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Old 05-16-2016, 12:31 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Allah in the Quran has stated the Quran was revealed in the Arabic Language so that Muslims who are Arabs can read and understand it easily in their own mother tongue. Here are the various verses that support this point;

42:7. [part] And thus we have inspired in thee [O Muhammad] a Lecture in Arabic, that thou mayest warn the mother town and those around it, and mayest warn of a Day of assembling whereof there is no doubt.

46:12. When before it [Quran] there was the Scripture of Moses, an example and a mercy; and [now] this [Quran] is a confirming Scripture in the Arabic language, that it [Quran] may warn those [infidels] who do wrong and bring good tidings for the righteous.

44:58 And We have made (this Scripture) easy in thy language only that they may heed.

54:17 And in truth We have made the Qur'an easy to remember; but is there any that remembereth?
54:22 And in truth We have made the Qur'an easy to remember; but is there any that remembereth?
54:32 And in truth We have made the Qur'an easy to remember; but is there any that remembereth?
54:40 And in truth We have made the Qur'an easy to remember; but is there any that remembereth?

19:97. And We make (this Scripture) easy in thy tongue, (O Muhammad) only that thou mayst bear good tidings therewith unto those [Muslims] who ward off (evil), and warn therewith the froward [willing contrary] folk [infidels].

14:4. And We [Allah] never sent a messenger save [except] with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them. Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Wise.
I don't dispute the Quran has been remembered by many Hafiz.

However from the many disputes and contentions between Muslims who are expert in Arabic, what Allah claimed the Quran as easy to understand is not true.
Therefore the claim by Allah that the Quran is easy & clear - is not true.
Since a supposedly God will not give statement that are not true, we can infer the Quran which has untruths could only be authored by humans, not a God.

Do you agree with the above points?
If not, why?
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Old 05-16-2016, 04:10 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Allah in the Quran has stated the Quran was revealed in the Arabic Language so that Muslims who are Arabs can read and understand it easily in their own mother tongue. Here are the various verses that support this point;

42:7. [part] And thus we have inspired in thee [O Muhammad] a Lecture in Arabic, that thou mayest warn the mother town and those around it, and mayest warn of a Day of assembling whereof there is no doubt.

46:12. When before it [Quran] there was the Scripture of Moses, an example and a mercy; and [now] this [Quran] is a confirming Scripture in the Arabic language, that it [Quran] may warn those [infidels] who do wrong and bring good tidings for the righteous.

44:58 And We have made (this Scripture) easy in thy language only that they may heed.

54:17 And in truth We have made the Qur'an easy to remember; but is there any that remembereth?
54:22 And in truth We have made the Qur'an easy to remember; but is there any that remembereth?
54:32 And in truth We have made the Qur'an easy to remember; but is there any that remembereth?
54:40 And in truth We have made the Qur'an easy to remember; but is there any that remembereth?

19:97. And We make (this Scripture) easy in thy tongue, (O Muhammad) only that thou mayst bear good tidings therewith unto those [Muslims] who ward off (evil), and warn therewith the froward [willing contrary] folk [infidels].

14:4. And We [Allah] never sent a messenger save [except] with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them. Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Wise.
I don't dispute the Quran has been remembered by many Hafiz.

However from the many disputes and contentions between Muslims who are expert in Arabic, what Allah claimed the Quran as easy to understand is not true.
Therefore the claim by Allah that the Quran is easy & clear - is not true.
Since a supposedly God will not give statement that are not true, we can infer the Quran which has untruths could only be authored by humans, not a God.

Do you agree with the above points?
If not, why?
The message of the Qur'an is very easy to understand and one must understand there is only one basic message in the entire Qur'an. That being "There is only one God(swt) and only he is to be worshiped" For the vast Majority of mankind that is all that needs to be understood. Outside of that there are many surah that apply to very few and only they will understand those. there probably are some things that only Muhammad(saws) understood such as the reason or meanings of the Lettered Surah. Why do certain Surahs in the Qur'an begin with Alif Laam Meem, Haa Meem, Yaa Seen. What is the significance of such terms or phrases?



But the message that is applicable to all people is quite clear and easy to understand. The Qur'anin some ways is individualized. each person will only understand what they need to understand. If we do not understand something, it is not meant for us to understand.

for each of us we will find that which is easy to understand, and that is what is necessary for us to understand. We will also come across things we have difficulty understanding and there it is our responsibility to learn more and there are also things we will never understand, because they are none of our concern.
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Old 05-16-2016, 05:38 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Allah in the Quran has stated the Quran was revealed in the Arabic Language so that Muslims who are Arabs can read and understand it easily in their own mother tongue. Here are the various verses that support this point;

42:7. [part] And thus we have inspired in thee [O Muhammad] a Lecture in Arabic, that thou mayest warn the mother town and those around it, and mayest warn of a Day of assembling whereof there is no doubt.

46:12. When before it [Quran] there was the Scripture of Moses, an example and a mercy; and [now] this [Quran] is a confirming Scripture in the Arabic language, that it [Quran] may warn those [infidels] who do wrong and bring good tidings for the righteous.

44:58 And We have made (this Scripture) easy in thy language only that they may heed.

54:17 And in truth We have made the Qur'an easy to remember; but is there any that remembereth?
54:22 And in truth We have made the Qur'an easy to remember; but is there any that remembereth?
54:32 And in truth We have made the Qur'an easy to remember; but is there any that remembereth?
54:40 And in truth We have made the Qur'an easy to remember; but is there any that remembereth?

19:97. And We make (this Scripture) easy in thy tongue, (O Muhammad) only that thou mayst bear good tidings therewith unto those [Muslims] who ward off (evil), and warn therewith the froward [willing contrary] folk [infidels].

14:4. And We [Allah] never sent a messenger save [except] with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them. Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Wise.
I don't dispute the Quran has been remembered by many Hafiz.

However from the many disputes and contentions between Muslims who are expert in Arabic, what Allah claimed the Quran as easy to understand is not true.
Therefore the claim by Allah that the Quran is easy & clear - is not true.
Since a supposedly God will not give statement that are not true, we can infer the Quran which has untruths could only be authored by humans, not a God.

Do you agree with the above points?
If not, why?
The statements in the Qur'an are true! If you, who can't understand the Qur'an, say that these statements are not true, doesn't mean that they are not true.
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Old 05-16-2016, 09:10 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The message of the Qur'an is very easy to understand and one must understand there is only one basic message in the entire Qur'an. That being

"There is only one God(swt) and only he is to be worshiped"

For the vast Majority of mankind that is all that needs to be understood.

Outside of that there are many surah that apply to very few and only they will understand those. there probably are some things that only Muhammad(saws) understood such as the reason or meanings of the Lettered Surah. Why do certain Surahs in the Qur'an begin with Alif Laam Meem, Haa Meem, Yaa Seen. What is the significance of such terms or phrases?



But the message that is applicable to all people is quite clear and easy to understand. The Qur'an in some ways is individualized. each person will only understand what they need to understand. If we do not understand something, it is not meant for us to understand.

for each of us we will find that which is easy to understand, and that is what is necessary for us to understand. We will also come across things we have difficulty understanding and there it is our responsibility to learn more and there are also things we will never understand, because they are none of our concern.
You are putting your own wrong words into God's mouth.

If there is only one basis message in the Quran, i.e.
"There is only one God(swt) and only he is to be worshiped"
why do the Quran claim it is the final revelation and the Quran will prevail over all other religion.

All other monotheistic religions also has the same basis message, i.e.
"There is only one God(swt) and only God is to be worshiped" at the highest level.

Your point is obviously very wrong.

A Muslim is one who has entered into a covenant with Allah and thus the Muslims must comply with ALL the terms and conditions as in the Quran, if not comply to the best he is capable of without slackening.

Because every Muslim must comply with the terms and conditions of the covenant in the Quran, each Muslim will make an attempt to understand Allah's words directly from the Quran or through secondary sources.

However in reality there are factions and differences between various groups of Muslims who has different interpretations of the verses in the Quran.

If the Quran is easy to understand as stated by Allah, then why are there so much differences in interpretation between scholars who read the Quran in Arabic?

These mess, confusions and differences in interpretation prove that what Allah stated 'Quran is easy to understand' is wrong and false.

Since a God is perfect, it only meant the Quran was authored by fallible [vulnerable to be wrong] humans.
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Old 05-16-2016, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The statements in the Qur'an are true! If you, who can't understand the Qur'an, say that these statements are not true, doesn't mean that they are not true.
You missed and did not address my point.

Muslim Group A: Verse A is X is true.
Muslim Group B: Verse A is Y is true.
Muslim Group C: Verse A is Z is true.

In the above example there are three truths to one proposition.
Logically and general there is only one truth to a proposition.
Therefore two of the Muslim Group must be wrong.

If the Quran is easy to understand, then Group A, B and C should arrive at the same one truth.

Because there are so much difference in interpretations between different groups of Muslims, we infer the Quran is not easy to understand.

If the Quran is easy to understand as stated by Allah, then why are there so much differences in interpretation between scholars who read the Quran in Arabic?

These mess, confusions and differences in interpretation prove that what Allah stated 'Quran is easy to understand' is wrong and false.

Since a God is perfect, it only meant the Quran was authored by fallible [vulnerable to be wrong] humans.
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Old 05-16-2016, 09:48 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 661,767 times
Reputation: 204
[quote=Continuum;44075263
claimed the Quran as easy to understand is not true.
Therefore the claim by Allah that the Quran is easy & clear - is not true.
Since a supposedly God will not give statement that are not true, we can infer the Quran which has untruths could only be authored by humans, not a God.

Do you agree with the above points?
If not, why?[/quote]
you are right
because
God's word can be translated to all world languages
There are other problems, such as some of the words can not be translated literally
Including the word ***** and ****
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Old 05-17-2016, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You missed and did not address my point.

Muslim Group A: Verse A is X is true.
Muslim Group B: Verse A is Y is true.
Muslim Group C: Verse A is Z is true.

In the above example there are three truths to one proposition.
Logically and general there is only one truth to a proposition.
Therefore two of the Muslim Group must be wrong.

If the Quran is easy to understand, then Group A, B and C should arrive at the same one truth.

Because there are so much difference in interpretations between different groups of Muslims, we infer the Quran is not easy to understand.

If the Quran is easy to understand as stated by Allah, then why are there so much differences in interpretation between scholars who read the Quran in Arabic?

These mess, confusions and differences in interpretation prove that what Allah stated 'Quran is easy to understand' is wrong and false.

Since a God is perfect, it only meant the Quran was authored by fallible [vulnerable to be wrong] humans.
While scholars do disagree over meanings there is full agreement that the message is "There is only one God(swt) and only he is to be worshiped."

Yes all of the previous revelations carried the same message. The Qur'an is nothing new and does not contain any message that was not previously given in the past. The being "There is only one God(swt) and only He is to be worshiped" but humans have consistently failed to do so. The Qur'an is the final time we will receive that message and the warnings of what will happen to those who fail to do so. There will no further warnings given to us, it is our fianl warning and we are now in a "Sink or Swim" scenario.
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Old 05-17-2016, 10:30 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You missed and did not address my point.

Muslim Group A: Verse A is X is true.
Muslim Group B: Verse A is Y is true.
Muslim Group C: Verse A is Z is true.

In the above example there are three truths to one proposition.
Logically and general there is only one truth to a proposition.
Therefore two of the Muslim Group must be wrong.
That means one must be right because it was easy for that group to understand.

You will have a point only if none could understand it.

Further, all of them did understand it as it was being revealed. There were no two interpretations of it at the time.

Quote:
If the Quran is easy to understand, then Group A, B and C should arrive at the same one truth.
If one or unbeliever can't understand it, it does not mean it is not easy to understand. All it means is that those who do not study it properly or do not try hard enough, miss the boat.

Quote:
Because there are so much difference in interpretations between different groups of Muslims, we infer the Quran is not easy to understand.
If even one Muslim understands it, I infer that it is easy to understand.

Quote:
If the Quran is easy to understand as stated by Allah, then why are there so much differences in interpretation between scholars who read the Quran in Arabic?
Their brains do not work the same way. For some it is easy to understand and for others it is not. Reality is that the Qur'an is easy to understand and was understood during the days it was being revealed. Your point would be valid only if it was never understood.

Quote:
These mess, confusions and differences in interpretation prove that what Allah stated 'Quran is easy to understand' is wrong and false.
It was understood quite easily so Allah was absolutely correct.

Quote:
Since a God is perfect, it only meant the Quran was authored by fallible [vulnerable to be wrong] humans.
That's why some fallible humans make mistakes in interpreting the Qur'an!
Instead of pointing finger at those who make mistakes in interpreting the verses, you blame the infallible.
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Old 05-17-2016, 10:02 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While scholars do disagree over meanings there is full agreement that the message is "There is only one God(swt) and only he is to be worshiped."

Yes all of the previous revelations carried the same message. The Qur'an is nothing new and does not contain any message that was not previously given in the past. The being "There is only one God(swt) and only He is to be worshiped" but humans have consistently failed to do so. The Qur'an is the final time we will receive that message and the warnings of what will happen to those who fail to do so. There will no further warnings given to us, it is our final warning and we are now in a "Sink or Swim" scenario.
It is ridiculous to claim the Quran is Final with the fact that reality is eternal.
How can Muslims claim to use a very crude 7th Century Book that is immutable [rigidly fixed] to represent dynamic eternity.
The claim of finality and immutability obviously contradict dynamic reality.

In contrast how the wiser and matured Buddhists and Taoists recognized the dynamic quality of reality and thus present principles like "impermanence" and the dynamic "Yin-Yang" to deal with the problems of human nature within reality.

The Quran is like a rigid fixed piece of wood that breaks easily while the Eastern principles are like the strong flexible bamboo that flow with the hurricanes of reality.

The "final warnings" and "Sink or Swim" of the Quran are really cheapskate low spiritual values with terrible side effects infecting SOME Muslims who are evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence around the world.
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Old 05-17-2016, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That means one must be right because it was easy for that group to understand.

You will have a point only if none could understand it.

Further, all of them did understand it as it was being revealed. There were no two interpretations of it at the time.

If one or unbeliever can't understand it, it does not mean it is not easy to understand. All it means is that those who do not study it properly or do not try hard enough, miss the boat.

If even one Muslim understands it, I infer that it is easy to understand.

Their brains do not work the same way. For some it is easy to understand and for others it is not. Reality is that the Qur'an is easy to understand and was understood during the days it was being revealed. Your point would be valid only if it was never understood.

It was understood quite easily so Allah was absolutely correct.
It is Allah who claimed in many verses the Quran is easy to understand. If that is the plain claim, then it must be easy to understand to the majority of humans without exceptions.

Allah is all powerful, thus if Allah claimed it is easy to understand, then Allah should present in such a way the majority can understand it easily.
But the reality is not the case because there are confusions in the understanding of the Quran amongst different groups of Muslims, e.g. between the Quran-Only and Quran + Ahadith groups. Within the Quran+Ahadith groups there are also differences between the different sects, Sufi Madhabs and other groups of Sunnis.

Since the reality is there are confusions amongst the various groups of Muslims, the Quran could have not authored by an all powerful God.
If it was really authored by a powerful God, there would be no confusions.
Therefore the Quran was authored by humans.

Quote:
That's why some fallible humans make mistakes in interpreting the Qur'an!
Instead of pointing finger at those who make mistakes in interpreting the verses, you blame the infallible.
You did not get my point.
I did not blame the infallible.

1. An all powerful infallible God will not author a difficult to interpret book.
2. The Quran is a difficult to interpret book [proven by difference amongst different groups].
3. Therefore the Quran was not authored by God.


Quote:
If even one Muslim understands it, I infer that it is easy to understand.
This is an example of a very unintelligent point.
Even if one of the 1.5 billion Muslims?

Note Quantum Mechanics [QM] is merely understood thoroughly by a few tens of thousands of people on Earth and QM is claimed to be a very difficult subject to understand.

You are really insulting your own intelligence with the above claim.

Last edited by Continuum; 05-17-2016 at 10:34 PM..
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