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Old 05-23-2016, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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The Validity of Prior Revelations of Islam?

'Islam' is this case is the specific Islam in relation to the Quran recited by Muhammad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Previous revelations are important to us as the Qur'an is not stand-alone revelation from Allah but a continuation of the previous revelations.
This is why we are required to believe in the previous revelations as well as the Qur'an otherwise such believing would be pointless.
The Qur'an is clear that our faith is the tradition of Abraham (2:130, 3:95, 16:123). It is Abraham's religion rather than a religion that began with Muhammad for the first time.

If it is not in the Qur'an but it is in the previous revelations that was a command for future then we must adhere to it as our deen is that of Abraham's tradition.
Yes the Quran mentioned Islam of the Quran is the same deen (& or millat) of Abraham which preceded Muhammad.

Doctrinally a Muslim can only accept whatever is mentioned in the Quran with reference to the previous revelations and acknowledge the historical element that Abraham was the pioneer.

The Quran also mentioned the Torah and Gospels had been corrupted.
Since when it was corrupted was not mentioned.
Therefore a Muslim cannot rely on what is stated in the Torah and Gospels as divine authority for compliance.

You mentioned certain rulings from the Torah, e.g. circumcision is obligatory on the Muslims as a divine ordination.

However on what authority can any decide on any matter that is outside the ambit of the Quran recited by Muhammad in 610-632 AD?

If the Muslims of the present Islam [Muhammad] can accept the ruling of circumcision [& ?] from the supposedly corrupted Torah, then what is there to stop Muslim from accepting the whole Torah as it is?

Picking and choosing one or two elements from the supposedly "corrupted" Torah [as claimed by the Quran] and ignoring the rest do not make sense nor it is logical.
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Old 05-23-2016, 10:06 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If somethng is the previous scripture is in conflit with the Qur'an, the Qur'an takes precedence.
If it is not mentioned in the Qur'an and is not in conflict with anything in the Qur'an it is still applicable.

Jizya for example while not described inthe Qur'an is described in the earlier scriptures. From which come the basis for the rules as to who is subject to paying Jizya and how much.
See this post and thread
If it is not in the Quran how can any one know for sure it is ordained by Allah.
It would be blasphemous to obey something that is not authorized, ordained nor sanctioned by Allah.

Jizya [l-jiz'yata الْجِزْيَةَ ج ز ى ] is mentioned in the Quran in 9:29, albeit not in details.
What is most critical is the principle [policy, rule] and not the amount payable and other details.
It is always the principle that is critical as to include details in every principle and policy would make any holy text too cumbersome.

Common sense from experiences in history will guide any authority to tax others reasonably in amounts otherwise they will kill the golden goose.
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Old 05-23-2016, 10:27 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Validity of Prior Revelations of Islam?

'Islam' is this case is the specific Islam in relation to the Quran recited by Muhammad.

Yes the Quran mentioned Islam of the Quran is the same deen (& or millat) of Abraham which preceded Muhammad.

Doctrinally a Muslim can only accept whatever is mentioned in the Quran with reference to the previous revelations and acknowledge the historical element that Abraham was the pioneer.

The Quran also mentioned the Torah and Gospels had been corrupted.
Since when it was corrupted was not mentioned.
Therefore a Muslim cannot rely on what is stated in the Torah and Gospels as divine authority for compliance.

You mentioned certain rulings from the Torah, e.g. circumcision is obligatory on the Muslims as a divine ordination.

However on what authority can any decide on any matter that is outside the ambit of the Quran recited by Muhammad in 610-632 AD?

If the Muslims of the present Islam [Muhammad] can accept the ruling of circumcision [& ?] from the supposedly corrupted Torah, then what is there to stop Muslim from accepting the whole Torah as it is?

Picking and choosing one or two elements from the supposedly "corrupted" Torah [as claimed by the Quran] and ignoring the rest do not make sense nor it is logical.
Just for starters, Looking only at the Christian Bible Christianity presents the OT as being the "Jewish Bible" without going too far look at the Jewish criticisms of the OT

To Jews, there is no "Old Testament." The books that Christians call the New Testament are not part of Jewish scripture. The so-called Old Testament is known to us as Written Torah or the Tanakh...The text of each book is more or less the same in Jewish translations as what you see in Christian bibles, although there are some occasional, slight differences in the numbering of verses and there are some significant differences in the translations."

Source: Judaism 101: Torah

Though the content is the same, notice how the Tanakh is ordered differently from what is found in a Christian bible. The Tanakh is ordered by types of writing. The Torah (the Law), followed by the Prophets (starting with Joshua), and The Writings. Leave it to the Greeks to Categorize stuff in different groups and order from longer writings to shorter . You can clearly see this in the way the New Testament is organized. The Pauline Epistles start with the longest one - Romans and finish with Philemon. What about Hebrews? Pauline authorship was questioned hence why it's shoved at the end of the group.

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-d...-Old-Testament

The fundamental difference between the Torah and the Bible is both simple and profound.

The five books of Torah are written in Hebrew and teach readers and hearers to worship YHWH, and no other power. The Hebrew Scriptures which include the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings, refer directly to YHWH by Name nearly 7000 times.

The Bible, in whatever language it is read other than Hebrew, teaches its followers to worship the Lord God from beginning to end.

The Torah teaches in Hebrew that the Name of the Creator and Redeemer of the world is YHWH and that this Name is His “shem zakar”, meaning His Name of Remembrance for all time. Commandment number three of the “Ten Commandments” in Hebrew specifically speaks of the Name “YHWH” and warns that THIS Name must never be disregarded or diminished in any way. The clearest translation of third commandment is simply this: “You shall not disregard/diminish the Name YHWH your Elohim!”

The word “God” (spelled gimel dalet in Hebrew) does appear in the Hebrew Scriptures. But in Hebrew “God” is associated with “Baal” and never YHWH. It is a name referring to one who distributes fortune. It is the proper name of Baal as in “Baal-God.” Baal means husband or master or lord, so a possible translation of “Baal-God” in Hebrew is “Lord God”--the master who brings good fortune, or perhaps, answers prayers.

Translators have substituted “God” for the Hebrew word “elohim”, but the simple fact that “God” is associated with “Baal” in Hebrew precludes translator’s insistence that “God” is an accurate translation of the Hebrew word “Elohim.” “God” is an elohim other than YHWH. In the Hebrew Torah, YHWH forbids His People to have any relationship with God, the distributor or good fortune, or any other elohim.
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-d...-Old-Testament

The point being you will find differences between theTanakh and the OT. Most Jews will agree that the OT is a corrupted form of the Tanakh, restructered to support the NT

But overall Christianity does contain truths that are still applicable. While it is not necessary for a Muslims to read the past scripture, historically it is of some interest to know that muslims are still bound by the truth of the past.
"
Now going back to the Question "However on what authority can any decide on any matter that is outside the ambit of the Quran recited by Muhammad in 610-632 AD?"

to understand one must understand that the Qur'an is nothing new. It does contain corrections to past errors made by people. If something in the past scriptures is not mentioned in the Quran it is either of no importance or true. However, there is no need for a Muslims to study the past scriptures as all the essentials are addressed in the Quran.
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Old 05-23-2016, 10:50 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If it is not in the Quran how can any one know for sure it is ordained by Allah.
It would be blasphemous to obey something that is not authorized, ordained nor sanctioned by Allah.

Jizya [l-jiz'yata الْجِزْيَةَ ج ز ى ] is mentioned in the Quran in 9:29, albeit not in details.
What is most critical is the principle [policy, rule] and not the amount payable and other details.
It is always the principle that is critical as to include details in every principle and policy would make any holy text too cumbersome.

Common sense from experiences in history will guide any authority to tax others reasonably in amounts otherwise they will kill the golden goose.
If something is mentioned i past scripture and not contradictory to the Qur'an then by default it is ordained by Allaah(swt) We do believe people in the past were given true scriptures and that all past prophets(PBUT) spoke what was ordained by Allaah(swt)Many things were not addressed in the Qur'an because they are general truths that are essentially common Knowledge. Some important matters were reiterated to verify they were not applicable only to the Christians or Jews. Such as

"For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if be had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty) , but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth. - 5:32 (Picktall)"

Is not for Jews only, although it was first revealed to the Jews.


for all practical purposes there is no reason for a Muslim to study past scriptures. However, for those of us that had a stroung background as Christians or Jews it is quite helpful to understand that the basic message has always been the same.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 05-23-2016 at 11:07 PM..
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Old 05-23-2016, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Just for starters, Looking only at the Christian Bible Christianity presents the OT as being the "Jewish Bible" without going too far look at the Jewish criticisms of the OT

To Jews, there is no "Old Testament." The books that Christians call the New Testament are not part of Jewish scripture. The so-called Old Testament is known to us as Written Torah or the Tanakh...The text of each book is more or less the same in Jewish translations as what you see in Christian bibles, although there are some occasional, slight differences in the numbering of verses and there are some significant differences in the translations."

Source: Judaism 101: Torah

Though the content is the same, notice how the Tanakh is ordered differently from what is found in a Christian bible. The Tanakh is ordered by types of writing. The Torah (the Law), followed by the Prophets (starting with Joshua), and The Writings. Leave it to the Greeks to Categorize stuff in different groups and order from longer writings to shorter . You can clearly see this in the way the New Testament is organized. The Pauline Epistles start with the longest one - Romans and finish with Philemon. What about Hebrews? Pauline authorship was questioned hence why it's shoved at the end of the group.

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-d...-Old-Testament

The fundamental difference between the Torah and the Bible is both simple and profound.

The five books of Torah are written in Hebrew and teach readers and hearers to worship YHWH, and no other power. The Hebrew Scriptures which include the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings, refer directly to YHWH by Name nearly 7000 times.

The Bible, in whatever language it is read other than Hebrew, teaches its followers to worship the Lord God from beginning to end.

The Torah teaches in Hebrew that the Name of the Creator and Redeemer of the world is YHWH and that this Name is His “shem zakar”, meaning His Name of Remembrance for all time. Commandment number three of the “Ten Commandments” in Hebrew specifically speaks of the Name “YHWH” and warns that THIS Name must never be disregarded or diminished in any way. The clearest translation of third commandment is simply this: “You shall not disregard/diminish the Name YHWH your Elohim!”

The word “God” (spelled gimel dalet in Hebrew) does appear in the Hebrew Scriptures. But in Hebrew “God” is associated with “Baal” and never YHWH. It is a name referring to one who distributes fortune. It is the proper name of Baal as in “Baal-God.” Baal means husband or master or lord, so a possible translation of “Baal-God” in Hebrew is “Lord God”--the master who brings good fortune, or perhaps, answers prayers.

Translators have substituted “God” for the Hebrew word “elohim”, but the simple fact that “God” is associated with “Baal” in Hebrew precludes translator’s insistence that “God” is an accurate translation of the Hebrew word “Elohim.” “God” is an elohim other than YHWH. In the Hebrew Torah, YHWH forbids His People to have any relationship with God, the distributor or good fortune, or any other elohim.
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-d...-Old-Testament

The point being you will find differences between theTanakh and the OT. Most Jews will agree that the OT is a corrupted form of the Tanakh, restructered to support the NT

But overall Christianity does contain truths that are still applicable. While it is not necessary for a Muslims to read the past scripture, historically it is of some interest to know that muslims are still bound by the truth of the past.
"
Now going back to the Question "However on what authority can any decide on any matter that is outside the ambit of the Quran recited by Muhammad in 610-632 AD?"

to understand one must understand that the Qur'an is nothing new. It does contain corrections to past errors made by people. If something in the past scriptures is not mentioned in the Quran it is either of no importance or true. However, there is no need for a Muslims to study the past scriptures as all the essentials are addressed in the Quran.
The Quran itself claim it is nothing new.
There were many previous Qurans [thousands in respect of the thousands [?] of past prophets before Muhammad.

Since the Quran itself condemned whatever is old [Torah, Gospels, whatever] as corrupted there is no way to confirm the old scriptures are the originals delivered by God.
Some verses in the old texts may be 'original' but because they are mixed with the corrupted verses, there is no way one can differentiate which is original and which is corrupted until God says so.

So the only certain scripture in accordance to Islam [re Muhammad] is the present Quran delivered to Muhammad.

Quote:
If something in the past scriptures is not mentioned in the Quran it is either of no importance or true.
How do you decide 'which something' of past scriptures not in the Quran [re Muhammad] is valid and original? Who is to decide on Allah's behalf on this matter?

Quote:
However, there is no need for a Muslims to study the past scriptures as all the essentials are addressed in the Quran.
If it is not a contentious issue then there is no problem and can be ignored.

However Khalif [ignoring Ahadith] did bring up the contentious issue that circumcision [and another ?] whilst not mentioned in the Quran [Muhammad] is enforceable as an Islamic Law or ruling for Muslims.


If Muslims can accept something of the past scriptures, then they should accept the following from the NT, i.e.

1. Thou Shall not Kill [no ifs and no buts].
2. Love thy enemies [no ifs and no buts].

Then make the above two moral maxims as overriding and abrogating all other similar verses, then there will be no more Islamic-inspired-Evils and Violence.
Unfortunately the Quran is perfect, immutable and eternal so there is no hope for abrogation, changes, editing or deletion.
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Old 05-23-2016, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Quran itself claim it is nothing new.
There were many previous Qurans [thousands in respect of the thousands [?] of past prophets before Muhammad.

Since the Quran itself condemned whatever is old [Torah, Gospels, whatever] as corrupted there is no way to confirm the old scriptures are the originals delivered by God.
Some verses in the old texts may be 'original' but because they are mixed with the corrupted verses, there is no way one can differentiate which is original and which is corrupted until God says so.

So the only certain scripture in accordance to Islam [re Muhammad] is the present Quran delivered to Muhammad.

How do you decide 'which something' of past scriptures not in the Quran [re Muhammad] is valid and original? Who is to decide on Allah's behalf on this matter?

If it is not a contentious issue then there is no problem and can be ignored.

However Khalif [ignoring Ahadith] did bring up the contentious issue that circumcision [and another ?] whilst not mentioned in the Quran [Muhammad] is enforceable as an Islamic Law or ruling for Muslims.


If Muslims can accept something of the past scriptures, then they should accept the following from the NT, i.e.

1. Thou Shall not Kill [no ifs and no buts].
2. Love thy enemies [no ifs and no buts].

Then make the above two moral maxims as overriding and abrogating all other similar verses, then there will be no more Islamic-inspired-Evils and Violence.
Unfortunately the Quran is perfect, immutable and eternal so there is no hope for abrogation, changes, editing or deletion.

You will find that Many probably most Muslims agree 2 and 2 are in accordance with islam. these are borne out in suratthat insist upon fair treatment of all people and that was Muslims we are not to be aggressors and respect all people.


“And good and evil deeds are not alike. Repel evil with good. And he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend.” (41:33-34)

Quran 4:94: . . . Do not say to one who offers you peace, “You are not a believer,” seeking the spoils of this life. For God has abundant treasure. You used to be like them, after all, and then God blessed you.

28:55, And when they hear vain talk, they turn away from it and say: “To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we do not seek out the ignorant.”

4:90] Exempt those who join a people with whom you have concluded a peace treaty, and those who come to you with hearts unwilling to fight you, nor to fight their relatives. Had God willed, he could have placed them in power over you and they would have made war on you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no way to go against them.

While Islam is more realistic in regards to not allowing our selves to be passive victems we are alson warned not to be oppressors and to always be ready to accept and forgive previous enemies

Aggression is Forbidden. Fighting is permitted only in self-defence.

The Quranic verses on this are very clear. God repeats, "do not aggress", multiple times. Only if attacked, is one permitted to fight back. If the other party refrains from aggression and offers one peace, we are told to stop fighting.

Rules of War*

[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.
[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.
[2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

*2:190 All fighting is regulated by the basic rule in 60:8-9. Fighting is allowed strictly in self-defense, while aggression and oppression are strongly condemned throughout the Quran.

[5:87] O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by GOD, and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[4:90] ... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

The Quran also reminds the submitters (muslims in Arabic) that they should not be provoked by past animosity into committing acts of aggression (5:2). Additionally, God insists that submitters (muslims) must be absolutely sure before striking in the cause of God (4:94). Anyone who offers one peace, cannot be attacked.

[4:94] O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of GOD, you shall be absolutely sure. Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this world. For GOD possesses infinite spoils. Remember that you used to be like them, and GOD blessed you. Therefore, you shall be absolutely sure (before you strike). GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
Life is Sacred

The killing of innocent civilians by suicide bombers and terrorists is strongly condemned in the Quran. Taking any life—except in the course of justice, is forbidden. Even so, capital punishment is discouraged. Thus, those who commit these horrible acts are clearly not muslims, rather very evil people who try to justify their hatred and actions using God's name (7:28).

The Major Commandments

[6:151] Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you: You shall not set up idols besides Him. You shall honor your parents. You shall not kill your children from fear of poverty - we provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins, obvious or hidden. You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."

[17:33] You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder; he will be helped.

[25:68] They never implore beside GOD any other god, nor do they kill anyone - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. Nor do they commit adultery. Those who commit these offenses will have to pay.

[7:28] They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"

Absolute Freedom to Believe / No compulsion in religion

Does Islam recommend or justify killing of disbelievers or those who decide to leave the religion? The answer is an emphatic "No". God makes it very clear in the Quran, that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). Free will is one of God's precious gifts to humanity, and human beings cannot take away what God gave man. If someone does not wish to believe, they are to be left alone and not forced in any manner. A submitter's (muslim) job is simply to invite people to God's religion with kind enlightenment (16:125).

The Quran on Wars And Aggression; Submission (Islam)
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Old 05-23-2016, 11:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You will find that Many probably most Muslims agree 2 and 2 are in accordance with islam. these are borne out in suratthat insist upon fair treatment of all people and that was Muslims we are not to be aggressors and respect all people.


“And good and evil deeds are not alike. Repel evil with good. And he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend.” (41:33-34)

Quran 4:94: . . . Do not say to one who offers you peace, “You are not a believer,” seeking the spoils of this life. For God has abundant treasure. You used to be like them, after all, and then God blessed you.

28:55, And when they hear vain talk, they turn away from it and say: “To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we do not seek out the ignorant.”

4:90] Exempt those who join a people with whom you have concluded a peace treaty, and those who come to you with hearts unwilling to fight you, nor to fight their relatives. Had God willed, he could have placed them in power over you and they would have made war on you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no way to go against them.

While Islam is more realistic in regards to not allowing our selves to be passive victems we are alson warned not to be oppressors and to always be ready to accept and forgive previous enemies

Aggression is Forbidden. Fighting is permitted only in self-defence.

The Quranic verses on this are very clear. God repeats, "do not aggress", multiple times. Only if attacked, is one permitted to fight back. If the other party refrains from aggression and offers one peace, we are told to stop fighting.

Rules of War*

[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.
[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.
[2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

*2:190 All fighting is regulated by the basic rule in 60:8-9. Fighting is allowed strictly in self-defense, while aggression and oppression are strongly condemned throughout the Quran.

[5:87] O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by GOD, and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[4:90] ... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

The Quran also reminds the submitters (muslims in Arabic) that they should not be provoked by past animosity into committing acts of aggression (5:2). Additionally, God insists that submitters (muslims) must be absolutely sure before striking in the cause of God (4:94). Anyone who offers one peace, cannot be attacked.

[4:94] O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of GOD, you shall be absolutely sure. Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this world. For GOD possesses infinite spoils. Remember that you used to be like them, and GOD blessed you. Therefore, you shall be absolutely sure (before you strike). GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
Life is Sacred

The killing of innocent civilians by suicide bombers and terrorists is strongly condemned in the Quran. Taking any life—except in the course of justice, is forbidden. Even so, capital punishment is discouraged. Thus, those who commit these horrible acts are clearly not muslims, rather very evil people who try to justify their hatred and actions using God's name (7:28).

The Major Commandments

[6:151] Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you: You shall not set up idols besides Him. You shall honor your parents. You shall not kill your children from fear of poverty - we provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins, obvious or hidden. You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."

[17:33] You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder; he will be helped.

[25:68] They never implore beside GOD any other god, nor do they kill anyone - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. Nor do they commit adultery. Those who commit these offenses will have to pay.

[7:28] They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"

Absolute Freedom to Believe / No compulsion in religion

Does Islam recommend or justify killing of disbelievers or those who decide to leave the religion? The answer is an emphatic "No". God makes it very clear in the Quran, that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). Free will is one of God's precious gifts to humanity, and human beings cannot take away what God gave man. If someone does not wish to believe, they are to be left alone and not forced in any manner. A submitter's (muslim) job is simply to invite people to God's religion with kind enlightenment (16:125).

The Quran on Wars And Aggression; Submission (Islam)
1. Thou Shall not Kill [no ifs and no buts].
2. Love thy enemies [no ifs and no buts].
Note I specifically mentioned for 1 or 2 there should be no "ifs" nor "buts" and they should be overriding maxims in an overall context.

In the case of the Quran they are always accompanied with "ifs" or "buts", e.g.
[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.
[2:191] You may kill those [if they] who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.
[2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.
Note the voluminous "ifs" and "buts" in the above example and elsewhere that leave a lot of room for the evil prone Muslims to do their bidding to expedite their passage to Paradise and avoid hell.
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Old 05-24-2016, 01:19 AM
 
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All the mandates of peace in the Holy obsolete---And offer you some--The word ناسخ means Cancel--
Which it is supported by the following verse--What verse or canceled of Nnasseha distanced fine them or similar. Did you know that God over all things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You will find that Many probably most Muslims agree 2 and 2 are in accordance with islam. these are borne out in suratthat insist upon fair treatment of all people and that was Muslims we are not to be aggressors and respect all people.


“And good and evil deeds are not alike. Repel evil with good. And he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend.” (41:33-34)

Quran 4:94: . . . Do not say to one who offers you peace, “You are not a believer,” seeking the spoils of this life. For God has abundant treasure. You used to be like them, after all, and then God blessed you.

28:55, And when they hear vain talk, they turn away from it and say: “To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we do not seek out the ignorant.”

4:90] Exempt those who join a people with whom you have concluded a peace treaty, and those who come to you with hearts unwilling to fight you, nor to fight their relatives. Had God willed, he could have placed them in power over you and they would have made war on you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no way to go against them.

While Islam is more realistic in regards to not allowing our selves to be passive victems we are alson warned not to be oppressors and to always be ready to accept and forgive previous enemies

Aggression is Forbidden. Fighting is permitted only in self-defence.

The Quranic verses on this are very clear. God repeats, "do not aggress", multiple times. Only if attacked, is one permitted to fight back. If the other party refrains from aggression and offers one peace, we are told to stop fighting.

Rules of War*

[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.
[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.
[2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

*2:190 All fighting is regulated by the basic rule in 60:8-9. Fighting is allowed strictly in self-defense, while aggression and oppression are strongly condemned throughout the Quran.

[5:87] O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by GOD, and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[4:90] ... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

The Quran also reminds the submitters (muslims in Arabic) that they should not be provoked by past animosity into committing acts of aggression (5:2). Additionally, God insists that submitters (muslims) must be absolutely sure before striking in the cause of God (4:94). Anyone who offers one peace, cannot be attacked.

[4:94] O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of GOD, you shall be absolutely sure. Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this world. For GOD possesses infinite spoils. Remember that you used to be like them, and GOD blessed you. Therefore, you shall be absolutely sure (before you strike). GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
Life is Sacred

The killing of innocent civilians by suicide bombers and terrorists is strongly condemned in the Quran. Taking any life—except in the course of justice, is forbidden. Even so, capital punishment is discouraged. Thus, those who commit these horrible acts are clearly not muslims, rather very evil people who try to justify their hatred and actions using God's name (7:28).

The Major Commandments

[6:151] Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you: You shall not set up idols besides Him. You shall honor your parents. You shall not kill your children from fear of poverty - we provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins, obvious or hidden. You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."

[17:33] You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder; he will be helped.

[25:68] They never implore beside GOD any other god, nor do they kill anyone - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. Nor do they commit adultery. Those who commit these offenses will have to pay.

[7:28] They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"

Absolute Freedom to Believe / No compulsion in religion

Does Islam recommend or justify killing of disbelievers or those who decide to leave the religion? The answer is an emphatic "No". God makes it very clear in the Quran, that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). Free will is one of God's precious gifts to humanity, and human beings cannot take away what God gave man. If someone does not wish to believe, they are to be left alone and not forced in any manner. A submitter's (muslim) job is simply to invite people to God's religion with kind enlightenment (16:125).

The Quran on Wars And Aggression; Submission (Islam)
All the verse of peace in the quran Cancelled
To verse 62 {Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians and Alsabian and believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous deeds, they have their reward with their Lord, and no fear nor shall they grieve}.

This is the second verse of the verses thirty Cancelled

Copied any language verse Surah Al-Imran 84 {It seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him in the Hereafter} Urbanism 84. See duplicator and copied to Nasaboura p. 35.

This is what the whole of Muslim Scholars, because God will not accept a substitute for Islam (the religion with Allah is Islam)
The second verse: Cow 109.

(D many of the People of the Book if Ardonkm of faith after the envy of the infidels at themselves after they found them right But forgive and overlook, till Allah brings His command) Cow 109.

This is the fourth verse, according in Cancelled Sura sequence.

Abrogated by the verse 29. Repentance Alnisabure said, "What the copies of the amnesty and laminate saying (and Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor forbid what Allah and His Messenger to say until they pay tribute. See duplicator and copied to Nasaboura pp 37-42.
The third verse of cow 139:

(Us and our business and to you your deeds) 139 cows.

This is the sixth verse of the thirtieth verses in Cancelled Sura

Cancelled any language verse Repentance five known verse of the sword (When the sacred months Sacred Kill the idolaters wherever ye find, to the last verse. See duplicator and copied to Nasaboura S44-45.
Cow fourth verse 190:

(Fight in the cause of God those who fight you not usurp that God does not love aggressors) 190 cows.

This is the fourth verse of the total ten verses of Sura cancled

Abrogated by the verse Repentance 36 (and fight the polytheists all as fight against you all) and he said (Kill the idolaters wherever ye find.

Alnisabure says in saying this was not transgress in the Getting Started _ when Islam was weak _raja duplicator and cancled to Nasaboura pp 65-66.
Cow fifth verse 256:

(there is no compulsion in religion ).

It is the twenty-seventh verse, according to the canceled verses in Sura sequences, amounting to thirty verses.

All arbitrator is the first of God copied verse of the sword. See duplicator and copied to Nasaboura pp 96-97

Sura 20.

Civil containing the copied on ten verses concern us, including the first verse saying: 20 {Van Hajok tell converted to Islam and my face to Allah and student make and say to those who were given the Book and the illiterate Aaslemtem van converted to Islam has guided - here this verse Court - and copied them saying that they turn away for he you author and God Seer of His slaves}.

Abrogated by the verse sword repentance 5. See duplicator and canceled to Nasaboura pp 102-103.
Nisa 62.

Civil containing copied from the twenty-four of which concerns us a verse verse fourteen: 62 {those who Allah knows what is in their hearts, offer their preaching}.

Alnisabure says in the duplicator and copied this was the start of Islam, then preaching and symptoms became abrogated verse of the sword repentance 5. See duplicator and canceled to Nasaboura p. 135.
Surah 13.

Civilian but the sign of which was revealed in Mecca, containing canceled from the nine signs of which concerns us the second verse 13 {forgive, forgive them and that God loves the doers of good}.

Alnisabure said, "I got the Jews then copy the pardon, saying: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor forbid what God and His Messenger, nor condemn the religion of truth from those who were given the book until they pay tribute out of hand and they are submissive.

See duplicator and canceled to Nasaboura p 1
Verse fifth table 99.

What the apostle, but the communication in anycanceled that sword repentance 5.

See duplicator and canceled to Nasaboura p. 152.
Al cattle 107.

Sura Makiya is only nine verses of which landed in the city.

Containing the canceled five verse ten of which concerns us eighth verse: {and} We put thee them Hviza 107 cattle.

canceled the verse of the sword. See ibid., P 165.
Al-Anfal 61.

But civil verses Nzlta in Mecca.

Where six of the canceled verses interested them the third verse

{If they incline to peace, incline, Anfal 61}.

Repentance abrogated by the verse 29: The Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor forbid what God and His Messenger, nor condemn the religion of truth from those who were given the book until they pay tribute out of hand and they are submissive. See ibid. P. 176-177.
Repentance 5

Civilian, another what was revealed from the Koran.

Containing eleven verses abrogated concerns us, including: the third and the famous verse of the sword {When the sacred months then kill the idolaters wherever ye find and take them and count them and sit you for them all repent, and establish regular prayers and regular charity, then leave their way, God is Forgiving, Merciful} repentance 5.

Alnisabure said, it is the verse canceled from the Koran verse one hundred and twenty-four verses. See ibid. 284.Yunus 109

Makiya, but two or three, containing the copied from the eight verses of which concerns us eighth verse {and be patient until God governs us Younis 109}.

Abrogated by the verse of the sword. See ibid., P 193.Verse fourth bees 125

{Invite to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching and argue with them is the best} bees 125. canceled

Abrogated by the verse of the sword. See ibid., P 210.
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Old 05-24-2016, 01:21 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
1. Thou Shall not Kill [no ifs and no buts].
2. Love thy enemies [no ifs and no buts].
Immediately after this commandment was given to the Jews (Israelites), they had killed 3000 of their own people in one day, and then carried on the killing spree for many years on their way to Jerusalem. Therefore, you are wrong in adding [no ifs and no buts]. Your addition is not part of the Commandment but from Continuum only.

Quote:
Note I specifically mentioned for 1 or 2 there should be no "ifs" nor "buts" and they should be overriding maxims in an overall context.
Overriding maxim is general principle rather than a rule with no ifs and buts. There is no rigid rule in the Bible, thou shall not kill under any circumstance.

Quote:
In the case of the Quran they are always accompanied with "ifs" or "buts", e.g.
Quite rightly so. In case of the Qur'an, Muslim is never to be the initial aggressor, and even if subjected to aggression, never to go beyond the limit. If the aggressor resorts to peace then a Muslim too must resort to peace. This is much clearer than brandishing the Commandment, "I shall not kill" in one hand and holding the sword in the other hand ready to kill.

Quote:
[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.
[2:191] You may kill those [if they] who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.
[2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.
Note the voluminous "ifs" and "buts" in the above example and elsewhere that leave a lot of room for the evil prone Muslims to do their bidding to expedite their passage to Paradise and avoid hell.
Do you want Muslims to do nothing, and get killed, even if the aggressor is not supposed to kill but does kill?
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Old 05-24-2016, 01:25 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
All the mandates of peace in the Holy obsolete---And offer you some--The word ناسخ means Cancel--
Which it is supported by the following verse--What verse or canceled of Nnasseha distanced fine them or similar. Did you know that God over all things.

All the verse of peace in the quran Cancelled
To verse 62 {Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians and Alsabian and believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous deeds, they have their reward with their Lord, and no fear nor shall they grieve}.

This is the second verse of the verses thirty Cancelled

Copied any language verse Surah Al-Imran 84 {It seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him in the Hereafter} Urbanism 84. See duplicator and copied to Nasaboura p. 35.

This is what the whole of Muslim Scholars, because God will not accept a substitute for Islam (the religion with Allah is Islam)
The second verse: Cow 109.

(D many of the People of the Book if Ardonkm of faith after the envy of the infidels at themselves after they found them right But forgive and overlook, till Allah brings His command) Cow 109.

This is the fourth verse, according in Cancelled Sura sequence.

Abrogated by the verse 29. Repentance Alnisabure said, "What the copies of the amnesty and laminate saying (and Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor forbid what Allah and His Messenger to say until they pay tribute. See duplicator and copied to Nasaboura pp 37-42.
The third verse of cow 139:

(Us and our business and to you your deeds) 139 cows.

This is the sixth verse of the thirtieth verses in Cancelled Sura

Cancelled any language verse Repentance five known verse of the sword (When the sacred months Sacred Kill the idolaters wherever ye find, to the last verse. See duplicator and copied to Nasaboura S44-45.
Cow fourth verse 190:

(Fight in the cause of God those who fight you not usurp that God does not love aggressors) 190 cows.

This is the fourth verse of the total ten verses of Sura cancled

Abrogated by the verse Repentance 36 (and fight the polytheists all as fight against you all) and he said (Kill the idolaters wherever ye find.

Alnisabure says in saying this was not transgress in the Getting Started _ when Islam was weak _raja duplicator and cancled to Nasaboura pp 65-66.
Cow fifth verse 256:

(there is no compulsion in religion ).

It is the twenty-seventh verse, according to the canceled verses in Sura sequences, amounting to thirty verses.

All arbitrator is the first of God copied verse of the sword. See duplicator and copied to Nasaboura pp 96-97

Sura 20.

Civil containing the copied on ten verses concern us, including the first verse saying: 20 {Van Hajok tell converted to Islam and my face to Allah and student make and say to those who were given the Book and the illiterate Aaslemtem van converted to Islam has guided - here this verse Court - and copied them saying that they turn away for he you author and God Seer of His slaves}.

Abrogated by the verse sword repentance 5. See duplicator and canceled to Nasaboura pp 102-103.
Nisa 62.

Civil containing copied from the twenty-four of which concerns us a verse verse fourteen: 62 {those who Allah knows what is in their hearts, offer their preaching}.

Alnisabure says in the duplicator and copied this was the start of Islam, then preaching and symptoms became abrogated verse of the sword repentance 5. See duplicator and canceled to Nasaboura p. 135.
Surah 13.

Civilian but the sign of which was revealed in Mecca, containing canceled from the nine signs of which concerns us the second verse 13 {forgive, forgive them and that God loves the doers of good}.

Alnisabure said, "I got the Jews then copy the pardon, saying: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor forbid what God and His Messenger, nor condemn the religion of truth from those who were given the book until they pay tribute out of hand and they are submissive.

See duplicator and canceled to Nasaboura p 1
Verse fifth table 99.

What the apostle, but the communication in anycanceled that sword repentance 5.

See duplicator and canceled to Nasaboura p. 152.
Al cattle 107.

Sura Makiya is only nine verses of which landed in the city.

Containing the canceled five verse ten of which concerns us eighth verse: {and} We put thee them Hviza 107 cattle.

canceled the verse of the sword. See ibid., P 165.
Al-Anfal 61.

But civil verses Nzlta in Mecca.

Where six of the canceled verses interested them the third verse

{If they incline to peace, incline, Anfal 61}.

Repentance abrogated by the verse 29: The Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor forbid what God and His Messenger, nor condemn the religion of truth from those who were given the book until they pay tribute out of hand and they are submissive. See ibid. P. 176-177.
Repentance 5

Civilian, another what was revealed from the Koran.

Containing eleven verses abrogated concerns us, including: the third and the famous verse of the sword {When the sacred months then kill the idolaters wherever ye find and take them and count them and sit you for them all repent, and establish regular prayers and regular charity, then leave their way, God is Forgiving, Merciful} repentance 5.

Alnisabure said, it is the verse canceled from the Koran verse one hundred and twenty-four verses. See ibid. 284.Yunus 109

Makiya, but two or three, containing the copied from the eight verses of which concerns us eighth verse {and be patient until God governs us Younis 109}.

Abrogated by the verse of the sword. See ibid., P 193.Verse fourth bees 125

{Invite to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching and argue with them is the best} bees 125. canceled

Abrogated by the verse of the sword. See ibid., P 210.
No verse of the Qur'an has been abrogated. Each verse still applies or else it won't be in the Qur'an today.
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