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Old 08-05-2016, 04:59 AM
 
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The Sunnah is what has been recommended by the Prophet (pbuh) and a Hadith is a speech by the Prophet (pbuh) stating in his own words that which has been exposed to him by Allah.
Madhab is only a school of thought that must comply with the Book of Allah. Each one is merely a thought of reaching the same goal.
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Old 08-06-2016, 07:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Yes the Quran mentioned it is the deen & millat of Abraham which preceded Muhammad.
That's not the only thing mentioned in the Qur'an about Abraham. There are quite a few more things mentioned in the Qur'an about Abraham.

Quote:
Doctrinally a Muslim can only accept whatever is mentioned in the Quran with reference to the previous revelations and acknowledge the historical element that Abraham was the pioneer.
Not only we can accept whatever is in the previous revelations but we cannot reject anything in the previous revelations unless we are guided through the Qur'an to disregard it or reject for future.

Quote:
The Quran also mentioned the Torah and Gospels had been corrupted.
No, it does not!

Quote:
Since when it was corrupted was not mentioned.
So you claim "it was mentioned" and then say "since it was mentioned". That's not being very clever, is it?

Quote:
Therefore a Muslim cannot rely on what is stated in the Torah and Gospels as divine authority for compliance.
The Qur'an verifies and confirms what is true in the Torah and the Gospels in their hands at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an. Whatever we are not to comply with is also mentioned in the Qur'an.

Quote:
You mentioned certain rulings from the Torah, e.g. circumcision is obligatory on the Muslims as a divine ordination.

However on what authority can any decide on any matter that is outside the ambit of the Quran recited by Muhammad in 610-632 AD?
It will contradict the Qur'an.
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Old 08-06-2016, 07:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If somethng is the previous scripture is in conflit with the Qur'an, the Qur'an takes precedence. If it is not mentioned in the Qur'an and is not in conflict with anything in the Qur'an it is still applicable.
That is the correct approach.
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Old 08-06-2016, 07:55 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,044,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farazhussain View Post
The Sunnah is what has been recommended by the Prophet (pbuh)...
This is often believed by people in such a way that limits are often crossed beyond what is really the Sunnah of the Prophet. According to the Qur'an, the only thing the Prophet/Messenger was to deliver was the message of the Qur'an, recommend the Qur'an and nothing from himself:

[5.92] And obey Allah and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that only a clear deliverance of the message is (incumbent) on Our messenger.

[5.99] Nothing is
(incumbent) on the messenger but to deliver(the message), and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide.

[13.40] And We will either let you see part of what We threaten them with or cause you to die, for only the delivery of the message is
(incumbent) on you, while calling (them) to account is Our (business).

[29.18] And if you reject (the message), nations before you did indeed reject (the message); and nothing is incumbent on the messenger but a plain delivering (of the message).

Quote:
Originally Posted by farazhussain View Post
...and a Hadith is a speech by the Prophet (pbuh) stating in his own words that which has been exposed to him by Allah.
The prophet was not to change the words of Allah into his own words (6:34). That would be corruption of Allah's words.

The Qur'an is Hadith of Allah, and is the Best Hadith (39:23). There is a lot more than that in the hadith books written by men two centuries later. No other hadith was to be believed by men other than the Hadith of Allah (45:6, 77:50).

Quote:
Originally Posted by farazhussain View Post
Madhab is only a school of thought that must comply with the Book of Allah. Each one is merely a thought of reaching the same goal.
Correct!
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Old 08-06-2016, 11:08 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Not only we can accept whatever is in the previous revelations but we cannot reject anything in the previous revelations unless we are guided through the Qur'an to disregard it or reject for future.
You are wrong on the above. It does not work that way.

It is mentioned all over the Quran that the Torah and Injil had been corrupted by the Jews and Christians over time.
For example;
9:30. And -the Jews say:. Ezra is the son of Allah, and
-the Christians say: The Messiah [Jesus] is the son of Allah.
That is their [infidels] saying with their mouths.
They [infidels] imitate the saying of those [infidels of old] who disbelieved of old.
Allah (himself) fighteth against them [infidels].
How perverse are they [infidels]!
The above concepts within the Gospel is definitely not acceptable by Allah of the Quran.

The only copies of the Torah and Injil are the ones that exist at the present.

Muslims cannot simply accept whatever is in the present Torah and Injil.
The only effective way is to match the existing Torah and Injil with the Quran and accept whatever is in the Torah and Injil that is agreeable with the Quran.
There is no other way.
In that case, a Muslim should just stick to the Quran and do not have to refer to the Torah and Injil since the Quran claim it is the final and perfected copy.

I understand you are trying to support the point re male circumcision which was not mentioned in the Quran.
Male circumcision is not in the Quran but practiced by Muslims as a tradition and supposedly for its health claim just like brushing teeth is recommended to all humans at present.

Quote:
The Qur'an verifies and confirms what is true in the Torah and the Gospels in their hands at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an. Whatever we are not to comply with is also mentioned in the Qur'an.
But ultimately the easiest is to match the Quran with the Torah and Injil then accept what is agreeable in the other books.
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Old 08-07-2016, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are wrong on the above. It does not work that way.

It is mentioned all over the Quran that the Torah and Injil had been corrupted by the Jews and Christians over time.
For example;
9:30. And -the Jews say:. Ezra is the son of Allah, and
-the Christians say: The Messiah [Jesus] is the son of Allah.
That is their [infidels] saying with their mouths.
They [infidels] imitate the saying of those [infidels of old] who disbelieved of old.
Allah (himself) fighteth against them [infidels].
How perverse are they [infidels]!
The above concepts within the Gospel is definitely not acceptable by Allah of the Quran.

The only copies of the Torah and Injil are the ones that exist at the present.

Muslims cannot simply accept whatever is in the present Torah and Injil.
The only effective way is to match the existing Torah and Injil with the Quran and accept whatever is in the Torah and Injil that is agreeable with the Quran.
There is no other way.
In that case, a Muslim should just stick to the Quran and do not have to refer to the Torah and Injil since the Quran claim it is the final and perfected copy.

I understand you are trying to support the point re male circumcision which was not mentioned in the Quran.
Male circumcision is not in the Quran but practiced by Muslims as a tradition and supposedly for its health claim just like brushing teeth is recommended to all humans at present.

But ultimately the easiest is to match the Quran with the Torah and Injil then accept what is agreeable in the other books.
Actually most of the Tauret (Torah) is accepted. No copies of the Injil (Gospel of Jesus) exist, apparently it was never written or if written never accepted by any of the councils that decided what books would be in the NT. The Gospels of Mathew, Mark, John and Luke are not the Injil, but may possibly contain some quotes from the Injil.
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Old 08-07-2016, 03:46 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,044,056 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is mentioned all over the Quran that the Torah and Injil had been corrupted by the Jews and Christians over time.
For example;
9:30. And -the Jews say:. Ezra is the son of Allah, and
-the Christians say: The Messiah [Jesus] is the son of Allah.
That is their [infidels] saying with their mouths.
They [infidels] imitate the saying of those [infidels of old] who disbelieved of old.
Allah (himself) fighteth against them [infidels].
How perverse are they [infidels]!
9:30 does not say that the Torah and Injil had been corrupted by the Jews and Christians over time.

The Qur'an says, Muhammad is messenger of Allah. You say, Muhammad was not messenger of Allah. Does that mean that the Qur'an is corrupted by you?
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:05 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,096 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Actually most of the Tauret (Torah) is accepted. No copies of the Injil (Gospel of Jesus) exist, apparently it was never written or if written never accepted by any of the councils that decided what books would be in the NT. The Gospels of Mathew, Mark, John and Luke are not the Injil, but may possibly contain some quotes from the Injil.
The main contention of the accusation of corruption is the Torah and Injil do not emphasize on the prophesy of Muhammad as a messenger. It is obvious the main doctrine of the Injil, i.e. the concept of sonship, trinity and others are different from the Quran.

If there are such critical differences, the logical inference [from the Quran perspective] is the Injil and the Torah are corrupted. If otherwise then the Quran is wrong! This is why it is so important for the Quran to accuse the Torah and Injil had been corrupted since they were first revealed by the Allah of the Quran.
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,096 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
9:30 does not say that the Torah and Injil had been corrupted by the Jews and Christians over time.

The Qur'an says, Muhammad is messenger of Allah. You say, Muhammad was not messenger of Allah. Does that mean that the Qur'an is corrupted by you?
I stated the above is merely one example. It is so glaring that the concept of sonship and trinity is attributable to Jesus.
Btw, there are so much differences between the Biblical stories in the Quran when compared to the OT, so who is right and who is wrong.

As I mentioned above, to ensure the Quran is perfectly correct, the Quran MUST insist [condemned as in the Quran verses] the Torah and Injil were corrupted from their original versions when revealed by Allah to their respective prophets. Otherwise the Quran is cheating, lying and false.
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Old 08-08-2016, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The main contention of the accusation of corruption is the Torah and Injil do not emphasize on the prophesy of Muhammad as a messenger. It is obvious the main doctrine of the Injil, i.e. the concept of sonship, trinity and others are different from the Quran.

If there are such critical differences, the logical inference [from the Quran perspective] is the Injil and the Torah are corrupted. If otherwise then the Quran is wrong! This is why it is so important for the Quran to accuse the Torah and Injil had been corrupted since they were first revealed by the Allah of the Quran.
to say the Injil was corrupted you have to first produce a copy of the Injil. It was never saved. No Known written copies of it exist. Although it is possible the Gospel of Thomas (Which was declared Gnostic and not included in the Bible) or even the Gospel of Peter (also excluded from the Bible) may have been copied from the Injil and possibly some quotes of Jesus (a.s) in the 4 Gospels of Matthew, John, Mark and Luke are from the Injil. I personally feel the "Sermon on the Mount" is from the Injil.

Now to see what the Christians did to the Torah, nearly all of the NT contradicts the Torah

While Muslims agree with much of the Torah One must keep in mind Hebrew ceased being a spoken language by the First Century CE and did not beging being reconstructed as a spoken language until the late 1800s and much of it reconstructed from Arabic.

See the following links

Reconstruction of Pre-Exilic Biblical Hebrew

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reviva...ebrew_language

The problem is we can not be fully certain the Torah has been interpreted correctly. I feel is is almost certain parts are in doubt. It is noted there are differences between the Christian and Jewish interpretations of the Torah. At least one and possibly both are wrong. Although I believe the Jewish interpretation is closer to being correct than the Christian interpretation.

Recommended Reading | Torah of Messiah
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