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Old 05-25-2016, 04:50 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 661,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post

Anyone claiming that verses of the Qur'an have been abrogated (meaning cancelled and made null and void completely) is unable to understand the Qur'an and unable to reconcile a verse in the Qur'an with another verse of the Qur'an on the same issue. So such a person thinks of an easy way out; the verse he can't reconcile with the other verses is abrogated. Thus the problem in his mind is solved. But, in reality, he has created another problem for himself; he is unable to tell how many verses of the Qur'an, he thinks, have been abrogated. They all have their own number in ignorance.

Conclusion: No verse of the Qur'an was ever made annul or forgotten. The latter is quite telling! Which verse of the Qur'an was forgotten if they are all there?
Praise be to Allah and peace and blessings be upon the Messenger of God and After:
Full canceled in the language of those involved: one: conversion, transport, and canceled of the book it is that converts from a book to book. The second: lift, is said to have copied any sun shade went by and nullified.
And canceled the terminology: is the removal of the settled from the jurisdiction of the speech Ward lax otherwise would have been the former firm and copies the Quran on the faces, one: to prove the line and copy the sentence as any commandment to relatives and verse several death strabismus and any dilution in the fighting, including the raise was originally recited from the Koran and hearts, as narrated from Abu Umaamah bin Sahl ibn Hanif: that some people from the Sahaba had a night to read the Sura did not mention them, but the name of Allah the Merciful Vdoa to the Prophet, may Allah bless him and told him, he said, peace be upon him: "that Surat lifted recited and provisions. " And copies does not enter unless provisions, that does not come back on the news is the view of the majority of scholars, no copies deny only the last denominations who belong to Islam and those Mahgjrn, saying the Almighty: (What's copying of verse or Nnasseha distanced fine them or the like) [Al-Baqarah: 106] and he says: (If turned things around Grand Ayatollah place and God knows what he reveals, they say: you are an impostor) [Nahl: 101]. These two verses Srihtan copies in existence in the Quran, were unanimous on the advances canceled exist, and this consensus does not matter what comes after Lord of the dispute who is not credible to differ.
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Old 05-25-2016, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
You made a number 613
you must gave us the proof from the Torah and the Gospel
Now that the Ten Commandments are at the origin of the ten Hebrew words that's true
I gave you links to Jewish sites. I also pasted parts from them and bolded the answers to your questions.

For an accurate explanation you should ask a Jew. the Torah is actually in 2 parts the Tanakh which is Written and the Talmud which was not to be written but is now Written. The Talmud Which is the most important part of the Tanakh is completely ignored in the Christian OT. The Christians will tell you the OT is the Tanakh (Jewish Bible), but any Jew will tell you it is not.

Here is a link to the Talmud

Halakhah.com Babylonian Talmud Online in English
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Old 05-25-2016, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
You made a number 613
you must gave us the proof from the Torah and the Gospel
Now that the Ten Commandments are at the origin of the ten Hebrew words that's true
To repeat her link to the 613 commandments each with it's location in the Bible

Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

You can also check there and see how Christians changed the Bible by changing the Tanakh into the OT

Here is the Tanakh in English with Jewish Commentary

The Complete Tanach with Rashi's Commentary - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
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Old 05-25-2016, 07:18 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 661,767 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I gave you links to Jewish sites. I also pasted parts from them and bolded the answers to your questions.

For an accurate explanation you should ask a Jew. the Torah is actually in 2 parts the Tanakh which is Written and the Talmud which was not to be written but is now Written. The Talmud Which is the most important part of the Tanakh is completely ignored in the Christian OT. The Christians will tell you the OT is the Tanakh (Jewish Bible), but any Jew will tell you it is not.

Here is a link to the Talmud

Halakhah.com Babylonian Talmud Online in English
My friend
I know the Bible in Arabic translation
And you're trying to confuse the Torah and the Talmud
Old Talmud Torah is called the Babylonian Talmud
it was known in the days of Christ
And I have not read the Talmud
That is why I tell you with confidence that the figure 613
It is not true
reason
Show you have an important reason in it's ten commandments
This Commandments represent the human conscience
The Ten Commandments, the highest Mosaic effects most notably in the Judeo-Christian heritage, seized in Moses carved on a tablet Sharia in Mount Horeb; and considered "the commandments of the mind, essential in forcing it so it can not be relieved with a commitment to it," [1] In the New Testament, when asked Christ : "no good deed must I do to inherit eternal life?", he replied: "Save the commandments", [2] was considered "compendium of the basic laws for the disposal of a human, Jews and Christians return to it in order to learn from them how to behave in a moral life", [1] and he said the Pope John Paul II: "not the ten commandments statutes committed by the god of a tyrant at random, she believes today and every day humanity and its future family life." [1] was inspired by Sharia memorize in a box ark of the Covenant is called the subject inside the tent called the tent of meeting, moved the children of Israel with them wherever they then transferred the coffin to the temple of Solomon royal time in Judah after its construction, and destroyed the destruction of the temple at the time of the Babylonian captivity, but that the contents of the tablets preserved in the Bible written in currently Mahtoatan in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 0.5, as Tvhoa on the lips of the people. [1]

In Hebrew heritage, called the Ten Commandments (עֲשֶׂרֶת הַדִּבְּרוֹת) any (Asert-Dvariom) means ten words or ten proverbs or ten issues.
Wills toward God

You shall have no other gods before me.
Does not make you a graven image, or any likeness of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow to them, nor Tabdhn.
Do not swear by the name of thy God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.

Wills toward the near

Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land which the Lord your God gives you ..The commandments to the community

do not kill.
Do not commit adultery.
do not steal.
Do not bear false witness.
You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his servant, nor his nation, nor ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that belongs to your neighbor.These are the Ten Commandments which stem from inside the conscience of every human being to
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Old 05-25-2016, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
My friend
I know the Bible in Arabic translation
And you're trying to confuse the Torah and the Talmud
Old Talmud Torah is called the Babylonian Talmud
it was known in the days of Christ
And I have not read the Talmud
That is why I tell you with confidence that the figure 613
It is not true
reason
Show you have an important reason in it's ten commandments
This Commandments represent the human conscience
The Ten Commandments, the highest Mosaic effects most notably in the Judeo-Christian heritage, seized in Moses carved on a tablet Sharia in Mount Horeb; and considered "the commandments of the mind, essential in forcing it so it can not be relieved with a commitment to it," [1] In the New Testament, when asked Christ : "no good deed must I do to inherit eternal life?", he replied: "Save the commandments", [2] was considered "compendium of the basic laws for the disposal of a human, Jews and Christians return to it in order to learn from them how to behave in a moral life", [1] and he said the Pope John Paul II: "not the ten commandments statutes committed by the god of a tyrant at random, she believes today and every day humanity and its future family life." [1] was inspired by Sharia memorize in a box ark of the Covenant is called the subject inside the tent called the tent of meeting, moved the children of Israel with them wherever they then transferred the coffin to the temple of Solomon royal time in Judah after its construction, and destroyed the destruction of the temple at the time of the Babylonian captivity, but that the contents of the tablets preserved in the Bible written in currently Mahtoatan in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 0.5, as Tvhoa on the lips of the people. [1]

In Hebrew heritage, called the Ten Commandments (עֲשֶׂרֶת הַדִּבְּרוֹת) any (Asert-Dvariom) means ten words or ten proverbs or ten issues.
Wills toward God

You shall have no other gods before me.
Does not make you a graven image, or any likeness of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow to them, nor Tabdhn.
Do not swear by the name of thy God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.

Wills toward the near

Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land which the Lord your God gives you ..The commandments to the community

do not kill.
Do not commit adultery.
do not steal.
Do not bear false witness.
You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his servant, nor his nation, nor ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that belongs to your neighbor.These are the Ten Commandments which stem from inside the conscience of every human being to
Look carefully at what you quoted.



In Hebrew heritage, called the Ten Commandments (עֲשֶׂרֶת הַדִּבְּרוֹת) any (Asert-Dvariom) means ten words or ten proverbs or ten issues.
Wills toward God`

They are divisions, issues or proverbs each containing part of the 613 Mitzva

The Ten Commandments were also given with a few small changes to the Children of Israel about 38 years later. This is recorded in the book of Deuteronomy in Chapter 5. All of The 613 Mitzvot are actually contained within these Ten Mitzvot. This does not mean that the 613 Mitzvot are easy to find there, or that they are performed just by observing these Ten. This is meant mostly in a spiritual sense, and because 5 of them have to do with our relationship with God, and 5 of them have to do with our relationships with each other. These Ten Commandments and The Seven Noachide Laws surely need to be taught and observed. This is a major goal of The Mitzvah Project and we need your help! Please learn these laws and follow them. Please remember that the laws of the Sabbath Day are not binding on everyone, however they are binding on Jewish people. If you are Jewish we ask that you learn more about Shabbas, and we want you to enjoy celebrating this weekly holiday.

The Ten Commandments | The Mitzvah Project
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Old 05-25-2016, 10:22 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 661,767 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Look carefully at what you quoted.



In Hebrew heritage, called the Ten Commandments (עֲשֶׂרֶת הַדִּבְּרוֹת) any (Asert-Dvariom) means ten words or ten proverbs or ten issues.
Wills toward God`

They are divisions, issues or proverbs each containing part of the 613 Mitzva

The Ten Commandments were also given with a few small changes to the Children of Israel about 38 years later. This is recorded in the book of Deuteronomy in Chapter 5. All of The 613 Mitzvot are actually contained within these Ten Mitzvot. This does not mean that the 613 Mitzvot are easy to find there, or that they are performed just by observing these Ten. This is meant mostly in a spiritual sense, and because 5 of them have to do with our relationship with God, and 5 of them have to do with our relationships with each other. These Ten Commandments and The Seven Noachide Laws surely need to be taught and observed. This is a major goal of The Mitzvah Project and we need your help! Please learn these laws and follow them. Please remember that the laws of the Sabbath Day are not binding on everyone, however they are binding on Jewish people. If you are Jewish we ask that you learn more about Shabbas, and we want you to enjoy celebrating this weekly holiday.

The Ten Commandments | The Mitzvah Project
Yes, from the beginning I told you there is no difference
And commandments of God means God's words
I asked you the source of the figure 613
My interest is Is it true honest
On Saturday at the Jewish sacred and this is not new
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Old 05-25-2016, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The same charge was made by the Jews when Jesus had brought a new message, and so did both the Jews and the Christians when the Qur'an was revealed.

Here is the passage with its context to show that the message in 2:106 is directed towards the People of the previous Book (followers of the Book):

[2.105] Those who disbelieve from among the followers of the Book do not like, nor do the polytheists, that the good should be sent down to you from your Lord, and Allah chooses especially whom He pleases for His mercy, and Allah is the Lord of mighty grace.

[2.106] Whatever ayatin
(message) We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?

Therefore, it is reference to God's "power over all things" and that He can send another message "similar or better"; the Injeel after the Taurat, and the Qur'an after the Injeel. Do you (People of the Book) not know that God has power over all things?

The verse 2:106 is not about verses of the Qur'an but about the verses of the previous message that had been forgotten and some verses were no longer needed such as about Sabbath.

As I stated previously, one needs to understand the Qur'an before one can understand the verse 2:106. It is not about any verse of the Qur'an being abrogated but parts of the previous messages that had been either forgotten or were no longer needed in that form otherwise there would be no need for the Qur'an.

Anyone claiming that verses of the Qur'an have been abrogated (meaning cancelled and made null and void completely) is unable to understand the Qur'an and unable to reconcile a verse in the Qur'an with another verse of the Qur'an on the same issue. So such a person thinks of an easy way out; the verse he can't reconcile with the other verses is abrogated. Thus the problem in his mind is solved. But, in reality, he has created another problem for himself; he is unable to tell how many verses of the Qur'an, he thinks, have been abrogated. They all have their own number in ignorance.

Conclusion: No verse of the Qur'an was ever made annul or forgotten. The latter is quite telling! Which verse of the Qur'an was forgotten if they are all there?
As a Muslim and believer you have no choice but to sway to what suit your beliefs, insisting 2:106 refers to abrogation of the old scriptures rather that the verses [ayat] within the Quran.

However the contexts of the Quran indicate otherwise.

Here are the verses related to abrogation
2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

13:39 Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.

16:101 When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.
Note this argument from an ex-Muslim for abrogation related to verses rather than whole scriptures.
The Problem of Abrogation in the Quran

There are four possibilities relating to the term 'abrogation' in the Quran, i.e.
• Muslim scholars of old hold to the concept that some ayahs in the Quran abrogate other ayahs in the Quran, but do not all hold to the same set of abrogated and abrogating ayahs.
• Other Muslim scholars are of the opinion that the Quran may abrogate the Quran as well as the Sunnah (deed or example of Mohammad) and vice versa.
• Some Muslim scholars hold that the Quran abrogates all the previous scriptures, specifically the scriptures sent to Musa and Isa, but not itself.
• Some Muslim scholars, especially of recent times do not believe in the concept of abrogation at all.
Faroog argued that 2:106, 13:39 and 16:101 are most effective in reference to the abrogation of the verses in the Quran rather than the whole scriptures like Torah or Injil. If Allah intended to abrogate the whole scriptures Allah would have used the term 'kitab' as used in similar contexts.

He argued that when the Quran refers to the Torah or Injil it use the term 'Kitab' but 2:106 refers to ayat (āyatin ءَايَةٍ ا ى ا ).

There are many cases in the Quran where abrogation need to be applied to enable the Quran to make sense.


An example that is often used to show the topic of abrogation as relevant and true in the Quran is the topic of wine drinking.
In early Islam, wine drinking and gambling were allowed - Surah 2:219:
2:219They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-
From this ayah it was taught that drinking and gambling could provide a benefit and also have bad effects. To identify that the practice of drinking wine was not uncommon among Muslims, another ayah was revealed that forbade the Muslims to come to prayer drunk, Surah 4:43:

Then the ayah Surah 5:93 was revealed to stop drinking wine since it is an abomination.
5:93 O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (Dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, - of Satan’s handiwork: Eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
If the concept of abrogation is not introduced then it shows there are contradiction and confusions in the Quran.
Therefore 2:106 refers to abrogation of the verses within the Quran rather than the whole scripture.

In fact there is no abrogation of the Torah and Injil as mentioned in the Quran.
What actually happened was the Jews and Christians corrupted the original revelations from Allah and thus these later corrupted versions of the scriptures are automatically not Islamic at all. There is no question of abrogation in this case.

There are many verses in the Quran that necessitate the applications of abrogation to enable them to make sense otherwise the Quran will look bad, e.g.;
• Surah 9:29 abrogating Surah 2:109
• Surah 2:185 abrogating Surah 2:184
• Surah 9:36 abrogating Surah 2:217 and Surah 45:14
Therefore, since in contexts there are many cases where there are variations and contradictions in the Quran between certain sets of verses, examples given above, verse 2:106 is most effective to be referred to abrogation of verses within the Quran rather than abrogating older scriptures.

Another point:
Re abrogation I agree in some cases it is not a matter of making the older verses null and void. I believe in some cases the older verse is still applicable where the circumstances warrant it but the latest verse override ultimately if need be.

Last edited by Continuum; 05-25-2016 at 11:14 PM..
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Old 05-25-2016, 11:31 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 661,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As a Muslim and believer you have no choice but to sway to what suit your beliefs, insisting 2:106 refers to abrogation of the old scriptures rather that the verses [ayat] within the Quran.

However the contexts of the Quran indicate otherwise.

Here are the verses related to abrogation
2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

13:39 Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.

16:101 When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.
Note this argument from an ex-Muslim for abrogation related to verses rather than whole scriptures.
The Problem of Abrogation in the Quran

There are four possibilities relating to the term 'abrogation' in the Quran, i.e.
• Muslim scholars of old hold to the concept that some ayahs in the Quran abrogate other ayahs in the Quran, but do not all hold to the same set of abrogated and abrogating ayahs.
• Other Muslim scholars are of the opinion that the Quran may abrogate the Quran as well as the Sunnah (deed or example of Mohammad) and vice versa.
• Some Muslim scholars hold that the Quran abrogates all the previous scriptures, specifically the scriptures sent to Musa and Isa, but not itself.
• Some Muslim scholars, especially of recent times do not believe in the concept of abrogation at all.
Faroog argued that 2:106, 13:39 and 16:101 are most effective in reference to the abrogation of the verses in the Quran rather than the whole scriptures like Torah or Injil. If Allah intended to abrogate the whole scriptures Allah would have used the term 'kitab' as used in similar contexts.

He argued that when the Quran refers to the Torah or Injil it use the term 'Kitab' but 2:106 refers to ayat (āyatin ءَايَةٍ ا ى ا ).

There are many cases in the Quran where abrogation need to be applied to enable the Quran to make sense.


An example that is often used to show the topic of abrogation as relevant and true in the Quran is the topic of wine drinking.
In early Islam, wine drinking and gambling were allowed - Surah 2:219:
2:219They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-
From this ayah it was taught that drinking and gambling could provide a benefit and also have bad effects. To identify that the practice of drinking wine was not uncommon among Muslims, another ayah was revealed that forbade the Muslims to come to prayer drunk, Surah 4:43:

Then the ayah Surah 5:93 was revealed to stop drinking wine since it is an abomination.
5:93 O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (Dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, - of Satan’s handiwork: Eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
If the concept of abrogation is not introduced then it shows there are contradiction and confusions in the Quran.
Therefore 2:106 refers to abrogation of the verses within the Quran rather than the whole scripture.

In fact there is no abrogation of the Torah and Injil as mentioned in the Quran.
What actually happened was the Jews and Christians corrupted the original revelations from Allah and thus these later corrupted versions of the scriptures are automatically not Islamic at all. There is no question of abrogation in this case.

There are many verses in the Quran that necessitate the applications of abrogation to enable them to make sense otherwise the Quran will look bad, e.g.;
• Surah 9:29 abrogating Surah 2:109
• Surah 2:185 abrogating Surah 2:184
• Surah 9:36 abrogating Surah 2:217 and Surah 45:14
Therefore, since in contexts there are many cases where there are variations and contradictions in the Quran between certain sets of verses, examples given above, verse 2:106 is most effective to be referred to abrogation of verses within the Quran rather than abrogating older scriptures.

Another point:
Re abrogation I agree in some cases it is not a matter of making the older verses null and void. I believe in some cases the older verse is still applicable where the circumstances warrant it but the latest verse override ultimately if need be.
First, I offer explanations Muslims

Secondly, I speak Arabic
These interpretations since the beginning of Islam
I would like to offer you the following service
Not to say That is intended previous books
Because it means that she was in the hands of Mohammed

We ask that you verses that canceled the previous books
Are you able to accept these demands?????
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Old 05-25-2016, 11:44 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 661,767 times
Reputation: 204
(Originally Posted by Continuum
As a Muslim and believer you have no choice but to sway to what suit your beliefs, insisting 2:106 refers to abrogation of the old scriptures rather that the verses [ayat] within the Quran.------)

However the contexts of the Quran indicate otherwise.
Modern interpretations will not stand up to these demands
The oldest verse you what the meaning of the word from the Arab References(The nnshk of verse or Nnasseha distanced fine them or similar. Did you know that God over all things.. He said Abu Muslim Asbahani interpreter: Something is not so in the Koran, saying the weak payoff Mrdhul. The arbitrariness of the answers about what happened copies, it is that the issue of preparing four months and ten days after strabismus not be on it the words unacceptable, and the issue of conversion to kiss the Kaaba, the sacred house did not have [p. 380] something, and copies Msaberp recognized for ten Heathens to Msaberp Monday, and that copies should be charity before Monologues Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and so on, and God knows best.
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Old 05-31-2016, 02:16 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As a Muslim and believer you have no choice but to sway to what suit your beliefs, insisting 2:106 refers to abrogation of the old scriptures rather that the verses [ayat] within the Quran.
There are Muslims who would say that 2:106 is about abrogation of Taurat and Injil (the old scriptures). They are just as wrong as those who say that any verse of the Qur'an has been abrogated by the Qur'an itself. I, a Muslim and believer, am not insisting that the Qur'an abrogates Taurat and Injil. Therefore, you are wrong in accusing me of doing so. I have already explained what I am saying about abrogation.

[2.106] Whatever ayatin (messages, revelations, signs, verses) We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?

Each verse is a message, revelation and sign. One can assume that abrogation mentioned is of the verses of the Qur'an but that would be quite fanciful when it is taken into account that "cause to be forgotten" is part of the verse 2:106. No verse of the Qur'an has been "forgotten". Therefore, the abrogation mentioned is not about the verses of the Qur'an but of some verses of previous revelations that were for only certain group of people or have now been forgotten. Ignore any part of this verse and you will get it wrong.

Quote:
Note this argument from an ex-Muslim for abrogation related to verses rather than whole scriptures.
The Problem of Abrogation in the Quran

There are four possibilities relating to the term 'abrogation' in the Quran, i.e.
• Muslim scholars of old hold to the concept that some ayahs in the Quran abrogate other ayahs in the Quran, but do not all hold to the same set of abrogated and abrogating ayahs.
• Other Muslim scholars are of the opinion that the Quran may abrogate the Quran as well as the Sunnah (deed or example of Mohammad) and vice versa.
• Some Muslim scholars hold that the Quran abrogates all the previous scriptures, specifically the scriptures sent to Musa and Isa, but not itself.
• Some Muslim scholars, especially of recent times do not believe in the concept of abrogation at all.
Faroog argued that 2:106, 13:39 and 16:101 are most effective in reference to the abrogation of the verses in the Quran rather than the whole scriptures like Torah or Injil. If Allah intended to abrogate the whole scriptures Allah would have used the term 'kitab' as used in similar contexts.
No wonder this guy is ex-muslim! He hasn't got a clue as to what is stated in the Qur'an. He is looking for "possibilities" to suit his ignorance.

Quote:
He argued that when the Quran refers to the Torah or Injil it use the term 'Kitab' but 2:106 refers to ayat (āyatin ءَايَةٍ ا ى ا ).
"Ayatin" does not mean only "verses" but also "messages", "revelations" and "signs". Each message, each verse, each revelation and each miracle is a "sign". Kitab is full revelation such as full Taurat, full Injil and full Qur'an. Combination of them all is also Kitab.

[17.12] And We have made the night and the day two signs (“ayatin”), then We have made the sign ("ayah") of the night to pass away and We have made the sign ("ayah") of the day manifest, so that you may seek grace from your Lord, and that you might know the numbering of years and the reckoning; and We have explained everything with distinctness.

[7:133] So We sent them the flood and the locusts and the vermin and the frogs and the blood--a succession of clear signs (ayatin). But they were arrogant and became guilty.


Quote:
There are many cases in the Quran where abrogation need to be applied to enable the Quran to make sense.
One needs sense to understand the Qur'an. Apply abrogation just to understand the Qur'an is senseless.

Quote:
An example that is often used to show the topic of abrogation as relevant and true in the Quran is the topic of wine drinking.
In early Islam, wine drinking and gambling were allowed - Surah 2:219:
2:219They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-
From this ayah it was taught that drinking and gambling could provide a benefit and also have bad effects. To identify that the practice of drinking wine was not uncommon among Muslims, another ayah was revealed that forbade the Muslims to come to prayer drunk, Surah 4:43:

Then the ayah Surah 5:93 was revealed to stop drinking wine since it is an abomination.
5:93 O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (Dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, - of Satan’s handiwork: Eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
If the concept of abrogation is not introduced then it shows there are contradiction and confusions in the Quran.
Therefore 2:106 refers to abrogation of the verses within the Quran rather than the whole scripture.
This is utter ignorance about the verses of the Qur'an. The verse 2:219 clearly tells us that wine and gambling is GREAT SIN. Is there benefit is GREAT SIN? The SIN is greater than the profit made out of selling wine. There is no benefit if the it is GREAT SIN. The word in the Arabic Qur'an is "manafiAAu". It means monetary "profit" rather than health "benefit".

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There are many verses in the Quran that necessitate the applications of abrogation to enable them to make sense otherwise the Quran will look bad, e.g.;
• Surah 9:29 abrogating Surah 2:109
• Surah 2:185 abrogating Surah 2:184
• Surah 9:36 abrogating Surah 2:217 and Surah 45:14
No abrogation of any of them. But of course if you can't understand them, you have no choice but apply whatever you fancy in your ignorance to understand them your way. I have studied them all and none abrogate any other.

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Therefore, since in contexts there are many cases where there are variations and contradictions in the Quran between certain sets of verses, examples given above, verse 2:106 is most effective to be referred to abrogation of verses within the Quran rather than abrogating older scriptures.
You illustrate my point quite clearly that if you can't understand these verses and can't reconcile them, you see variation or contradiction in them. It is this ignorance through lack of understanding of these verses that forces some people to apply abrogation within the Qur'an.

Finally, and this is very important, the prophet never said that any verse of the Qur'an has been abrogated by another verse of the Qur'an. Had it been the case, he would have been the first person to say so. Further, there is no consensus as to how many verses of the Qur'an are abrogated. This is a clear cut indication that different people have just made up the abrogation within the Qur'an. The number varies because various people count the number of verses they can't reconcile and can't understand and regard them abrogated. That's why their number varies. My number is ZERO.
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