U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-27-2016, 09:52 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 664,404 times
Reputation: 204

Advertisements

I have provided evidence that the battle between the Persians and the Romans were in Antioch, and this is far from the Dead Sea location
And fell to the scientific miracle
now you say it is prophecy????
I think it's not a divine miracle, and this is the reason
1-Mohammed was working in trade and knows the power of the Roman
2-Mohammed he had information about the French and was among the companions of Salman the Persian
3-Predict the battle and its outcome is not a divine miracle
4-{Say: I do not have to hurt myself useful not only what, God willing, if I knew the unseen to Acetkthert of good and bad touched me} [Al norms / 188]
Mohamed admits that he does not know the unseen
5-Before the Gulf War in 1991 located
I had a book entitled Human hidden strength
It is the contents of some prophecies of Nostradamus
i was not interested in this chapter
But after the end of that war, I looked through that book and I wondered
And he described the terrible battle
After that I went to Syria, I bought this book
Did Nostradamus was a prophet ????
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-27-2016, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,589,410 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
the miracle relates to this have been fortold in the Qur'an before it took place and it took place during it was said it would happen.

“The Romans have been defeated in the lowest land, but after their defeat they will soon be victorious. Within three to nine years. The decision of the matter, before and after, is with God.” (Quran 30:2-4)

These verses, above, were revealed around 620 C.E, almost 7 years after the severe defeat of the Christian Byzantines at the hands of the idolater Persians in 613 – 614 C.E. Yet it was related in the verses that the Byzantines would shortly be victorious. In-fact, Byzantine had been so heavily defeated that it seemed impossible for the Empire to even maintain its very existence, let alone be victorious again.
Taking into account the context of reality and history, the prophecy is a farce and scam.

Note the following elements of reality and history;
1. God cannot exists as real.
2. Therefore the Quran can only be authored by a human or a group of people.
3. It is claimed [historical] Muhammad recited the Quran during 610-632AD
4. A complete Quran that match the present copy date back to only 1201AD.
5. The above leave possibility the Quran could be compiled based on hindsight and various historical information between 1201 and back to 610AD.
6. The human author[s] would likely have knowledge of the Battle of Antioch (613) and the Battle of Issus [622] or some other defeat-win battles.

Therefore there is no big deal miracle in the Quran, the Greeks lost and won against the Persians between a lapse of some period.
Another point is, since Allah is omniscient and all-knowing, Allah could have been specific with the period rather than 'soon they will be victorious..' In addition, since all-knowing, Allah should have mentioned the specific place or name the nearest town or city to that location.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-27-2016, 11:07 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,305,624 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
OK, the OP was talking about the issue of the battle taking place at the lowest place on earth. Go back and read the first post. THAT is what I want to discuss. And it certainly does matter if the correct translation of alardi is land or Earth. I see you have understood nothing I said, or you are looking for a red herring.
Although I speak the Darija (Moroccan arabic) fairly well. I am far from having the ability to teach Arabic Grammar, especially not MSA which the online translaters us.

But I can state a few things that may help. In Arabic there are no capital letters. To designate Names and other proper nouns what is used is a change in pronunciation This can be achieved iby a spelling variation or common usage. for example if I pronounce the letters Alef Lam Ha as Allah I am speakiking God but if I pronounce as illah I am speaking of god, if I pronounce it as 2 seperate words al lahI am speaking of "The Strong" Allardi can be pronounced as al alardi or as Al-Ardi. If I use alardi it is a proper name sor a specific thin. If I pronounce it as Al Ardi it can mean the earth, the land or a dozen other things. The Qur'an is using the pronunciation ardi meaning it is a Proper Capitalized Name.In my opinion It is most likely this planet we inhabit---Earth I have never seen any example of an Arabic speaker naming anything Land as a proper name.

Refering to the specific bame it is written ina manner that Makes it grammatically impossible to give it a gender or a plural الله
If I wanted to write allah as meaning the god that would be إله pronounced illah

My point being in this ayyar alardi is written and pronounced as a specific name.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-27-2016, 11:32 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 664,404 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Although I speak the Darija (Moroccan arabic) fairly well. I am far from having the ability to teach Arabic Grammar, especially not MSA which the online translaters us.

But I can state a few things that may help. In Arabic there are no capital letters. To designate Names and other proper nouns what is used is a change in pronunciation This can be achieved iby a spelling variation or common usage. for example if I pronounce the letters Alef Lam Ha as Allah I am speakiking God but if I pronounce as illah I am speaking of god, if I pronounce it as 2 seperate words al lahI am speaking of "The Strong" Allardi can be pronounced as al alardi or as Al-Ardi. If I use alardi it is a proper name sor a specific thin. If I pronounce it as Al Ardi it can mean the earth, the land or a dozen other things. The Qur'an is using the pronunciation ardi meaning it is a Proper Capitalized Name.In my opinion It is most likely this planet we inhabit---Earth I have never seen any example of an Arabic speaker naming anything Land as a proper name.

Refering to the specific bame it is written ina manner that Makes it grammatically impossible to give it a gender or a plural الله
If I wanted to write allah as meaning the god that would be إله pronounced illah

My point being in this ayyar alardi is written and pronounced as a specific name.
Holy words in classical Arabic
Most of the Arabs understand this language because it is the official language
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-28-2016, 06:42 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,305,624 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Taking into account the context of reality and history, the prophecy is a farce and scam.

Note the following elements of reality and history;
1. God cannot exists as real.
2. Therefore the Quran can only be authored by a human or a group of people.
3. It is claimed [historical] Muhammad recited the Quran during 610-632AD
4. A complete Quran that match the present copy date back to only 1201AD.
5. The above leave possibility the Quran could be compiled based on hindsight and various historical information between 1201 and back to 610AD.
6. The human author[s] would likely have knowledge of the Battle of Antioch (613) and the Battle of Issus [622] or some other defeat-win battles.

Therefore there is no big deal miracle in the Quran, the Greeks lost and won against the Persians between a lapse of some period.
Another point is, since Allah is omniscient and all-knowing, Allah could have been specific with the period rather than 'soon they will be victorious..' In addition, since all-knowing, Allah should have mentioned the specific place or name the nearest town or city to that location.
The problem is lack of proof is not proof something does not exist. If every Human believed God(swt) does not exist and no proof of his exisence has been found is not proof He does not exist..

One thing that a person needs to comprehend is God(swt) is not a physical being. The use of physical tools of measurement and quantification are not possible. .

A strange relationship exists between Atheists and Theists. Both agree God(swt) does not exist in the physical world. The difference arises as to if the physical realm is all that exists.

There is a whole different concept of existence betweenAtheists and Theists. Trying to come up a method of agreement as to what constitutes proof of God(swt) is a challenge. We have yet to even come up with agreed upon definitions.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-28-2016, 08:26 AM
 
1,884 posts, read 1,655,727 times
Reputation: 115
if you look at a mountain or a building or a tree or any thing similar and keep looking for a period of time or for ever ,
they will remain in their places and will not move , that is when you are on the earth
but if go up to the space and look at them from there you will see them moving with the earth rotation .

When did the science know about earth rotation?

In 1851 Jean Bernard Léon Foucault provided an experimental demonstration of the rotation of the Earth on its axis





The Holy Quran revealed about it 1400 years ago
"Thou seest the mountains and thinkest them firmly fixed: but they pass like the passing of the clouds: (such is) the artistry of God, who disposes of all things in perfect order: for he is well acquainted with all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 27:88)"













Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-28-2016, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,305,624 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Taking into account the context of reality and history, the prophecy is a farce and scam.

Note the following elements of reality and history;
1. God cannot exists as real.
2. Therefore the Quran can only be authored by a human or a group of people.
3. It is claimed [historical] Muhammad recited the Quran during 610-632AD
4. A complete Quran that match the present copy date back to only 1201AD.
5. The above leave possibility the Quran could be compiled based on hindsight and various historical information between 1201 and back to 610AD.
6. The human author[s] would likely have knowledge of the Battle of Antioch (613) and the Battle of Issus [622] or some other defeat-win battles.

Therefore there is no big deal miracle in the Quran, the Greeks lost and won against the Persians between a lapse of some period.
Another point is, since Allah is omniscient and all-knowing, Allah could have been specific with the period rather than 'soon they will be victorious..' In addition, since all-knowing, Allah should have mentioned the specific place or name the nearest town or city to that location.
If you are speaking of the written Qur'an, "4. A complete Quran that match the present copy date back to only 1201AD." is a true statement. Basically true in the concept of being distributed. The Qur'and written However th Qur'an written by Uthman were complete with the same Books I am not certain how many Uthman wrote, I believe it was 5. One, possibly 2 of them still exist. The one in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul is a certain one written by Uthman the Samakrand is either an original or an 8th Century copy of an original. Throughout the world there are several 7th or early 8th century copies of otiginal Uthman Qur'ans. So called Uthman because Uthman hand wrote them from memory (Uthman was an original Hafiz) the verification from other hafiz and from at least 7 others that used various scripts, depending upon the script the scribe used. (Until Uthman there was no standard Arabic Alphabet.

The Written word is a visual representation of the spoken word. As oral preservation requires consistency and memory We have become lazy and develoed the misconcption they are not required for written transmission. Unless we make an attempt at reading Medeival English. Very few English speakers are able to read the KJV First edition, if written with the original letters. A bit of Trivia the words Thee and Thou never appeared in olde English. That is the result of a scholatic error. The Letter Thorn was assumed by a biblical scholar as being pronounced as TH with out realizing the letter thorn was pronounced as Y the words Thee and thou were actually pronounced as Yee and You. An error that persists up to today and comes as a shock to a beginning Student of Old English.--My point being even the written word requires passed down memory and the reliance upon oral tradition.

Orally the Qur'an has been in it's current form since it was first revealed. The written form has to be constantly verified from the Oral form. Pronunciation and spellings change as letters evolve. The origianl written Arabic used only 3 letters for each word and there were no punctuation marks. Also the written form was often written as 114 individual Books.

some non-Qur'anic additions to written Qur'ans in 1201 were line numers, spaces between lines and in some cases spaces between individual words. also more punctuation marks were added to assist with the proper Tajweed pronunciation.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 05-28-2016 at 09:23 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-28-2016, 10:26 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,126 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Although I speak the Darija (Moroccan arabic) fairly well. I am far from having the ability to teach Arabic Grammar, especially not MSA which the online translaters us.

But I can state a few things that may help. In Arabic there are no capital letters. To designate Names and other proper nouns what is used is a change in pronunciation This can be achieved iby a spelling variation or common usage. for example if I pronounce the letters Alef Lam Ha as Allah I am speakiking God but if I pronounce as illah I am speaking of god, if I pronounce it as 2 seperate words al lahI am speaking of "The Strong" Allardi can be pronounced as al alardi or as Al-Ardi. If I use alardi it is a proper name sor a specific thin. If I pronounce it as Al Ardi it can mean the earth, the land or a dozen other things. The Qur'an is using the pronunciation ardi meaning it is a Proper Capitalized Name.In my opinion It is most likely this planet we inhabit---Earth I have never seen any example of an Arabic speaker naming anything Land as a proper name.

Refering to the specific bame it is written ina manner that Makes it grammatically impossible to give it a gender or a plural الله
If I wanted to write allah as meaning the god that would be إله pronounced illah

My point being in this ayyar alardi is written and pronounced as a specific name.
None of this relates to the issue.

The OP tried to claim that it was a miracle that Muhammed knew that a battle took place at the lowest place on earth. You even backed him up when you said:
"It (The quran) does say lowest place on Earth"

I proved to you that the quran does not say this. You agreed. Now you are back at it. So here we go again.

The miracle would be that Muhammed knew back then that this spot was the LOWEST PLACE ON EARTH. If that is what Muhammed said, which you and the OP claimed, then indeed that would be amazing! But that is NOT what was said. It only says 'a low land', or 'a nearby land'. Translators say ' a nearby land'. There is nothing about being the lowest place/land/soil/spot ON EARTH.

What you tried to do was use one word twice (lowest land on earth) and give that word a meaning it did not have....that it referred to both land and the planet Earth. That was wrong at best and totally dishonest at worst....only you know which.

The Quran translations that I find all day that the battle took place at a nearby land. Nothing about the planet Earth or even a low place. Certainly nothing about the lowest land on planet Earth. Same with the translation pages. I do find 'earth' as a rarer and alternate translation, it is used as a synonym for soil, or land. Not this planet.

You claim:
Fee adna alardi فِي أَدْنَى الْأَرْضِ
A word for word translation is "In the Lowest Earth"


No. The translation is: In the lowest land. That is exactly what google says. Another translation says the lowest floor. I think maybe you found 'earth' as an alternate definition for land/soil so you used that to support your argument pretending that it meant the planet earth.

Here are the alternate translations.


land
أرض, قطعة أرض, بلد, يابسة, منطقة, بر
ground
سطح الأرض, أرض, أساس, سبب, تربة, أراضي
soil
تربة, أرض, تراب, بلد, أرض زراعية, وطن
territory
إقليم, منطقة, أرض, مقاطعة, قطر
earth
أرض, تراب, تربة, اليابسة, ثرى, بسيطة
grounds
أساس, أراضي, أرض
floor
طابق, أرضية, أرض, دور, الحد الأدنى, قعر
terrain
أرض, منطقة, بقعة, حقل من حقول المعرفة
site
موقع, في الموقع, مكان, موضع, مركز, أرض
underworld
الجحيم, أرض, عالم الرذيلة والإجرام, الجانب المقابل للأرض
topsoil
أرض, أرض زراعية
amphitheatre
مدرج, أرض

Not a thing about planets!! And if you look on the google website, LAND is the popular translation. If I put in only الْأَرْضِ then google says earth, but I have no idea why because land is the common usage. I checked on other translation sites and they say land, not earth, when they translate. I am betting that a Muslim was having this same argument and changed the translation. There is an option for contributions.

But it does not matter except for this. الْأَرْضِ means land, soil, ground, earth as in land, soil, ground. NOT THE PLANET EARTH.

So if you want to translate it as the lowest earth, fine. But all it means is the lowest land. Not much of a miracle.

This is your chance to do some honest thinking.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-28-2016, 10:42 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,126 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller View Post
if you look at a mountain or a building or a tree or any thing similar and keep looking for a period of time or for ever ,
they will remain in their places and will not move , that is when you are on the earth
but if go up to the space and look at them from there you will see them moving with the earth rotation .

When did the science know about earth rotation?

In 1851 Jean Bernard Léon Foucault provided an experimental demonstration of the rotation of the Earth on its axis



The Holy Quran revealed about it 1400 years ago
"Thou seest the mountains and thinkest them firmly fixed: but they pass like the passing of the clouds: (such is) the artistry of God, who disposes of all things in perfect order: for he is well acquainted with all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 27:88)"





Huh? I don't read that at all. There's nothing about rotation of earth on it's axis.
Imagine a first grade textbook saying this! Compare that verse with this:

https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/...ty-Set-1120255

And if this allah revealed it, why wasn't it known until 1851? Did Muslims keep it a top secret?

It's easy to retrofit vague rantings after the fact.
retroactive clairvoyance - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-28-2016, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,305,624 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Although I speak the Darija (Moroccan arabic) fairly well. I am far from having the ability to teach Arabic Grammar, especially not MSA which the online translaters us.

But I can state a few things that may help. In Arabic there are no capital letters. To designate Names and other proper nouns what is used is a change in pronunciation This can be achieved iby a spelling variation or common usage. for example if I pronounce the letters Alef Lam Ha as Allah I am speakiking God but if I pronounce as illah I am speaking of god, if I pronounce it as 2 seperate words al lahI am speaking of "The Strong" Allardi can be pronounced as al alardi or as Al-Ardi. If I use alardi it is a proper name sor a specific thin. If I pronounce it as Al Ardi it can mean the earth, the land or a dozen other things. The Qur'an is using the pronunciation ardi meaning it is a Proper Capitalized Name.In my opinion It is most likely this planet we inhabit---Earth I have never seen any example of an Arabic speaker naming anything Land as a proper name.

Refering to the specific bame it is written ina manner that Makes it grammatically impossible to give it a gender or a plural الله
If I wanted to write allah as meaning the god that would be إله pronounced illah

My point being in this ayyar alardi is written and pronounced as a specific name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
None of this relates to the issue.

The OP tried to claim that it was a miracle that Muhammed knew that a battle took place at the lowest place on earth. You even backed him up when you said:
"It (The quran) does say lowest place on Earth"

I proved to you that the quran does not say this. You agreed. Now you are back at it. So here we go again.

The miracle would be that Muhammed knew back then that this spot was the LOWEST PLACE ON EARTH. If that is what Muhammed said, which you and the OP claimed, then indeed that would be amazing! But that is NOT what was said. It only says 'a low land', or 'a nearby land'. Translators say ' a nearby land'. There is nothing about being the lowest place/land/soil/spot ON EARTH.

What you tried to do was use one word twice (lowest land on earth) and give that word a meaning it did not have....that it referred to both land and the planet Earth. That was wrong at best and totally dishonest at worst....only you know which.

The Quran translations that I find all day that the battle took place at a nearby land. Nothing about the planet Earth or even a low place. Certainly nothing about the lowest land on planet Earth. Same with the translation pages. I do find 'earth' as a rarer and alternate translation, it is used as a synonym for soil, or land. Not this planet.

You claim:
Fee adna alardi فِي أَدْنَى الْأَرْضِ
A word for word translation is "In the Lowest Earth"


No. The translation is: In the lowest land. That is exactly what google says. Another translation says the lowest floor. I think maybe you found 'earth' as an alternate definition for land/soil so you used that to support your argument pretending that it meant the planet earth.

Here are the alternate translations.


land
أرض, قطعة أرض, بلد, يابسة, منطقة, بر
ground
سطح الأرض, أرض, أساس, سبب, تربة, أراضي
soil
تربة, أرض, تراب, بلد, أرض زراعية, وطن
territory
إقليم, منطقة, أرض, مقاطعة, قطر
earth
أرض, تراب, تربة, اليابسة, ثرى, بسيطة
grounds
أساس, أراضي, أرض
floor
طابق, أرضية, أرض, دور, الحد الأدنى, قعر
terrain
أرض, منطقة, بقعة, حقل من حقول المعرفة
site
موقع, في الموقع, مكان, موضع, مركز, أرض
underworld
الجحيم, أرض, عالم الرذيلة والإجرام, الجانب المقابل للأرض
topsoil
أرض, أرض زراعية
amphitheatre
مدرج, أرض

Not a thing about planets!! And if you look on the google website, LAND is the popular translation. If I put in only الْأَرْضِ then google says earth, but I have no idea why because land is the common usage. I checked on other translation sites and they say land, not earth, when they translate. I am betting that a Muslim was having this same argument and changed the translation. There is an option for contributions.

But it does not matter except for this. الْأَرْضِ means land, soil, ground, earth as in land, soil, ground. NOT THE PLANET EARTH.

So if you want to translate it as the lowest earth, fine. But all it means is the lowest land. Not much of a miracle.

This is your chance to do some honest thinking.
My point was that since Arabic does not have capital letter Prope Nouns are designated by pronunciation difference. The Qur'an is pronouncing it as alardi which in English is the name Earth with a capital E, to use it to mean the earth (not as a name), the pronunciation is al'ardi a pause between al and ardi.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top