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Old 05-22-2016, 12:08 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While the madhabs have a strong influence on the average Muslim the secondary source of the 4 Madhabs is the Sunnah not the Ahadith although some of the sunnah may have been interpolated from the Ahadith most of it came from the traditions passed down from the Sahabah.
Woodrow LI claimed as above the secondary sources of 4 Madhabs are from the Sunnah not the Ahadith.

However I am getting conflicting views from the following articles from Wiki:
Sunnah (sunnah, سنة, Arabic: [sunna], plural سنن sunan [sunan]) is the verbally transmitted record of the teachings, deeds and sayings, silent permissions (or disapprovals) of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, as well as various reports about Muhammad's companions.

A hadith (/ˈhdɪθ/[1] or /hɑːˈdiːθ/;[2] Arabic: حديث‎ ḥadīṯ, plural: hadithat, أحاديث, ʼaḥādīṯ[3]) is one of various reports describing the words, actions, or habits of the Islamic prophet, Muhammad.[3] The term comes from the Arabic meaning a "report", "account" or "narrative".
Hadith are second only to the Quran in developing Islamic jurisprudence,[4] and regarded as important tools for understanding the Quran and commentaries (tafsir) written on it.

A madhhab (Arabic: مذهب‎ maḏhab, IPA: [ˈmhb], "doctrine"; pl. مذاهب maḏāhib, [mˈːhɪb]) is a school of thought within fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence).
If the above states, "Hadith are second only to the Quran in developing Islamic jurisprudence" then it imply the Madhab rely on the Ahadith.


My point:
The above only reference to wiki which is not very credible.
What is the distinct difference between the Sunnah and the Ahadith?
Can any one show me with links from authorized sources what is the actual positions and relationship between the Sunnah, Ahadiths and Madhabs.
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Old 05-22-2016, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Woodrow LI claimed as above the secondary sources of 4 Madhabs are from the Sunnah not the Ahadith.

However I am getting conflicting views from the following articles from Wiki:
Sunnah (sunnah, سنة, Arabic: [sunna], plural سنن sunan [sunan]) is the verbally transmitted record of the teachings, deeds and sayings, silent permissions (or disapprovals) of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, as well as various reports about Muhammad's companions.

A hadith (/ˈhdɪθ/[1] or /hɑːˈdiːθ/;[2] Arabic: حديث‎ ḥadīṯ, plural: hadithat, أحاديث, ʼaḥādīṯ[3]) is one of various reports describing the words, actions, or habits of the Islamic prophet, Muhammad.[3] The term comes from the Arabic meaning a "report", "account" or "narrative".
Hadith are second only to the Quran in developing Islamic jurisprudence,[4] and regarded as important tools for understanding the Quran and commentaries (tafsir) written on it.

A madhhab (Arabic: مذهب‎ maḏhab, IPA: [ˈmhb], "doctrine"; pl. مذاهب maḏāhib, [mˈːhɪb]) is a school of thought within fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence).
If the above states, "Hadith are second only to the Quran in developing Islamic jurisprudence" then it imply the Madhab rely on the Ahadith.


My point:
The above only reference to wiki which is not very credible.
What is the distinct difference between the Sunnah and the Ahadith?
Can any one show me with links from authorized sources what is the actual positions and relationship between the Sunnah, Ahadiths and Madhabs.
The ahadith are part of Sunnah.

Sunnah is the emulating the practices of Muhammaad and His followers. The Sources for Sunnah were the traditional practices of the Sahabah (The companions of Muhammad) The Madhabs actually began developing at the time of Muhammad(saws) Sharia is any of the Madhabs.

The beginning of Shariah (Madhabs) predate the compilation of any Ahadith. Which was not yet required as people were still consisting of those who actually knew the Sahada, The Grandparents of many were of the Sahabah. This was the primary source of Sunnah. the formation of the madhabs predates the named schools

It is thought that the first three generations after Prophet Muhammad’s death (632 AD) are the most important in relation to Islam’s cultural and religious development. This epoch is eferred to as the First Century of slam, but it is also a ime shrouded in obscurity due to the lack of historical evidence. During that period, many important and distinguishing characteristics of Islamic law were founded while the newfound Islamic society established its own legal institutions. During most of the first century of Islam, Islamic law did not exist by definition. As it were in the times of Prophet Muhammad, legislation and law

The background and formation of the Four Schools of Islamic Law | Irini Kakoulidou - Academia.edu


Originally the developing Shafi'i Madhab relied only on the Ahadith as the source of sunnah but as it evolved The entire known Sunnah not just that related in the ahadith became important

Towards the end of the 9th century, the ideological clashes that Al Shafi’i’s presence brought in Islamic legislature had subsided for the most part. The tradition of Sunnah , in other words the practice of the Prophet Muhammad’s teachings in Islamic jurisprudence had been introduced and solidified
16
.The background and formation of the Four Schools of Islamic Law | Irini Kakoulidou - Academia.edu
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 05-22-2016 at 08:51 PM..
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Old 05-22-2016, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Source of Authority for the 4 Madhabs

SHAI'I
Shafi'iyyah was the third school of Islamic jurisprudence. According to the Shafi'i school the paramount sources of legal authority are the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Of less authority are the Ijma' of the community and thought of scholars (Ijitihad) exercised through qiyas. The scholar must interpret the ambiguous passages of the Qur'an according to the consensus of the Muslims, and if there is no consensus, according to qiyas.

HANBALI
The Hanbali School is the fourth orthodox school of law within Sunni Islam. It derives its decrees from the Qur'an and the Sunnah, which it places above all forms of consensus, opinion or inference. The school accepts as authoritative an opinion given by a Companion of the Prophet, providing there is no disagreement with anther Companion. In the case of such disagreement, the opinion of the Companion nearest to that of the Qur'an or the Sunnah will prevail.
'
MALIKI
Malikiyyah is the second of the Islamic schools of jurisprudence. The sources of Maliki doctrine are the Qur'an, the Prophet's traditions (hadith), consensus (ijma'), and analogy (qiyas). The Malikis' concept of ijma' differed from that of the Hanafis in that they understood it to mean the consensus of the community represented by the people of Medina. (Overtime, however, the school came to understand consensus to be that of the doctors of law, known as 'ulama.)

HANAFI
The Hanafiyyah School is the first of the four orthodox Sunni schools of law. It is distinguished from the other schools through its placing less reliance on mass oral traditions as a source of legal knowledge. It developed the exegesis of the Qur'an through a method of analogical reasoning known as Qiyas. It also established the principle that the universal concurrence of the Ummah (community) of Islam on a point of law, as represented by legal and religious scholars, constituted evidence of the will of God. This process is called ijma', which means the consensus of the scholars. Thus, the school definitively established the Qur'an, the Traditions of the Prophet, ijma' and qiyas as the basis of Islamic law. In addition to these, Hanafi accepted local customs as a secondary source of the law.

Note the "Traditions of the Prophet" equals Sunnah, unless it specifies ahadith as the source of Sunnah
Source for all the above:
Sunni Schools

Notice that in the Hanafi Madhab (Which is the largest school of Sharia) the Ahadith are not even considered.

Additional information regarding the Hanafi Madhab.

Hanafi legal methodology and the approach of the School to Usul-al-Fiqh

The legal rulings of all the Islamic Schools of law are based on the Quranic principles either in letter or in spirit or both. The Quran contains fairly substantial legislative material covering inheritance, marriage, divorce, laws of war, and several other civil and criminal issues. To solve further problems jurists resorted to the practices and words of the Prophet as contained in his Sunnah and after him, to the legal verdicts of those Companions who had been close enough to the Prophet to know what the Prophet had done had he been present at the moment. The Sunnah of the Prophet and the Companions was seen to emanate from the Quran itself as it was the principles of the Quran that they adopted and emulated in their lives. The Sunnah thus provided with valuable precedents in the legal practice. In an environment when a large number of Ahadith were being fabricated
http://hubpages.com/religion-philoso...-School-of-Law
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 05-22-2016 at 09:00 PM..
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Old 05-22-2016, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The ahadith are part of Sunnah.

Sunnah is the emulating the practices of Muhammaad and His followers. The Sources for Sunnah were the traditional practices of the Sahabah (The companions of Muhammad) The Madhabs actually began developing at the time of Muhammad(saws) Sharia is any of the Madhabs.

.The background and formation of the Four Schools of Islamic Law | Irini Kakoulidou - Academia.edu
Quote:
The Sunnah thus provided with valuable precedents in the legal practice. In an environment when a large number of Ahadith were being fabricated
http://hubpages.com/religion-philoso...-School-of-Law
Thanks and noted.
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Old 05-23-2016, 01:28 AM
 
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Islam is entirely in the revelations, guidance and commands of Allah (SWT). This is mainly the Qur'an and partly the previous revelations.

Sunnah is the way the messenger himself had obeyed (in practice) the commands of Allah that were for all believers in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an is now in written form but the Sunnah is passed on through practice only. It should be related to the Qur'an only but, with the passage of time, people have extended it to many other things that make no sense from the Qur'anic point of view.

Sunnah is not separate from the Qur'an but intrinsically linked to the Qur'an. Anything that has no link with the Qur'an is not Sunnah.

People have gone too far in regarding what is Sunnah and what is not. For example, not everything that Muhammad (pbuh) did is Sunnah. He lived in Arabia, ate Arab food, dressed in traditional Arab dress, spoke only Arabic, had more than 4 wives etc.etc. None of these actions are Sunnah that we must follow.

In the Qur'an, there is no mention of Sunnah of the Prophet but only the Sunnah of Allah (Sunnatullah); established way of Allah.

Hadith is often portrayed as sayings of Muhammad (pbuh) or attributed to him outside the sayings as Messenger of Allah. Messenger's duty is only to deliver the message (29:18, 64:12). His duty wasn't to create Islamic laws in addition to the laws in the Qur'an.

Ahadith (plural of hadith) are often incomplete and can give totally wrong impression about Islam. The only Hadith that really matters is the Hadith of Allah. Hadith of Allah is the best Hadith (39:23). No other hadith can replace or even match the Best Hadith, the Hadith of Allah. Muslims were not supposed to believe in any other hadith than the Hadith of Allah (45:6, 77:50) but, unfortunately, they have. This has diverted their attention away from the Qur'an.

[45.6] These are the ayat of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His ayat?

Madhab is only a school of thought that must comply with the Book of Allah. Each one is merely a thought of reaching the same goal. There were no madhabs when Islam was perfected by the last verse of the Qur'an in which were Islamic laws. This was done during the life of the messenger Muhammad. These madhabs were created afterwards and are merely source of disagreements if taken too literally.

That is my take on these issues. Wiki is clearly wrong and guided by the wrong people.
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Old 05-23-2016, 03:16 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Sunnah is not separate from the Qur'an but intrinsically linked to the Qur'an. Anything that has no link with the Qur'an is not Sunnah.

People have gone too far in regarding what is Sunnah and what is not. For example, not everything that Muhammad (pbuh) did is Sunnah. He lived in Arabia, ate Arab food, dressed in traditional Arab dress, spoke only Arabic, had more than 4 wives etc.etc. None of these actions are Sunnah that we must follow.

In the Qur'an, there is no mention of Sunnah of the Prophet but only the Sunnah of Allah (Sunnatullah); established way of Allah.

Hadith is often portrayed as sayings of Muhammad (pbuh) or attributed to him outside the sayings as Messenger of Allah. Messenger's duty is only to deliver the message (29:18, 64:12). His duty wasn't to create Islamic laws in addition to the laws in the Qur'an.
I agree with you the SOLE authority of Islam [as present] rest on the Quran and NOTHING else.

I do not agree the other older revelations should be an imperative part of Islam [of the present].
Islam may adopt some of the older revelations based on traditions, etc. but non-compliance of such old traditions will not be technically punished as a sin by Allah as they are not within the terms and conditions of the covenant within the present Quran.

Nevertheless because more than 95% of Muslims adopt the Sunnah, Ahadith as having some degree of Divine Authority, we need to take them into consideration when discussing with those Muslims involved. These Muslims [adopting Quran, Sunnah & Ahadith] as divine and acting upon them must thus answer the criticisms thrown at them.
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Old 05-23-2016, 04:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I agree with you the SOLE authority of Islam [as present] rest on the Quran and NOTHING else.

I do not agree the other older revelations should be an imperative part of Islam [of the present].
Previous revelations are important to us as the Qur'an is not stand-alone revelation from Allah but a continuation of the previous revelations. This is why we are required to believe in the previous revelations as well as the Qur'an otherwise such believing would be pointless. The Qur'an is clear that our faith is the tradition of Abraham (2:130, 3:95, 16:123). It is Abraham's religion rather than a religion that began with Muhammad for the first time.

Quote:
Islam may adopt some of the older revelations based on traditions, etc. but non-compliance of such old traditions will not be technically punished as a sin by Allah as they are not within the terms and conditions of the covenant within the present Quran.
If it is not in the Qur'an but it is in the previous revelations that was a command for future then we must adhere to it as our deen is that of Abraham's tradition.

Quote:
Nevertheless because more than 95% of Muslims adopt the Sunnah, Ahadith as having some degree of Divine Authority, we need to take them into consideration when discussing with those Muslims involved.
Hadith books written long after the Qur'an have no divine authority. Even the Sunnah is not a divine authority but a practice related to the Qur'an only. It has no authority at all nor a body on its own.

Quote:
These Muslims [adopting Quran, Sunnah & Ahadith] as divine and acting upon them must thus answer the criticisms thrown at them.
Yes, they must, and should be rightly challenged where they go against the teachings of the Qur'an (the Divine Authority) in adopting to their assumed sunnah and hadith books. What they regard as Sunnah of the Prophet is often not Sunnah of the Prophet. For example, he married more than 4 wives. This cannot be Sunnah of the Prophet applicable to us because the Qur'an does not allow us. The Qur'an is always the deciding factor as to what we are required to do and which example of the prophet we are to emulate. It is never everything that he did as a man or even as a prophet.
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Old 05-23-2016, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Previous revelations are important to us as the Qur'an is not stand-alone revelation from Allah but a continuation of the previous revelations. This is why we are required to believe in the previous revelations as well as the Qur'an otherwise such believing would be pointless. The Qur'an is clear that our faith is the tradition of Abraham (2:130, 3:95, 16:123). It is Abraham's religion rather than a religion that began with Muhammad for the first time.

If it is not in the Qur'an but it is in the previous revelations that was a command for future then we must adhere to it as our deen is that of Abraham's tradition.
Yes the Quran mentioned it is the deen & millat of Abraham which preceded Muhammad.

Doctrinally a Muslim can only accept whatever is mentioned in the Quran with reference to the previous revelations and acknowledge the historical element that Abraham was the pioneer.

The Quran also mentioned the Torah and Gospels had been corrupted.
Since when it was corrupted was not mentioned.
Therefore a Muslim cannot rely on what is stated in the Torah and Gospels as divine authority for compliance.

You mentioned certain rulings from the Torah, e.g. circumcision is obligatory on the Muslims as a divine ordination.

However on what authority can any decide on any matter that is outside the ambit of the Quran recited by Muhammad in 610-632 AD?
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Old 05-23-2016, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Yes the Quran mentioned it is the deen & millat of Abraham which preceded Muhammad.

Doctrinally a Muslim can only accept whatever is mentioned in the Quran with reference to the previous revelations and acknowledge the historical element that Abraham was the pioneer.

The Quran also mentioned the Torah and Gospels had been corrupted.
Since when it was corrupted was not mentioned.
Therefore a Muslim cannot rely on what is stated in the Torah and Gospels as divine authority for compliance.

You mentioned certain rulings from the Torah, e.g. circumcision is obligatory on the Muslims as a divine ordination.

However on what authority can any decide on any matter that is outside the ambit of the Quran recited by Muhammad in 610-632 AD?
If somethng is the previous scripture is in conflit with the Qur'an, the Qur'an takes precedence. If it is not mentioned in the Qur'an and is not in conflict with anything in the Qur'an it is still applicable.

Jizya for example while not described inthe Qur'an is described in the earlier scriptures. From which come the basis for the rules as to who is subject to paying Jizya and how much. See this post and thread


Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The rules of who pays what in Jizyah was established long before Muhammad(saws) by the Jews and Christians of Arabia. There was no need to explain it. This seems to have been a local issue pertaining only to Mecca. The only mention I can find of it in the Qur'an is in 9:29

You will find Jizyah andDhimmi in both judaism and Christianity either specifically or implied.

Genesis 49:15 And he saw that rest was good, and the land that it was pleasant; and bowed his shoulder to bear, and became a servant unto tribute.

Joshua 16:10 And they drave not out the Canaanites that dwelt in Gezer: but the Canaanites dwell among the Ephraimites unto this day, and serve under tribute.

Joshua 17:13 Yet it came to pass, when the children of Israel were waxen strong, that they put the Canaanites to tribute; but did not utterly drive them out.

Judges 1:28 And it came to pass, when Israel was strong, that they put the Canaanites to tribute, and did not utterly drive them out.

2 Samuel 20:24 And Adoram was over the tribute: and Jehoshaphat the son of Ahilud was recorder:

Ezra 4:13 Be it known now unto the king, that, if this city be builded, and the walls set up again, then will they not pay toll, tribute, and custom, and so thou shalt endamage the revenue of the kings.

Ezra 4:20 There have been mighty kings also over Jerusalem, which have ruled over all countries beyond the river; and toll, tribute, and custom, was paid unto them
.
Ezra 6:8 Moreover I make a decree what ye shall do to the elders of these Jews
for the building of this house of God: that of the kings goods, even of the tribute beyond the river, forthwith expenses be given unto these men, that they be not hindered
.
Esther 10:1 And the king Ahasuerus laid a tribute upon the land, and upon the isles of the sea.

Proverbs 12:24 The hand of the diligent shall bear rule: but the slothful shall be under tribute.

Matthew 17:25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

Matthew 22:17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?

Matthew 22:19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

Mark 12:14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?

Luke 20:22 Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?

Luke 23:2 And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.
Romans 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are Gods ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Romans 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)
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Old 05-23-2016, 10:02 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If somethng is the previous scripture is in conflit with the Qur'an, the Qur'an takes precedence.
If it is not mentioned in the Qur'an and is not in conflict with anything in the Qur'an it is still applicable.

Jizya for example while not described inthe Qur'an is described in the earlier scriptures. From which come the basis for the rules as to who is subject to paying Jizya and how much.
See this post and thread
If it is not in the Quran how can any one know for sure it is ordained by Allah.
It would be blasphemous to obey something that is not authorized, ordained nor sanctioned by Allah.

Jizya [l-jiz'yata الْجِزْيَةَ ج ز ى ] is mentioned in the Quran in 9:29, albeit not in details.
What is critical is the principle [policy, rule] and not the amount payable.
It is always the principle that is critical as to include details in every principle and policy would make any holy text too cumbersome.

Common sense from experiences in history will guide any authority to tax others reasonably in amounts otherwise they will kill the golden goose.
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