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Old 08-14-2016, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I thought I agree there there is no need to produce the original Torah and Injil.

But the fact remained the Quran claimed Torah and Injil has been corrupted [verses omitted or changed]. Thus the present copies are different from the original version recited to the respective prophets.
My understanding is the Qur'an states the Jews and Christians had the true Qur'an but stopped following it.

The contention that the torah and Christian scriptures were changed is a latter concept by Islamic Scholars etc.

I personally believe that the torah while probably not changed in regards of what is written has had the meanings of some of the words changed.Primarily because Hebrew was lost as a spoken language for over 1000 years and not reconstructed (From Arabic and Aramaic) until the late 1800s.

As for Christian Scripture, none of what is included in the NT existed during the lifetime of Jesus(a.s.) There is nothing in the NT that can be considered a direct revelation from God(swt)
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Old 08-14-2016, 03:56 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the above is merely semantics.
You can't play with semantic card. Allah's words can't be changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I can easily changed it to the Quran claimed the Torah and Injil has been changed and verses are omitted [i.e. corrupted] from the original version that was recited to the respective prophets.
The Qur'an does not claim that either!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I understand most Christians emphasized on the rising of Christ from death which support the point that all Christian will also be able to rise from physical death. To me this is just the form of the essence of salvation to eternal life in heaven.
Christians have created that doctrine or idea. It was not from the Injil.

Jesus did not tell them so but that to have eternal life they should keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).
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Old 08-14-2016, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
My understanding is the Qur'an states the Jews and Christians had the true Qur'an but stopped following it.

The contention that the torah and Christian scriptures were changed is a latter concept by Islamic Scholars etc.

I personally believe that the torah while probably not changed in regards of what is written has had the meanings of some of the words changed.Primarily because Hebrew was lost as a spoken language for over 1000 years and not reconstructed (From Arabic and Aramaic) until the late 1800s.

As for Christian Scripture, none of what is included in the NT existed during the lifetime of Jesus(a.s.) There is nothing in the NT that can be considered a direct revelation from God(swt)
My understanding is the Quran states the Jews and Christians had the true Quran, then stopped following part of it and along time changed the main concept and introduced the concept of 'sonship'. This is obvious a corruption of the original revelation in accordance to Islam. And this is ultimately confirmed when the Muslims read the present Quran.

Note the Quran stated there were some Christians who were following the proper Islam during Muhammad's time but the Quran they are relying would have been lost for good because there are no evidence of such a Bible to date or the teaching were not written down.

Thus based on what is in the present Bible, it is obvious from the Muslims's view that the present NT is corrupted as justified that its central doctrine is different from Islam's central doctrine.

When the Quran condemned the concept of sonship of the Christians, it is also obvious the Quran is claiming the Christian's essence, Gospels or the supposed Injil was corrupted then.
Therefore 'sonship' = corruption of the essence of Islam.
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Old 08-14-2016, 11:11 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You can't play with semantic card. Allah's words can't be changed.
In the first place there is no real Allah. What follows on the various issue can be semantics as in this case.

Quote:
The Qur'an does not claim that either!
Note my reply to Woodrow above.
When the Quran condemned the concept of sonship of the Christians, it is also obvious the Quran is claiming the Christian's essence, Gospels or the supposed Injil was corrupted then.
Therefore 'sonship' = corruption of the essence of Islam.

Quote:
Christians have created that doctrine or idea. It was not from the Injil.
I did not state it was from the Original Injil [Islamic view].
What is supposed to be revealed to Jesus for the Christians is the original Injil.
But when Muslims read at present what is supposed to be the Injil from Allah to the Christians, it is obvious the concept of sonship therein is against the central doctrine of Islam.
Therefore the supposed-Injil revealed to Jesus for the Christians was corrupted.
In other words what was revealed to Jesus by Allah for the Christian is the real Injil but what the Christians has is the pseudo-Injil, i.e. corrupted.

Personally, there is no issues with the holy texts [NT] of the Christians which is an improvement over the OT in terms of absolute moral maxims re killing and other moral elements.

The problem is with Muhammad or a group of people who plagiarized bits and pieces the OT and NT for their personal interests and condemned the text of others with no solid justifications and understanding of human nature.
Worst the Quran regressed without the absolute moral maxim re killing and as a consequences the reality is the terrible evils and violence around the world at the present, i.e.

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Old 08-15-2016, 11:00 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My understanding is the Quran states the Jews and Christians had the true Quran, then stopped following part of it and along time changed the main concept and introduced the concept of 'sonship'. This is obvious a corruption of the original revelation in accordance to Islam. And this is ultimately confirmed when the Muslims read the present Quran.
Jews and Christians had the Taurat and Injil respectively. The Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad.

The Qur'an does not say that the Jews and Christians corrupted the Taurat and Injil respectively. The Qur'an does say that they did not observe the Taurat. Nowhere in the Qur'an it says that they corrupted the text of the Taurat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the Quran stated there were some Christians who were following the proper Islam during Muhammad's time but the Quran they are relying would have been lost for good because there are no evidence of such a Bible to date or the teaching were not written down.
Why are you making it all up as you go along?

The Qur'an states nothing of the sort you are attributing to the Qur'an here. Which Qur'an are you reading now?
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