U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-08-2016, 02:44 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
Reputation: 289

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The main contention of the accusation of corruption is the Torah and Injil do not emphasize on the prophesy of Muhammad as a messenger.
What do you mean by "contention of the accusation of corruption"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is obvious the main doctrine of the Injil, i.e. the concept of sonship, trinity and others are different from the Quran.
Doctrine does not mean Injil. Injil is what was preached (spoken Evangel) by Jesus. It was Gospel of Jesus. It was not written down there and then. Therefore, there is no point in you imagining that the Qur'an claims the Injil was corrupted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If there are such critical differences, the logical inference [from the Quran perspective] is the Injil and the Torah are corrupted.
It may be "YOUR logical inference" but not the "claim of the Qur'an".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-08-2016, 02:56 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I stated the above is merely one example.
Based on your "example", your claim is way off the mark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I mentioned above, to ensure the Quran is perfectly correct, the Quran MUST insist [condemned as in the Quran verses] the Torah and Injil were corrupted from their original versions when revealed by Allah to their respective prophets. Otherwise the Quran is cheating, lying and false.
Make up your mind as to what is in the Qur'an and what isn't in the Qur'an instead of saying what should be in the Qur'an.

It seems as if you made a claim against the Qur'an ingnorance but now you can't back it up from any verse of the Qur'an. That's what the Qur'an does to unbelieving people; drives them into error and astray because they do not believe it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-08-2016, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
to say the Injil was corrupted you have to first produce a copy of the Injil. It was never saved. No Known written copies of it exist. Although it is possible the Gospel of Thomas (Which was declared Gnostic and not included in the Bible) or even the Gospel of Peter (also excluded from the Bible) may have been copied from the Injil and possibly some quotes of Jesus (a.s) in the 4 Gospels of Matthew, John, Mark and Luke are from the Injil. I personally feel the "Sermon on the Mount" is from the Injil.

Now to see what the Christians did to the Torah, nearly all of the NT contradicts the Torah

While Muslims agree with much of the Torah One must keep in mind Hebrew ceased being a spoken language by the First Century CE and did not beging being reconstructed as a spoken language until the late 1800s and much of it reconstructed from Arabic.

See the following links

Reconstruction of Pre-Exilic Biblical Hebrew

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reviva...ebrew_language

The problem is we can not be fully certain the Torah has been interpreted correctly. I feel is is almost certain parts are in doubt. It is noted there are differences between the Christian and Jewish interpretations of the Torah. At least one and possibly both are wrong. Although I believe the Jewish interpretation is closer to being correct than the Christian interpretation.

Recommended Reading | Torah of Messiah
Note the claim by the Quran that the Torah and Injil are corrupted is so obvious by the following;

1. The Quran is perfect and the final words of Allah
2. The Quran claimed to confirm the original revealed Torah and Injil
3. The Quran claimed via many verses[listed in the other OP] the Torah and Injil are corrupted.
4. It is empirically proven [very obvious] the present Torah and Injil are different from the present Quran.
5. Since the Quran is perfect, thus the different Torah and Injil must be corrupted as claimed in 3.

From the above, there is no need to produce the originally revealed Torah and Injil which is impossible given the circumstances.
In fact, the Quran took advantage [exploited] of this impossibility to claim the Torah and Injil were corrupted since it was first revealed to the respective prophets.

If we can ever produced the original revealed Torah and Injil, they will exposed [empirically] the false claims by the Quran.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-08-2016, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
Reputation: 461
[quote=Khalif;45056776]What do you mean by "contention of the accusation of corruption"?The main contention or the main purpose of this accusation that the Torah and Injil was corrupted is related to the prophesy of Muhammad's as a messenger of Allah.

Quote:
Doctrine does not mean Injil. Injil is what was preached (spoken Evangel) by Jesus. It was Gospel of Jesus. It was not written down there and then. Therefore, there is no point in you imagining that the Qur'an claims the Injil was corrupted.
The central and main doctrine of Christianity is within the Injil.

Note in the other post I defined what I mean by 'corruption'.
The Quran claimed the Torah and Injil was corrupted, i.e. the original version revealed to the respective prophets were changed, edited, has omissions, over time. The proofs of this corruption is proven by the difference in its doctrines, stories, that is different from those of the Quran.

Quote:
It may be "YOUR logical inference" but not the "claim of the Qur'an".
What is the most credible conclusions other than a logical rational inference?
Are you saying opinions, dreams, speculations and falsehoods are better than rational logical inference. You are insulting your basic human intelligence on such a stand.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-08-2016, 11:43 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
What do you mean by "contention of the accusation of corruption"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The main contention or the main purpose of this accusation that the Torah and Injil was corrupted is related to the prophesy of Muhammad's as a messenger of Allah.
That has nothing to do with the accusation of the Qur'an "claiming" that the Torah and Injil are corrupted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The central and main doctrine of Christianity is within the Injil.
No. You are totally wrong. The whole Christianity depends on the event AFTER the Injil was revealed and preached by Jesus. It is the crucifixion and death on the cross event.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note in the other post I defined what I mean by 'corruption'.
In the other post, you claimed 'corruption' and presented it as the Qur'an claimed 'corruption'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Quran claimed the Torah and Injil was corrupted, i.e. the original version revealed to the respective prophets were changed, edited, has omissions, over time.
The Qur'an does not claim so; you claim so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The proofs of this corruption is proven by the difference in its doctrines, stories, that is different from those of the Quran.
Then it is your claim but not of the Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What is the most credible conclusions other than a logical rational inference?
It is still not the claim of the Qur'an but your own "conclusion" and "inference" dressed up as "credible" and "rational".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Are you saying opinions, dreams, speculations and falsehoods are better than rational logical inference. You are insulting your basic human intelligence on such a stand.
You make things up about the Qur'an claiming this and that and now about what I haven't even said but you have said.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-09-2016, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That has nothing to do with the accusation of the Qur'an "claiming" that the Torah and Injil are corrupted.
Obviously there are many other reasons, e.g. credibility, etc. but one of the main reason is because of the Jews and Christians messing with the prophesy of Muhammad as the messenger which made him very angry.

Quote:
No. You are totally wrong. The whole Christianity depends on the event AFTER the Injil was revealed and preached by Jesus. It is the crucifixion and death on the cross event.
Note the central point is the salvation of mankind as promised. The crucifixion and rise from death are merely events that confirmed what is promised by God.

Quote:
In the other post, you claimed 'corruption' and presented it as the Qur'an claimed 'corruption'.
Note all will agree context within the whole Quran is critical.
The Quran did state 'the Torah and Injil are "corrupted" and when we relate all the relevant verses relating the accusations of alterations and omissions of the holy texts from their original revelations, the right context is represented by the phrase 'corruption of the Torah and Injil'.
Do you expect me to repeat all the related verses at all times to get my point 'corruption of texts' across to you.
Common don't insult your intelligence in the effective use of concepts and context.

Quote:
The Qur'an does not claim so; you claim so.
Note my point above.
Don't be that stupid as far as the use of right context is concern.

Quote:
Then it is your claim but not of the Qur'an.
Obviously the Quran is not going to claim that itself is in part fake, false and accept that it plagiarize from the Torah and Injil.
Such a conclusion that the Quran plagiarize from the Torah and Injil, and they are different can be easily be analyzed by any independent objective person which is not you as a believer who MUST be bias at all costs.
Quote:
It is still not the claim of the Qur'an but your own "conclusion" and "inference" dressed up as "credible" and "rational".
Show me the proofs to your claim.
I have already given my rational explanation.

Quote:
You make things up about the Qur'an claiming this and that and now about what I haven't even said but you have said.
I have already presented by logical and rational views.
The fact that you just wave them off without countering with rational arguments show that you do not prefer logical and rational methods and what else but opinions and speculations.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-13-2016, 04:41 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Obviously there are many other reasons, e.g. credibility, etc. but one of the main reason is because of the Jews and Christians messing with the prophesy of Muhammad as the messenger which made him very angry.
That was not your point but your point was that "the Qur'an claimed Torah and Injeel" were corrupted. There is no such "claim" in the Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the central point is the salvation of mankind as promised. The crucifixion and rise from death are merely events that confirmed what is promised by God.
You are ignorant about the dependence on crucifixion and death of Christ on perceived salvation of Christians themselves.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-13-2016, 07:10 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the claim by the Quran that the Torah and Injil are corrupted is so obvious by the following;

1. The Quran is perfect and the final words of Allah
2. The Quran claimed to confirm the original revealed Torah and Injil
3. The Quran claimed via many verses[listed in the other OP] the Torah and Injil are corrupted.
4. It is empirically proven [very obvious] the present Torah and Injil are different from the present Quran.
5. Since the Quran is perfect, thus the different Torah and Injil must be corrupted as claimed in 3.

From the above, there is no need to produce the originally revealed Torah and Injil which is impossible given the circumstances.
In fact, the Quran took advantage [exploited] of this impossibility to claim the Torah and Injil were corrupted since it was first revealed to the respective prophets.

If we can ever produced the original revealed Torah and Injil, they will exposed [empirically] the false claims by the Quran.
There is no need to produce the original Torah or Injil.


But at least the Torah exists in copy.

There is no copy of the Injil , While the 4 Gospels of Mark. Luke, Matthew, and John exist in the Bible and the Gospels of Thomas, Peter, Mary, Barnabas and others exist among the Gnostics the Injil (Gospel of Jesus) no longer exists. It is possible that parts of the Injil are quoted in the other Gospels but that is not verifiable.

The Gospel of Thomas is a strong contender to being part of the Injil, but it was never accepted as part of the Bible except by the Coptics and the Thomason Christians of India.
An interesting work:

Gospel of Thomas (Lambdin Translation) -- The Nag Hammadi Library
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-13-2016, 11:40 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That was not your point but your point was that "the Qur'an claimed Torah and Injeel" were corrupted. There is no such "claim" in the Qur'an.

You are ignorant about the dependence on crucifixion and death of Christ on perceived salvation of Christians themselves.
Note the above is merely semantics.

I can easily changed it to the Quran claimed the Torah and Injil has been changed and verses are omitted [i.e. corrupted] from the original version that was recited to the respective prophets.

I understand most Christians emphasized on the rising of Christ from death which support the point that all Christian will also be able to rise from physical death. To me this is just the form of the essence of salvation to eternal life in heaven.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-13-2016, 11:44 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There is no need to produce the original Torah or Injil.


But at least the Torah exists in copy.

There is no copy of the Injil , While the 4 Gospels of Mark. Luke, Matthew, and John exist in the Bible and the Gospels of Thomas, Peter, Mary, Barnabas and others exist among the Gnostics the Injil (Gospel of Jesus) no longer exists. It is possible that parts of the Injil are quoted in the other Gospels but that is not verifiable.

The Gospel of Thomas is a strong contender to being part of the Injil, but it was never accepted as part of the Bible except by the Coptics and the Thomason Christians of India.
An interesting work:

Gospel of Thomas (Lambdin Translation) -- The Nag Hammadi Library
I thought I agree there there is no need to produce the original Torah and Injil.

But the fact remained the Quran claimed Torah and Injil has been corrupted [verses omitted or changed]. Thus the present copies are different from the original version recited to the respective prophets.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top