U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-27-2016, 12:27 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312
Continuum, you have read the Quran many more times than I have! Do you recall a verse that said anything about those not warned and what happens to them? What you posted is very clear but I want to be sure I give Woodrow every chance. This is an important point. He can't seem to point to any verse that supports his assertion.
Based on what I have read, there are no verse[s] that identify non-Muslims who were not warned on Judgment Day.

The Quran mentioned that all humans will go to a central location [some infer it is a temporary hell] where Muslims are automatically placed in comfortable location to be judged and those very good Muslims will go straight to paradise, those who had sinned will be punished, sent to tarry then to Paradise. Meanwhile non-Muslims are placed in a hot terrible site [no Muslims must help or show compassion to the non-Muslims] to be judged then to Hell and the degree of torture is based on what 'evil' they had sowed on Earth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
What the Qur'an is specific about is that every one sent to Hell has had warnings. No where does it say a person has been sent to hell without being warned.

"Whoever accepts guidance does so for his own good; whoever strays does so at his own peril. No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another, and never would We punish until We have sent a messenger." 17:15

He (Allah) will say: "Do not argue in My Presence. Indeed, I gave you advance warning of the Threat. My Word, once given, is not subject to change, and I do not wrong My servants." On the Day He says to Hell: "Are you full?" It will ask: "Are there no more to come?" (Surah Qaf: 28-30)

They will shout out in it: "Our Lord! Take us out! We will act rightly, differently from the way we used to act!" Did We not let you live long enough for anyone who was going to pay heed to pay heed? And did not the Warner come to you? Taste it then! There is no helper for the wrongdoers. (Surah Fatir: 37)

1244: The fate of kuffaar who did not hear the message of Islam

Someone has asked me this question (she is about to
become a muslimah). Her statement: 'A lot of others will never meet a Muslim in person. Will they be held responsible for their ignorance? What exactly does this mean: "After the revelation of the Quran who ever receives this message & does not abide by it is a non-believer"?
i. Who is considered to have received the message?
ii. Isn't it possible for people to have not received the message even though the Quran is in existence?'
Published Date: 1998-07-11

Praise be to Allaah.

It is part of the justice of Allaah that He does not punish any people until He has first sent a warning to them and unless there is evidence against them. Allaah does not treat anybody unfairly. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “… And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).” [al-Israa’ 17:15].

A person who has never heard of Islam or the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and who has never heard the message in its correct and true form, will not be punished by Allaah if he dies in a state of kufr (disbelief). If it were asked what his fate will be, the answer will be that Allaah will test him on the Day of Resurrection: if he obeys, he will enter Paradise and if he disobeys he will enter Hell. The evidence (daleel) for this is the hadeeth of al-Aswad ibn Saree’, who reported that the Prophet of Allaah SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are four (who will protest) to Allaah on the Day of Resurrection: the deaf man who never heard anything, the insane man, the very old man, and the man who died during the fatrah (the interval between the time of ‘Eesaa (Jesus, upon whom be peace) and the time of Muhammad SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)). The deaf man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I never heard anything.’ The insane man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but the children ran after me and threw stones at me.’ The very old man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I did not understand anything.’ The man who died during the fatrah will say, ‘O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.’ He will accept their promises of obedience, then word will be sent to them to enter the Fire. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.”

According to another report, he said: “Whoever enters it, it will be cool and safe for him, and whoever does not enter it will be dragged to it.” (The hadeeth was reported by Imaam Ahmad and Ibn Hibbaan, and deemed saheeh by al-Albaani, Saheeh al-Jaami’, 881).

Everyone who hears the message of Islam in a sound and correct form (and rejects it), will have evidence aginst him. Whoever dies without having heard the message, or having heard it in a distorted form, then his case is in the hands of Allaah. Allaah knows best about His creation, and He will never treat anyone unfairly. And Allaah is All-Seer of His slaves.
https://islamqa.info/en/1244
Verse 17:15 refer to punishment on Earth and not on Judgment Day in the hereafter. Note for example Lot and Sodom, Noah and floods, and destructions of various infidels of old.
In the Quran Allah highlighted to non-Muslims to travel the land the see the signs of destructions on Earth not Hell.

As far as Hell on Judgment Day is concerned ALL non-Muslims will ultimately end up in Hell proper without exception.

Last edited by Continuum; 05-27-2016 at 12:42 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-29-2016, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Based on what I have read, there are no verse[s] that identify non-Muslims who were not warned on Judgment Day.

The Quran mentioned that all humans will go to a central location [some infer it is a temporary hell] where Muslims are automatically placed in comfortable location to be judged and those very good Muslims will go straight to paradise, those who had sinned will be punished, sent to tarry then to Paradise. Meanwhile non-Muslims are placed in a hot terrible site [no Muslims must help or show compassion to the non-Muslims] to be judged then to Hell and the degree of torture is based on what 'evil' they had sowed on Earth.


Verse 17:15 refer to punishment on Earth and not on Judgment Day in the hereafter. Note for example Lot and Sodom, Noah and floods, and destructions of various infidels of old.
In the Quran Allah highlighted to non-Muslims to travel the land the see the signs of destructions on Earth not Hell.

As far as Hell on Judgment Day is concerned ALL non-Muslims will ultimately end up in Hell proper without exception.
While it is true that all who die as Muslims will eventually reach heaven (We have a concept similar to purgatory) We do not know who is a Muslim.

To be Muslim means the individual is performing Islam the best he can in accordance with ability, free will and available knowledge.

there are probably people both you and do not believe are muslim, it it is possible that person is doing the best in accord with their ability and knowledge.

Some people I know are Muslim that most non-Muslims will claim are not Muslim. Such as all people that have not reached the age of accountability. Those in isolated regions that will never even hear of Islam. Those that where given insufficient guidance.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-29-2016, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While it is true that all who die as Muslims will eventually reach heaven (We have a concept similar to purgatory) We do not know who is a Muslim.

To be Muslim means the individual is performing Islam the best he can in accordance with ability, free will and available knowledge.

there are probably people both you and do not believe are muslim, it it is possible that person is doing the best in accord with their ability and knowledge.

Some people I know are Muslim that most non-Muslims will claim are not Muslim. Such as all people that have not reached the age of accountability. Those in isolated regions that will never even hear of Islam. Those that where given insufficient guidance.
Within the context of the whole Quran it is very obvious that to be a "Muslim" a person must enter into a covenant [like signing a contract] with Allah and comply with the terms and conditions applicable to the specific individual.

Therefore all persons who had expressed their intent and had entered into a covenant with Allah [e.g. affirm the shahada] is deemed to be a Muslim at least as far as the available evidence to it.
Whether the Muslim complied with the terms and conditions is then between the individual Muslim and for Allah to judge.

As for children born to Muslims parents, they are deemed to be 'Muslims' till they are old enough to affirm the shahada in one form or another.

Therefore you cannot assert 'We do not know who is a Muslim' based on empirical evidence.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-30-2016, 08:44 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Within the context of the whole Quran it is very obvious that to be a "Muslim" a person must enter into a covenant [like signing a contract] with Allah and comply with the terms and conditions applicable to the specific individual.

Therefore all persons who had expressed their intent and had entered into a covenant with Allah [e.g. affirm the shahada] is deemed to be a Muslim at least as far as the available evidence to it.
Whether the Muslim complied with the terms and conditions is then between the individual Muslim and for Allah to judge.

As for children born to Muslims parents, they are deemed to be 'Muslims' till they are old enough to affirm the shahada in one form or another.

Therefore you cannot assert 'We do not know who is a Muslim' based on empirical evidence.
It is not just children born to Muslim parents that are considered to be Muslim. Everyone is born Muslim.

God reveals in the Qur’an:

And (mention) when your Lord took a covenant from Adam’s progeny; asking them ‘Am I not your Lord?’ They replied ‘Yes we have now testified.’ This is lest you say on the Day of Resurrection ‘Truly, we were unaware’. Or that you might say, ‘It was only our fathers who associated other in worship with God before us and we were just their descendents after them’. (Al-A`raf 7:172, 173)

One needs to look carefully at that ayyat;

It says all of Adam's progeny are Muslim. that means every person descended from Adam. they were/are/will be created with a covenant with Allaah(swt). It is only after reaching the age of reason and the ability to make free will choices can they choose to be Muslim.

The Question is not how does one become a Muslim, the question is how do they cease being a Muslim. that comes from many factors including but not limited to influence of others, personal rebellion, denial.

An analogy is: Every person born in the USA is a US citizen, nothing else required. That person will remain a US citizen until they do something that ends the citizenship.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-30-2016, 09:24 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It is not just children born to Muslim parents that are considered to be Muslim. Everyone is born Muslim.

I wasn't!! You can't make such a wild claim based on some inane old book and expect people to believe you.

This kind of reminds me of a clip from 'Life of Brian'.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY

It occurs to me....here is this all knowing and all powerful superbeing and we (supposedly) are all born believing in him. He even writes a book and finds a messenger! He can do ANYTHING!! Yet less than a quarter of the world is actually Muslim. And probably far less than that if you consider the people who say under duress that they are Muslim but really hate Islam.

This takes me back to thinking that if allah did exist, he would be the most evil thing I could imagine. The horrible torture of billions and billions of souls is something out of the worst horror movie.

Last edited by juju33312; 05-30-2016 at 10:06 AM.. Reason: another thought
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-30-2016, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I wasn't!! You can't make such a wild claim based on some inane old book and expect people to believe you.

This kind of reminds me of a clip from 'Life of Brian'.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY
by the definition of Muslim, you were a Muslim until you reached the age of reason and had a free will choice. It is your right and free will to choose not to be Muslim. Not accepting Islam after reaching the age of reason, and having knowledge of Islam, is sufficient to no longer be Muslim.

Sorry, but until the second you had the ability to choose not to be Muslim, you were Muslim.

Being Muslim is not membership in anything. Nobody joins Islam, there is no joining required. Islam is not a church, denomination or any type of organization. It is the act of submitting to Allaah(swt) to the best of your ability based upon your knowledge. If you have no knowledge of Islam, you are performing Islam to the best of your ability in accordance of your knowledge. Any person who performs Islam is a Muslim, even if they are not aware they are performing Islam.

Just like every person born in the USA is a US citizen even if they have no idea what the US is.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-30-2016, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Just like every person born in the USA is a US citizen even if they have no idea what the US is.
This is a very bad analogy.

It is accepted by consensus via UN every human born on Earth must belong to a Nation or country based on international laws which are man-made and can be changed.

On the other hand there is no consensus amongst all humans on Earth with reference to the Quran, Sunnah or Ahadiths. Besides there is no proofs God exists as real to substantiate the Quran, Sunnah and Ahadith has divine authority.

On the limited basis of the Quran based on a non-proven God it is a serious derogatory insult to insist all humans [including me] are born Muslims.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-02-2016, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is a very bad analogy.

It is accepted by consensus via UN every human born on Earth must belong to a Nation or country based on international laws which are man-made and can be changed.

On the other hand there is no consensus amongst all humans on Earth with reference to the Quran, Sunnah or Ahadiths. Besides there is no proofs God exists as real to substantiate the Quran, Sunnah and Ahadith has divine authority.

On the limited basis of the Quran based on a non-proven God it is a serious derogatory insult to insist all humans [including me] are born Muslims.

I am sorry if you find it offensive, but it is a believe shared by virtually every Muslim. One purpose of this forum is to clarify what Muslims believe.

There are belives I find to be offensive to me in many ideologies, but I find that in knowing what those believes are I gain a better understanding of the adherent. Although I do ask why they believe such.


To me I find it very logical to believe that every person is Muslim until they attain the age of being able to make informed free will choices. As Islam finds no fault in what a person does or does not do do with out knowledge or free will. A person who has not reached the age of knowing and ability has not yet achieved free will and should not be held accountable They get a free pass to heaven if they die before attaining the ability to deliberately reject Islam.

We do not believe children are born in a state of original sin and need to be "Saved" to avoid Hell. Children are born innocent of all sin and are not capable of earning Hell, until they are capable of choosing Hell of their own free will.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2016, 01:35 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I am sorry if you find it offensive, but it is a believe shared by virtually every Muslim. One purpose of this forum is to clarify what Muslims believe.

There are belives I find to be offensive to me in many ideologies, but I find that in knowing what those believes are I gain a better understanding of the adherent. Although I do ask why they believe such.
There are many ideologies that are evil in nature but I am only aware that Islam is the only one that claim ALL humans are born Muslims.
(If there are any I am not aware of, there won't be many).

I agree this forum cover whatever that is related to Islam and Muslims.
However I would expect any Muslim to use their moral sense and compass to be aware that such a claim 'ALL humans are born Muslims' is itself an intrusion and impinges on the basic dignity of non-Muslims.

Quote:
To me I find it very logical to believe that every person is Muslim until they attain the age of being able to make informed free will choices. As Islam finds no fault in what a person does or does not do do with out knowledge or free will. A person who has not reached the age of knowing and ability has not yet achieved free will and should not be held accountable They get a free pass to heaven if they die before attaining the ability to deliberately reject Islam.

We do not believe children are born in a state of original sin and need to be "Saved" to avoid Hell. Children are born innocent of all sin and are not capable of earning Hell, until they are capable of choosing Hell of their own free will.
If Islam, on an overall basis [not personal basis to you] had not influenced SOME Muslims who are born with high tendencies and proclivities to commit terrible evils and violence around the world, I would not have minded such unilateral insulting statements.

The claim by Christianity that all are born sinners is in line with my claim that DNA wise ALL humans are potential beasts. This can be proven objectively based on the structure of the human DNA and human brain.
The continual improvements of All humans are to develop inhibitors and managing neurons to modulate this inherent unavoidable beastly potential to ensure it does not get out of control. Such a task is highly promoted within Eastern Religions with greater advancing precisions.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-04-2016, 12:58 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
I find the following challenge insults one's intelligence, i.e.

1. God authored Book X,
2. Produce another book like Book X,
3. If you cannot produce another book* like Book X, then God exists.

* or 10 verses, or a chapter, etc.

Except for Islam, no other religion has ever issued such a challenge.

Other religions, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, etc. would not bother to issue such a challenge to non-believers because to issue such a challenge would make them look stupid and insult their own intelligence.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top