean: "After the revelation of the Quran who ever receives this message & does not abide by it is a non-believer"?
i. Who is considered to have received the message?
ii. Isn't it possible for people to have not received the message even though the Quran is in existence?'
Published Date: 1998-07-11

Praise be to Allaah.

It is part of the justice of Allaah that He does not punish any people until He has first sent a warning to them and unless there is evidence against them. Allaah does not treat anybody unfairly. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “… And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).” [al-Israa’ 17:15].

A person who has never heard of Islam or the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and who has never heard the message in its correct and true form, will not be punished by Allaah if he dies in a state of kufr (disbelief). If it were asked what his fate will be, the answer will be that Allaah will test him on the Day of Resurrection: if he obeys, he will enter Paradise and if he disobeys he will enter Hell. The evidence (daleel) for this is the hadeeth of al-Aswad ibn Saree’, who reported that the Prophet of Allaah SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are four (who will protest) to Allaah on the Day of Resurrection: the deaf man who never heard anything, the insane man, the very old man, and the man who died during the fatrah (the interval between the time of ‘Eesaa (Jesus, upon whom be peace) and the time of Muhammad SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)). The deaf man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I never heard anything.’ The insane man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but the children ran after me and threw stones at me.’ The very old man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I did not understand anything.’ The man who died during the fatrah will say, ‘O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.’ He will accept their promises of obedience, then word will be sent to them to enter the Fire. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.”

According to another report, he said: “Whoever enters it, it will be cool and safe for him, and whoever does not enter it will be dragged to it.” (The hadeeth was reported by Imaam Ahmad and Ibn Hibbaan, and deemed saheeh by al-Albaani, Saheeh al-Jaami’, 881).

Everyone who hears the message of Islam in a sound and correct form (and rejects it), will have evidence aginst him. Whoever dies without having heard the message, or having heard it in a distorted form, then his case is in the hands of Allaah. Allaah knows best about His creation, and He will never treat anyone unfairly. And Allaah is All-Seer of His slaves.
https://islamqa.info/en/1244
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Old 05-26-2016, 10:16 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
What the Qur'an is specific about is that every one sent to Hell has had warnings. No where does it say a person has been sent to hell without being warned.

"Whoever accepts guidance does so for his own good; whoever strays does so at his own peril. No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another, and never would We punish until We have sent a messenger." 17:15

He (Allah) will say: "Do not argue in My Presence. Indeed, I gave you advance warning of the Threat. My Word, once given, is not subject to change, and I do not wrong My servants." On the Day He says to Hell: "Are you full?" It will ask: "Are there no more to come?" (Surah Qaf: 28-30)

They will shout out in it: "Our Lord! Take us out! We will act rightly, differently from the way we used to act!" Did We not let you live long enough for anyone who was going to pay heed to pay heed? And did not the Warner come to you? Taste it then! There is no helper for the wrongdoers. (Surah Fatir: 37)

1244: The fate of kuffaar who did not hear the message of Islam

Someone has asked me this question (she is about to
become a muslimah). Her statement: 'A lot of others will never meet a Muslim in person. Will they be held responsible for their ignorance? What exactly does this mean: "After the revelation of the Quran who ever receives this message & does not abide by it is a non-believer"?
i. Who is considered to have received the message?
ii. Isn't it possible for people to have not received the message even though the Quran is in existence?'
Published Date: 1998-07-11

Praise be to Allaah.

It is part of the justice of Allaah that He does not punish any people until He has first sent a warning to them and unless there is evidence against them. Allaah does not treat anybody unfairly. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “… And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).” [al-Israa’ 17:15].

A person who has never heard of Islam or the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and who has never heard the message in its correct and true form, will not be punished by Allaah if he dies in a state of kufr (disbelief). If it were asked what his fate will be, the answer will be that Allaah will test him on the Day of Resurrection: if he obeys, he will enter Paradise and if he disobeys he will enter Hell. The evidence (daleel) for this is the hadeeth of al-Aswad ibn Saree’, who reported that the Prophet of Allaah SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are four (who will protest) to Allaah on the Day of Resurrection: the deaf man who never heard anything, the insane man, the very old man, and the man who died during the fatrah (the interval between the time of ‘Eesaa (Jesus, upon whom be peace) and the time of Muhammad SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)). The deaf man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I never heard anything.’ The insane man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but the children ran after me and threw stones at me.’ The very old man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I did not understand anything.’ The man who died during the fatrah will say, ‘O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.’ He will accept their promises of obedience, then word will be sent to them to enter the Fire. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.”

According to another report, he said: “Whoever enters it, it will be cool and safe for him, and whoever does not enter it will be dragged to it.” (The hadeeth was reported by Imaam Ahmad and Ibn Hibbaan, and deemed saheeh by al-Albaani, Saheeh al-Jaami’, 881).

Everyone who hears the message of Islam in a sound and correct form (and rejects it), will have evidence aginst him. Whoever dies without having heard the message, or having heard it in a distorted form, then his case is in the hands of Allaah. Allaah knows best about His creation, and He will never treat anyone unfairly. And Allaah is All-Seer of His slaves.
https://islamqa.info/en/1244
Holy cow! I just read the next verse!!

17:16 And when We intend to destroy a city, We command its affluent but they defiantly disobey therein; so the word comes into effect upon it, and We destroy it with [complete] destruction.

If you destroy a city, that means a LOT of people...and many are probably good....and how many have not heard of allah? Seriously, there was no internet back then.

Look at the next verse!

17:17 And how many have We destroyed from the generations after Noah. And sufficient is your Lord, concerning the sins of His servants, as Acquainted and Seeing.

And what does this mean????

17:18 Whoever should desire the immediate - We hasten for him from it what We will to whom We intend. Then We have made for him Hell, which he will [enter to] burn, censured and banished.

Don't use any references but the Quran. I won;t let you eat your cake and have it, too.

Allah says: "Indeed, I gave you advance warning of the Threat. "

So there you go. Threats of torture. That should make people want to submit.

Let's assume you are right. That means you think that every person who you told about Islam and who stays with their own faith or remains an atheist will go to hell. How many people have you damned to eternal torture? This would be true for all Muslims. If I held your beliefs I would go insane with guilt.
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Old 05-26-2016, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Rationally speaking, there is no reason whatsoever for anyone to believe in such a thing. But let's stick with your assertion:

"No one gets punished or sent to hell for that which they have not found reason to believe."

Where does it say that in the Quran? I see verse after verse about unbelievers/disbelievers roasting in allah's huge bonfire. What I do not see is allah saying that "No one gets punished or sent to hell for that which they have not found reason to believe."

So, can you prove your assertion? Being warned is certainly no reason to believe. I can warn you all day that you are wasting your life believing in nonsense. Will you believe me?
A warning is not a warning if a person does not comprehend it as a warning. but it is a moot point as Allaah(swt) will do that which is fair and just and that may not be what I think.
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Old 05-26-2016, 10:55 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A warning is not a warning if a person does not comprehend it as a warning. but it is a moot point as Allaah(swt) will do that which is fair and just and that may not be what I think.
How many people do you think will be tortured for all eternity because you or another Muslim told them about Islam and they decided not to submit? Do you have non-Muslim friends that Allah will suffer terrible torture for eternity? And do you think they deserve it because they were warned? Oh, that's right. You do think they deserve it.
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Old 05-26-2016, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
How many people do you think will be tortured for all eternity because you or another Muslim told them about Islam and they decided not to submit? Do you have non-Muslim friends that Allah will suffer terrible torture for eternity? And do you think they deserve it because they were warned? Oh, that's right. You do think they deserve it.
I am not that good of a Muslim. I do very little talking to non-Muslims about Islam. Simply because if I am in error, it would be my fault if they stop searching on their own.

I speak my views about Islam here. Initially this forum was nearly all Muslims with occasional non-Muslims asking specific question. but now I feel compelled to addressed what I perceive as misconceptions being spread.

I am not an advocate for proselytizing. I did my share of it as a christian Evangelist and as a result I now despise all forms of of proselytizing and will not speak about Islam unless it is with Muslims or on a forum that is openly Islamic.
Now after my rant I believe nearly all people will go to some level of Hell as payment for their transgressions. Of those very few will ever be sent to the lowest level, which is what the Bible and Qur'an describe. I believe Most people will eventually reach heaven or at least one of the high levels of hell provided they have not committed the sin of shirk.
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