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Old 05-24-2016, 01:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Quran also mentioned the Torah and Gospels had been corrupted.
The Qur'an does not mention the Torah and the Gospels had been corrupted.

Quote the verse if you are truthful!
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Old 05-24-2016, 08:52 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No verse of the Qur'an has been abrogated. Each verse still applies or else it won't be in the Qur'an today.
To understand the Koran you should know canceled and any verse canceled in the Koran
Word ناسخ meaning Cancel and والمنسوخ meaning Verses that have been canceled,
Muslims are agreed on the passport canceled at all. They quoted on that transport and the mind:1- Occurrence canceled in the Qur'an:
It has been proved from his companions and followers and then of imams hardworking say the occurrence of copies in the Koran, and therefore they said: No one may interpret the Book of Allah only after the burner him and canceled knows, did not accept the words of canceled ignorance of it or denied, but stressed bearing down upon .
2. Types of caceled in the Qur'an:
And types of canceled to be in terms of raising the referee or reading or raising them together, which is on the three types:

.alnoa I:
canceled of recitation and government together, so that nullifies the work-governing fixed text, as well as delete the text from the Koran, and do not give it the rule of recitation in terms of prayer and worship him read out the health, and therefore not recognized in the Koran while collecting the Qur'an.
An example of this type: What Narrated by Muslim and Sunan Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her: it was revealed in the Qur'an: (ten feedings are denied information, Venschen with five, and he died Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him and they read in the Koran).
It is clear in this instance, the referee, a prohibition ten feedings information, engrossed. As well as the recitation of this verse abrogated, and therefore did not write Sahaba in the Koran while gathered Koran. What is meant by saying: «They are thus read from the Koran» that recitation copied did not inform it of all people, but after the death of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, and he died, and some people read it.

.alnoa II:
Copies judgment only the survival of the recitation, it nullifies any hard work rule text, with the survival of the text which is recited from the Koran and praying to read out and proves the covers of the Koran.
An example of this type: the verse: {And you who die and Ivron pairs testament to their spouses chattel to squint is output} [Al-Baqarah: 240]. This verse is installed in the Koran, and recited frequent as the Koran praying to be read and valid by prayer, with that fixed by the government, which must be stalking hula full to those who died by her husband, engrossed, saying the Almighty: {And you who die and Ivron pairs regards their four months and ten days} [Al-Baqarah: 234].
Has necessitated the deceased by her husband unaccustomed to four months and ten days, has proved to be the last to disembark from the first, it indicates that the first rule of a copy, though remained recited.

.alnoa III:
canceled of recitation with the survival of governance, any text that hard work by the rule remains constant and continuous, but strips the text of the Koran to prove what Almthelo provisions, Kaltabd read out and the health of its prayer and so on, do not hold it in the Koran.
An example of this type: What Bukhari, Muslim and others from the Omar bin al-Khattab and corrected son Hibbaan, from Abu ibn Ka'b, God bless them, they said: He was as down from the Koran (Sheikh Sheikha if committed zina Varjmoheme at all a punishment from Allah, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.)
What is meant by Sheikh Sheikha and divorced men and women, this provision, which is the stoning of divorced men and women, if adultery with a fixed and tight and in place. Note that this verse was left to exist between the covers of the Koran and on the tongues of readers, it is not permissible to pray, worship and be read.
benefit:
Very few writers who stood up to study the duplicator and copied, Fdoa any increase to the statement or restriction comes in one of the verses; copier verse that provision is in the wording of Commons or at all, and refused to asset-esteem that copies scientists, and considered the statement of Commons or the absolute restriction of such details that show the ruling . It is noteworthy Zarkashi examples of exaggerated some scientists say the idea of ​​copying, he says: It is nice that it was narrated in the book of God's gift to bin Salam blind: he said in the verse: {and eat the food for the love of the needy, orphans and prisoners} [Rights: 8]. Copied from this sentence and to be so captivated and captive polytheists, Vqri book him and hear his daughter, and when he ended up this place, she said, erred Daddy! In this book! He said to her: How, O my daughter ?! She said: The Muslims are unanimously agreed that the prisoner does not kill feed starving! And the right to canceled to have to move properly and explicitly from the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, or Sahabi says the verse as well as copied verse as well. Or judged when there is a discrepancy lump it, with the science of history; to know advanced and late.
The origin of the Quranic verses are all provisions are not copies, has countless scientists say copies in just a few verses, identified by Suyuti nineteen verse.
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Old 05-24-2016, 04:56 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
To understand the Koran you should know canceled and any verse canceled in the Koran
Word ناسخ meaning Cancel and والمنسوخ meaning Verses that have been canceled,
Naskh and mansookh does not mean cancel or cancelled completely as if God changed His mind. To understand it, you need to understand the Qur'an.
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Old 05-24-2016, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The Qur'an does not mention the Torah and the Gospels had been corrupted.

Quote the verse if you are truthful!
We have gone through this point before.
I will try to search for the previous posts on this.
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Old 05-24-2016, 10:21 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Immediately after this commandment was given to the Jews (Israelites), they had killed 3000 of their own people in one day, and then carried on the killing spree for many years on their way to Jerusalem. Therefore, you are wrong in adding [no ifs and no buts]. Your addition is not part of the Commandment but from Continuum only.
I am well aware there a lots of evils and violence in the Torah and Old Testaments. But that was not my point.

I was referring to Christianity [not Judaism] adopting the "Ten Commandments" without any "ifs" nor "buts" as moral maxims.

Quote:
Overriding maxim is general principle rather than a rule with no ifs and buts. There is no rigid rule in the Bible, thou shall not kill under any circumstance.
An overriding maxim is a principle which stands by itself without exceptions, i.e. no ifs nor buts. An overriding maxim is not a rigid rule.
If any one does kill which goes against the overriding maxim, then they better have good justifications.

On the other hand, there are no overriding principles and maxim relating to killings, violence and evils in the Quran.
In the Quran, Muslims can kill, commit evils and violence IF under certain conditions.
Once there is an "IF" then it cannot be an overriding maxim.

Quote:
Quite rightly so. In case of the Qur'an, Muslim is never to be the initial aggressor, and even if subjected to aggression, never to go beyond the limit. If the aggressor resorts to peace then a Muslim too must resort to peace. This is much clearer than brandishing the Commandment, "I shall not kill" in one hand and holding the sword in the other hand ready to kill.
As I had explained above, Once there is an "IF" [conditions even justifiable] then it cannot be an overriding maxim.

When there is an "IF" then it is open to interpretations and vulnerable to the "DUCK-RABBIT" duality of two truths.
For example, the Quran permit Muslims to fight/kill those who are threat [hinder, corruptions, wronged, mischiefs, trying to get rid of] to Islam.
When there are such words from God, these words can easily be seen, read and interpreted differently by those who are VERY sensitive and evil prone.

The point is a holy book must have an overriding maxim to the serious immoral evils like killing and violence, i.e. Thou Shall Not Kill, [no ifs no buts].
Thus if any believers has to face a decision kill or commit violence they better think 100 times to ensure what they are doing is fully justified within their own minds and that it is possible for God to forgive them.

However if in a holy book like the Quran where God sanction fighting and killing IF under certain conditions, then the evil prone Muslims will not think first but kill and try and find reasons to match God's sanctioned conditions.

This is what happened with the Cartoons case where SOME Muslims interpret the drawings of cartoons as threat to Islam.
Since Allah sanction and permit killing of those who threaten Islam, these evil prone kill non-Muslims because it is permitted by Allah as stated in the Quran.

This is why all the wiser and matured religions do not include nor permit killing and violence of humans that easily in their holy texts. The Quran is the ONLY holy texts that has very leading evil laden verses that influence and inspire SOME Muslims who are born with evils tendencies to commit terrible evils and violence around the world. I don't have to prove this because the evidence is so glaring.

Quote:
Do you want Muslims to do nothing, and get killed, even if the aggressor is not supposed to kill but does kill?
Use your common sense!

It is inbuilt and inherent is the majority [except the minority pacifists] that will be naturally defend themselves when attacked or face threats. This is a natural instinct and there is no need for a God to teach them. If you are familiar with human anthropology and history you will be very well aware of such a self-defense instinct.

If there is a God, it is God that has planted that natural instinct of self defense in the majority of humans. So there is no need for Allah to teach Muslims how to be defensive at all.

The point is the Quran is very wrong and made a big mistake for humanity in mixing politics, self-defense, evil and violence with the basic elements and purpose of religions which should be soteriological and eschatological in nature.

In Taoism for e.g. fighting, war, self-defense is distinctly separated from religion where they are dealt separately as a specialization, e.g. Sun Tzu Art of War where sophisticated strategies of war and self-defense are presented.

In Buddhism and Jainism there are no leading evil laden elements in their main religious texts. There are some evil elements in some verses in certain Buddhist texts, but they are like needles in a haystack and do not stand out at all. No Buddhists has ever shouted "Buddha-u-Akbar" nor quote verses from the Sutra whenever there are violence associated with Buddhists. e.g. Myanmar, Tibet. These are merely evil prone people who happened to be Buddhists and their violence are not inspired by the texts of Buddhism.

For Islam to progress, it must get rid of all the evil laden elements in the Quran, then no evil prone Muslims will have the opportunity to quote the Quran to justify they evils and violence.
The point is the evil laden elements in the Quran are totally unnecessary in the modern era. If there is any war [immoral in the first place] that must be fought, then such wars should be dealt from the independent political perspective and never mix with the religious perspective.

But because it in inherent in Islam, the Quran is final, perfect, complete from Allah, therefore cannot be changed, edited, and it is immutable for eternity.
As such there is no room at all for Islam to progress and adapt to changing progressive conditions of humanity.
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Old 05-24-2016, 10:38 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Naskh and mansookh does not mean cancel or cancelled completely as if God changed His mind. To understand it, you need to understand the Qur'an.
This is the real meaning
pied word in the Arabic language dictionaries, meaning: removed or invalidated. Of course, this is known as a sense that trumps any book conveys an image of him. According to a mediator for the Arabic Language Academy lexicon Cairo (p. 917) "Copy thing any removal, it said copies of God's verse which eliminated its verdict, and Aziz download: {the copying of verse or Nnasseha distanced fine them or like} the ruling government or said canceled law: any undone.
2 Imam Nasafi (Part I, p 116) interpretation of النسخ and the end of the Islamic ruling.
3 There is another concept of copying illustrated (Thunder verse 39), which says: "God erase what he wants," has commented on this verse, the great Islamic scholar Syed Qimni in the huge book (Islamics p. 568) saying, and here refers not only to be replaced, but to erase specific verses.
4 and the transfer of Ibn Kathir in his commentary (1, p. 104) from Ibn Jarir Commenting on the verse, "[Mannsch of verse] saying no: turn haram halal and haram halal, permissible and forbidden, and forbidden permissible." Consider Aadhuy wrote a chapter ??? !!! .



Does any sensible person would accept this speech? Does my speech tastiest applies these descriptions of cancellation and remove and erase and convert muslim haram halal and haram, I actually have from God? .



This is the concept duplicator and copied any cancellation verses and altered other revelations make it haram muslim and Sacred solver. And all this is happening in the Qur'an,

If you read the positive law and the provisions of contradictory

Do you recognize of that law???During the 24 years of God change his words????I wish you to decline precisely the meaning of repeal In the same book

The al-nask and almnsok does not know to understand the Koran

If God alters its provisions during the 24 years it is our right to inquire
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Old 05-24-2016, 10:49 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am well aware there a lots of evils and violence in the Torah and Old Testaments. But that was not my point.

I was referring to Christianity [not Judaism] adopting the "Ten Commandments" without any "ifs" nor "buts" as moral maxims.
Christianity shares with Judaism in these commandments which the principles of humanity and the divine teachings

An overriding maxim is a principle which stands by itself without exceptions, i.e. no ifs nor buts. An overriding maxim is not a rigid rule.
If any one does kill which goes against the overriding maxim, then they better have good justifications.

On the other hand, there are no overriding principles and maxim relating to killings, violence and evils in the Quran.
In the Quran, Muslims can kill, commit evils and violence IF under certain conditions.
Once there is an "IF" then it cannot be an overriding maxim.

As I had explained above, Once there is an "IF" [conditions even justifiable] then it cannot be an overriding maxim.

When there is an "IF" then it is open to interpretations and vulnerable to the "DUCK-RABBIT" duality of two truths.
For example, the Quran permit Muslims to fight/kill those who are threat [hinder, corruptions, wronged, mischiefs, trying to get rid of] to Islam.
When there are such words from God, these words can easily be seen, read and interpreted differently by those who are VERY sensitive and evil prone.

The point is a holy book must have an overriding maxim to the serious immoral evils like killing and violence, i.e. Thou Shall Not Kill, [no ifs no buts].
Thus if any believers has to face a decision kill or commit violence they better think 100 times to ensure what they are doing is fully justified within their own minds and that it is possible for God to forgive them.

However if in a holy book like the Quran where God sanction fighting and killing IF under certain conditions, then the evil prone Muslims will not think first but kill and try and find reasons to match God's sanctioned conditions.

This is what happened with the Cartoons case where SOME Muslims interpret the drawings of cartoons as threat to Islam.
Since Allah sanction and permit killing of those who threaten Islam, these evil prone kill non-Muslims because it is permitted by Allah as stated in the Quran.

This is why all the wiser and matured religions do not include nor permit killing and violence of humans that easily in their holy texts. The Quran is the ONLY holy texts that has very leading evil laden verses that influence and inspire SOME Muslims who are born with evils tendencies to commit terrible evils and violence around the world. I don't have to prove this because the evidence is so glaring.

Use your common sense!

It is inbuilt and inherent is the majority [except the minority pacifists] that will be naturally defend themselves when attacked or face threats. This is a natural instinct and there is no need for a God to teach them. If you are familiar with human anthropology and history you will be very well aware of such a self-defense instinct.

If there is a God, it is God that has planted that natural instinct of self defense in the majority of humans. So there is no need for Allah to teach Muslims how to be defensive at all.

The point is the Quran is very wrong and made a big mistake for humanity in mixing politics, self-defense, evil and violence with the basic elements and purpose of religions which should be soteriological and eschatological in nature.

In Taoism for e.g. fighting, war, self-defense is distinctly separated from religion where they are dealt separately as a specialization, e.g. Sun Tzu Art of War where sophisticated strategies of war and self-defense are presented.

In Buddhism and Jainism there are no leading evil laden elements in their main religious texts. There are some evil elements in some verses in certain Buddhist texts, but they are like needles in a haystack and do not stand out at all. No Buddhists has ever shouted "Buddha-u-Akbar" nor quote verses from the Sutra whenever there are violence associated with Buddhists. e.g. Myanmar, Tibet. These are merely evil prone people who happened to be Buddhists and their violence are not inspired by the texts of Buddhism.

For Islam to progress, it must get rid of all the evil laden elements in the Quran, then no evil prone Muslims will have the opportunity to quote the Quran to justify they evils and violence.
The point is the evil laden elements in the Quran are totally unnecessary in the modern era. If there is any war [immoral in the first place] that must be fought, then such wars should be dealt from the independent political perspective and never mix with the religious perspective.

But because it in inherent in Islam, the Quran is final, perfect, complete from Allah, therefore cannot be changed, edited, and it is immutable for eternity.
As such there is no room at all for Islam to progress and adapt to changing progressive conditions of humanity
.
This is true Thank you for this
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Old 05-25-2016, 02:25 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
We have gone through this point before.
I will try to search for the previous posts on this.
I did not ask for the previous post but tyhe verse of the Qur'an that says the Torah and the Gospels are corrupted.

Before you say, what you REALLY meant, I will help you as to know what the Qur'an says about the Taurat and Injil:

[5.68] Say: O followers of the Book! You follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

Is the Qur'an saying that they should keep up with corrupted Taurat and Injeel?
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Old 05-25-2016, 02:40 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I was referring to Christianity [not Judaism] adopting the "Ten Commandments" without any "ifs" nor "buts" as moral maxims.
Christianity hasn't adopted the "Ten Commandments". Christianity (at least the majority Christians) has made Jesus their God (one of the three persons in Trinity). This is not adopting even the first Commandment. There would have been no Crusades if they had really believed in "do not kill" as the moral maxim.
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Old 05-25-2016, 06:40 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Christianity hasn't adopted the "Ten Commandments". Christianity (at least the majority Christians) has made Jesus their God (one of the three persons in Trinity). This is not adopting even the first Commandment. There would have been no Crusades if they had really believed in "do not kill" as the moral maxim.
There are not 10 commandments in the Torah, there are 613 Mitzvah (commandments). what Christians call the 10 commandments are the 10 categories of commandments.
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