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Old 05-15-2016, 11:50 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
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On an attitude of false arrogance, the Quran Allah challenged non-Muslims [infidels, kuffar] to produce a sura, ten surahs or the Quran the like thereof as in the following verses;
2:23. And if ye [infidels] are in doubt concerning that [Quran] which We [Allah] reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a sura or the like thereof, and call your witnesses [partners, gods] beside Allah if ye [infidels] are truthful.

10:38. Or say they [infidels]: He [Muhammad] hath invented it? Say [O Muhammad]: Then bring a surah like unto it, and call (for help) [from the partners, gods, angels] on all ye [infidels] can besides Allah, if ye [infidels] are truthful.

11:13. Or they [infidels] say: He hath invented it. Say [Muhammad]: Then bring ten surahs, the like thereof, invented, and call on everyone ye can beside Allah, if ye are truthful!

17:88. Say: Verily, though mankind and the Jinn should assemble to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof though they were helpers one of another.

28:49. Say (unto them [infidels], O Muhammad): Then bring a Scripture from the presence of Allah that giveth clearer guidance than these two [the Pentateuch and the Quran ] (that) I may follow it, if ye are truthful.

52:34. Then let them [infidels] produce speech [the Quran] the like thereof, if they [infidels] are truthful:
I have done very extensive research on the main religions [especially the Eastern religions] of the world and comparatively the Quran is one of the very lesser grade of holy texts amongst all the main religions, example,

1. Buddhism - e.g. Avatamsaka Sutra and many others.
2. Hinduism - Bhagavad Gita and many others
3. Taoism - Tao Te Ching
4. Christianity - the Gospels
5. Judaism - Torah [had not dig deep into this]

Therefore to accept the challenge of the Quran to produce a better holy text than the Quran, all we need to do is to produce the above holy texts.


Accepting the Challenge
To accept the challenge of 2:23 and 10:38 I produce
-I. the 4 Noble Truths and
-II. the Noble 8 Fold Paths
of Buddhism which is a million times more realistic and effective than any sura in the Quran;
A. The Four Noble Truths -4NT
1.The truth of dukkha (suffering, anxiety, stress)
2.The truth of the origin of dukkha
3.The truth of the cessation of dukkha
4.The truth of the path leading to the cessation of dukkha i.e. the 8FP below;

B. The Noble Eightfold Paths [8FP].
Wisdom
1 Right view
2 Right intention

Ethical conduct
3 Right speech
4 Right action
5 Right livelihood

Concentration
6 Right effort
7 Right mindfulness
8 Right concentration

C. Is Problem solved?
If not, go back to A above and go through the process,
If yes, review for improvements and standardization, then be aware [not worry over] of life problems at all times.


The 4NT & 8FP is a model of a very complete, systematic and effective generic problem solving technique that is applicable to every problem in life especially the mother of all problem, the existential dilemma or existential crisis.
The 4NT & 8FP is like a doctor's approach to diagnose a medical problem and find a cure to it, and such a model is used by all problem solvers.

My Point:
I have done extensive study of the Quran.
In comparison to the Quran, the above more superior texts and verses from Buddhism, other Eastern Religions and other main religions are much more superior to the Quran.
Thus the challenge of the Quran [re verses above] in thinking itself as most superior over the texts of other religion is based on false arrogance.

Agree/disagree? and provide justifications of why and how?

Last edited by Continuum; 05-16-2016 at 12:00 AM..
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Old 05-16-2016, 12:51 AM
 
6,342 posts, read 8,749,799 times
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I agree. I have studied religion more than most and read countless scriptures...and the Quran is, well, not all that impressive.

And the argument "it has to be read in original Arabic" doesn't fly either because aside from the Book of Mormon every scripture has been translated to English from something else, but many others are better than the Quran.

For example: The Thunder, Perfect Mind -- The Nag Hammadi Library

And the idea that poetry is a miracle is nice, but ultimately, it is very, VERY subjective.

Heck, I honestly think these words are finer and more beautiful than any found in the Quran:


"Should I fall out of love, my fire in the light
To chase a feather in the wind
Within the glow that weaves a cloak of delight
There moves a thread that has no end.

For many hours and days that pass ever soon
the tides have caused the flame to dim
At last the arm is straight, the hand to the loom
Is this to end or just begin?"


Now the question is, is Robert Plant a messenger of GOD?

Well, his words sure sound more heavenly than a large chunk of the Quran:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL7VgkqgFhQ

Now, if Muslims just said "well, that's just a part of the story and isn't the real proof and it is about faith, after all," that would be fine, but many still believe that no one can produce another Quran, which is obviously false.
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Old 05-16-2016, 01:13 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,723 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
On an attitude of false arrogance, the Quran Allah challenged non-Muslims [infidels, kuffar] to produce a sura, ten surahs or the Quran the like thereof as in the following verses;
2:23. And if ye [infidels] are in doubt concerning that [Quran] which We [Allah] reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a sura or the like thereof, and call your witnesses [partners, gods] beside Allah if ye [infidels] are truthful.

10:38. Or say they [infidels]: He [Muhammad] hath invented it? Say [O Muhammad]: Then bring a surah like unto it, and call (for help) [from the partners, gods, angels] on all ye [infidels] can besides Allah, if ye [infidels] are truthful.

11:13. Or they [infidels] say: He hath invented it. Say [Muhammad]: Then bring ten surahs, the like thereof, invented, and call on everyone ye can beside Allah, if ye are truthful!

17:88. Say: Verily, though mankind and the Jinn should assemble to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof though they were helpers one of another.

28:49. Say (unto them [infidels], O Muhammad): Then bring a Scripture from the presence of Allah that giveth clearer guidance than these two [the Pentateuch and the Quran ] (that) I may follow it, if ye are truthful.

52:34. Then let them [infidels] produce speech [the Quran] the like thereof, if they [infidels] are truthful:
I have done very extensive research on the main religions [especially the Eastern religions] of the world and comparatively the Quran is one of the very lesser grade of holy texts amongst all the main religions, example,

1. Buddhism - e.g. Avatamsaka Sutra and many others.
2. Hinduism - Bhagavad Gita and many others
3. Taoism - Tao Te Ching
4. Christianity - the Gospels
5. Judaism - Torah [had not dig deep into this]

Therefore to accept the challenge of the Quran to produce a better holy text than the Quran, all we need to do is to produce the above holy texts.


Accepting the Challenge
To accept the challenge of 2:23 and 10:38 I produce
-I. the 4 Noble Truths and
-II. the Noble 8 Fold Paths
of Buddhism which is a million times more realistic and effective than any sura in the Quran;
A. The Four Noble Truths -4NT
1.The truth of dukkha (suffering, anxiety, stress)
2.The truth of the origin of dukkha
3.The truth of the cessation of dukkha
4.The truth of the path leading to the cessation of dukkha i.e. the 8FP below;

B. The Noble Eightfold Paths [8FP].
Wisdom
1 Right view
2 Right intention

Ethical conduct
3 Right speech
4 Right action
5 Right livelihood

Concentration
6 Right effort
7 Right mindfulness
8 Right concentration

C. Is Problem solved?
If not, go back to A above and go through the process,
If yes, review for improvements and standardization, then be aware [not worry over] of life problems at all times.


The 4NT & 8FP is a model of a very complete, systematic and effective generic problem solving technique that is applicable to every problem in life especially the mother of all problem, the existential dilemma or existential crisis.
The 4NT & 8FP is like a doctor's approach to diagnose a medical problem and find a cure to it, and such a model is used by all problem solvers.

My Point:
I have done extensive study of the Quran.
In comparison to the Quran, the above more superior texts and verses from Buddhism, other Eastern Religions and other main religions are much more superior to the Quran.
Thus the challenge of the Quran [re verses above] in thinking itself as most superior over the texts of other religion is based on false arrogance.

Agree/disagree? and provide justifications of why and how?
I read your usual opinion.

The challenge in the Qur'an is not a challenge that the text of the Qur'an is a better text than any other religious text but that you should produce something like it if you think it is not from Allah but from a man. And then see how far you can succeed in comparison. That's the challenge!

Are you up to the challenge?
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Old 05-16-2016, 01:58 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I read your usual opinion.

The challenge in the Qur'an is not a challenge that the text of the Qur'an is a better text than any other religious text but that you should produce something like it if you think it is not from Allah but from a man. And then see how far you can succeed in comparison. That's the challenge!

Are you up to the challenge?
The above is not a smart/intelligent view at all.

For example, it would be stupid to ask me to produce an equivalent to a Quran in terms of text when I don't know Arabic. In this case, the only challenge you can direct is to one who is familiar with Arabic and the Arabic that the original Quran was revealed.
I don't think there are many who are familiar with the original Arabic of the Qureshi during Muhammad's time in the 7th century.
Therefore such a challenge is an impossible and useless [stupid] challenge.

For example the Tao Te Ching was written in the 6th Century BC in Chinese scripts which is not used any more in the present era.
Now, I challenge you to produce the like of the Tao Te Ching. If you and no one can, then I claim the Tao Te Ching was from a God who spoke to Lao Tzu.
This is obviously a stupid challenge and no Taoist would bother to raise.

Such is a stupid and childish challenge that no major religions had issued such a challenge.

The point is, if God is factored into the challenge, then one must proof God exists first. Otherwise don't use the following stupid circular logic, i.e.

1. The Quran is authored by God,
2. Who said so?
3. God in the Quran said so!
4. Does God in the Quran exists?
5. Yes, the Quran said so and because
6. The Quran is authored by God, goto [1] above

Without a proving God exists as real, the above is caught in a repeating loop.

If there is to be any challenge, the challenger must at least have the potentials to perform the challenge.
It is no point challenging a human to fly like an eagle. That would be stupidity.

Thus if you want any one to challenge any one to produce the like of a Quran, you must establish the justifiable criteria, i.e. in terms of spiritual quality, literal sameness, contents, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
The challenge in the Qur'an is not a challenge that the text of the Qur'an is a better text than any other religious text but that you should produce something like it ...
Though not specified, the context of any challenge is definitely [default] to produce something better or at least on par or similar.
Re 28:49 which imply something better, i.e. clearer.

28:49. Say (unto them [infidels], O Muhammad): Then bring a Scripture from the presence of Allah that giveth clearer guidance than these two [the Pentateuch and the Quran ] (that) I may follow it, if ye are truthful.

I have given you examples of other spiritual texts which are million times more clearer [in terms of spiritual guidance] than the Quran.

Last edited by Continuum; 05-16-2016 at 02:06 AM..
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Old 05-16-2016, 02:02 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I read your usual opinion.

The challenge in the Qur'an is not a challenge that the text of the Qur'an is a better text than any other religious text but that you should produce something like it if you think it is not from Allah but from a man. And then see how far you can succeed in comparison. That's the challenge!

Are you up to the challenge?
On a more specific note. No one has been able to write as much as a single original sentence in Qur'anic Arabic.

One of the most interesting things I have found about the Qur'an is that if a person only learns Qur'anic Arabic they will not be able to understand any other dialect of Arabic. but if a person learns any dialect of Arabic they will have np problem in understanding the Qur'an.

there were at least 7 dialects of Arabic being spoken on the Arabian peninsula while Muhammad(saws) was alive. The speaker of one could not understand a speaker of another dialect, yet they could understan the Qur'an.

Even today a speaker of the Moroccan dialect can not understand a syrian, Egytian or Saudi speaker nor can a speaker of Egyptian Arabic understnd Saudi or Moroccan yet they all can understand the Qur'an. But no person can carry on a conversation in Qur'anic Arabic.
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Old 05-16-2016, 02:13 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
On a more specific note. No one has been able to write as much as a single original sentence in Qur'anic Arabic.

One of the most interesting things I have found about the Qur'an is that if a person only learns Qur'anic Arabic they will not be able to understand any other dialect of Arabic. but if a person learns any dialect of Arabic they will have no problem in understanding the Qur'an.

there were at least 7 dialects of Arabic being spoken on the Arabian peninsula while Muhammad(saws) was alive. The speaker of one could not understand a speaker of another dialect, yet they could understan the Qur'an.

Even today a speaker of the Moroccan dialect can not understand a syrian, Egytian or Saudi speaker nor can a speaker of Egyptian Arabic understnd Saudi or Moroccan yet they all can understand the Qur'an. But no person can carry on a conversation in Qur'anic Arabic.
Quote:
One of the most interesting things I have found about the Qur'an is that if a person only learns Qur'anic Arabic they will not be able to understand any other dialect of Arabic. but if a person learns any dialect of Arabic they will have no problem in understanding the Qur'an.
No problem in understanding the Quran?

That is only based on your imagination and hope but that is not what is in reality.

Note the number of disputes and contentions between Muslims who could read the Quran in Arabic.

One major contention is between the Quran-Only Muslims and the rest of the Muslims who accept the Ahadiths as divine authority based on their understanding of the verses in Arabic re 'Obey the messenger.'
There are disputes and contention between the jihadists [ISIS, etc] and the moderates who read the Quran in Arabic.
There is the issue of 49:14 where Asad who was familiar with Arabic interpreted differently from the majority of Arabic scholars.
There are lots of other disputes and contention based the reading of the Quran in Arabic by those scholars who are very familiar with Arabic.

So your "No problem in understanding the Quran when reading the Quran in Arabic" is false!!

Last edited by Continuum; 05-16-2016 at 02:48 AM..
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Old 05-16-2016, 03:11 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
No problem in understanding the Quran?

Note the number of disputes and contentions between those who could read the Quran in Arabic.

One major contention is between the Quran-Only Muslims and the rest of the Muslims who accept the Ahadiths as divine authority based on their understanding of the verses in Arabic re 'Obey the messenger.'
There are disputes and contention between the jihadists [ISIS, etc] and the moderates who read the Quran in Arabic.
There is the issue of 49:14 where Asad who was familiar with Arabic interpreted differently from the majority of Arabic scholars.
There are lots of other disputes and contention based the reading of the Quran in Arabic by those scholars who are very familiar with Arabic.

So your No problem in understanding the Quran when reading the Quran in Arabic is false!!
because a person understands what was said, does not always equate to meaning they know the significance of it.

A person that understands any dialect of Arabic has no trouble in knowing what any word in the Qur'an is. this does not hold true for any other dialect for example the name for Morocco in various dialects ranges from Qued al Oussain, to Maroc, to Maghreb to Marrakesh. In the Moroccan dialect the word for girl is Bent while in Saudri it is B'nat. In the Saudi Dialect the word for city is madina while in Moroccan it is Do'ar Yet both recognize the Qur'anic madeenati as meaning city ( found in 7: 123)

The arguments among scholars is not over the understanding of what the words are but of the significance.

The average speaker of Moroccan Arabic has no trouble in translating Qur'anic Arabic to Moroccan nor does a speaker of Saudi Arabic have any trouble in translating Qur'anic Arabic to Saudi. Yet it is virtually impossible for the average speaker of Moroccan Arabic to translate Saudi Arabic and vice versa. I speak the Moroccan dialect and am completely lost with Saudi Arabic (N'cal bel Arbeea wellakeen ma naraf shee bel Sood) (I speak Arabic, but do not understand Saudi)
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Old 05-16-2016, 05:22 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,723 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The above is not a smart/intelligent view at all.
So you already accept defeat?

Quote:
For example, it would be stupid to ask me to produce an equivalent to a Quran in terms of text when I don't know Arabic.
If you don't know Arabic then you shouldn't be moaning about its challenge! You can try in English and claim it to be from God. Hell, I will be the first one to reject it, just as you reject the Qur'an to be from God.

Quote:
In this case, the only challenge you can direct is to one who is familiar with Arabic and the Arabic that the original Quran was revealed.
It's not my challenge but a challenge from God to those Arabs at the time the Qur'an was revealed and they thought it was from Muhammad.

Quote:
I don't think there are many who are familiar with the original Arabic of the Qureshi during Muhammad's time in the 7th century.
Therefore such a challenge is an impossible and useless [stupid] challenge.
Then you need to use your brain and understand that Muhammad (the Quraish) could not have produced it from himself as even his Quraish enemies were claiming that the language of the Qur'an sounds foreign. Therefore, the language of the Qur'an is not in Quraish dialect only.

Quote:
For example the Tao Te Ching was written in the 6th Century BC in Chinese scripts which is not used any more in the present era.
Now, I challenge you to produce the like of the Tao Te Ching. If you and no one can, then I claim the Tao Te Ching was from a God who spoke to Lao Tzu.
This is obviously a stupid challenge and no Taoist would bother to raise.
It does not have to be in Qur'anic Arabic or in Hebrew. You pick the language, write a book yourself and claim it to be from God. Let's see how far you get with it!

Quote:
Thus if you want any one to challenge any one to produce the like of a Quran, you must establish the justifiable criteria, i.e. in terms of spiritual quality, literal sameness, contents, etc.
Excuses, excuses and excuses! Just produce it in any language, of a spiritual quality you think should be from God, any content that would be from God, and claim it to be from God. See how far you would get with!

Quote:
Though not specified, the context of any challenge is definitely [default] to produce something better or at least on par or similar.
Re 28:49 which imply something better, i.e. clearer.

28:49. Say (unto them [infidels], O Muhammad): Then bring a Scripture from the presence of Allah that giveth clearer guidance than these two [the Pentateuch and the Quran ] (that) I may follow it, if ye are truthful.
In spiritual guidance from Allah! (Nothing to do with language.) Same or better in guidance from God.

Quote:
I have given you examples of other spiritual texts which are million times more clearer [in terms of spiritual guidance] than the Quran.
Then why don't YOU produce one that is not millions times but just ten times better than Allah's guidance in the Qur'an?
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Old 05-16-2016, 05:31 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,723 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
No problem in understanding the Quran?

That is only based on your imagination and hope but that is not what is in reality.
Woodrow is correct. All Arabs can read and understand Qur'anic Arabic even though their own Arabic differs.

Quote:
So your "No problem in understanding the Quran when reading the Quran in Arabic" is false!!
Compare to you, all Arabs can understand Qur'anic Arabic. You do not understand Arabic so you do not understand Qur'anic Arabic.
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Old 05-16-2016, 03:21 PM
 
6,342 posts, read 8,749,799 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I read your usual opinion.

The challenge in the Qur'an is not a challenge that the text of the Qur'an is a better text than any other religious text but that you should produce something like it if you think it is not from Allah but from a man. And then see how far you can succeed in comparison. That's the challenge!

Are you up to the challenge?
If you mean that it has to be in Arabic...I accept your challenge:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ayDSoQIDbw
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