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Old 06-06-2016, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You would have to first find a copy of the Injil , it is corrupted not because of change, it was corrupted by ommission.

The existing Christian Scriptures are not the injil. they are not even what is mentioned in the Qur'an. the injil (gospel of Jesus) and The Torah are mentioned and it is not being followed as it was not preserved.
You do not trust Allah's own words in the Quran??
Let me repeat them again,

2:59. But those [Jews ] who did wrong changed the Word which had been told them for another saying, and We sent down upon the evil-doers wrath from Heaven for their evil doing. [re mentioned of 'Muhammad' in the Torah, note Songs of Solomon]

2:75. Have ye any hope that they [Jews] will be true to you when a party of them [Jews] used to listen to the Word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it knowingly?

2:211. Ask of the Children of Israel [Jews] how many a clear revelation We gave them! He [the Jew] who altereth [change] the grace of Allah after it hath come unto him [Jew] (for him), lo! Allah is severe in punishment.

3:71. O People of the Scripture! [Jews and Christians] Why confound ye [as infidels] truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the truth? [accused Jews of corruption of the scripture]

4:46. Some [ignorant zealous Jews] of those who are Jews change words from their context and say: "We hear and disobey; hear thou as one who heareth not" and "Listen to us!" [Ra'ina] distorting [twisting] with their tongues and slandering religion [alddeeni]. If they [Jews] had said: "We hear and we obey; hear thou, and look at us" it had been better for them, and more upright. But Allah hath cursed them [Jew infidels] for their disbelief, so they [Jews - infidels] believe not, save a few. [Ra'ina - pejorative]

5:13. And because of their [infidel Jews] breaking their covenant, We have cursed them [infidel Jews] and made hard their hearts. They [infidels] change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished*. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from ALL [Jews] save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly. [* cautioned, reproved, scolded, or reminded?]
The words I bolded. It is Allah who stated the Jews changed the words from the original version from Allah and the Christians and Jews [3:71] hide the words.

Don't you agree with Allah words of the above?
What is your counter to the above?

Even if you don't agree that the Jews and Christians changed the words of Allah [in disagreeing with Allah], your claim of 'omission' is nevertheless corruption.
So you agree [based on Quran] the present Torah and Injil are corrupted.
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Old 06-06-2016, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
None of them say Torah has been corrupted. You have quoted verses irrelevant to your claim of what Allah "claimed".

You are now looking for a straw to hang on to but you will find none. Allah has also said in the Qur'an:

[2:41] And believe in that which I reveal, confirming that which ye possess already, and be not first to disbelieve therein, and part not with My revelations for a trifling price, and keep your duty unto Me.

That's it, on your bike with your false claim about Allah claiming the Torah has been "corrupted"!
What? You expect Allah to spoon feed you with the word "corrupted."
Your understanding of the Quran is very shallow in this case.

Note the verses I repeated in my reply to Woodrow above.
Note the words 'altered' 'change' 'hide' in those verses.
It is obvious these actions result in corruption of the text.

You also want to spoon feed on the meaning of 'corruption.'
Note the meaning of "corruption" here,
Corruption | Definition of Corruption by Merriam-Webster
1: dishonest or illegal behavior especially by powerful people (such as government officials or police officers)

2. : the act of corrupting someone or something

3. : something that has been changed from its original form
Quote:
[2:41] And believe in that which I reveal, confirming that which ye possess already, and be not first to disbelieve therein, and part not with My revelations for a trifling price, and keep your duty unto Me.
Allah stated the recited Quran to Muhammad confirmed what the Jews possessed then, and Allah was referring to the pristine original version and verses they have then. Allah being all-knowing knew that.
But Allah being all knowing also know the Jews and Christians corrupted the Torah and Injil respectively.

Allah did not state in the Quran which verses are corrupted and which verses are still valid.
Note verse 1:7 also support the point the Torah and Injil are corrupted where Allah implied Allah is angry with the Jews who change the Torah and the Christians who were astray by claiming a son for Allah.

That Allah condemned the Christian Scripture in attributing a 'son' to Allah, the concept of "Trinity" and other deviations is obvious that Allah regarded the present injil as corrupted.
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Old 06-08-2016, 04:00 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What? You expect Allah to spoon feed you with the word "corrupted."
Your understanding of the Quran is very shallow in this case.
Your understanding of the Qur'an is very poor. You are also attributing to the Qur'an that isn't even there in the Qur'an. Not only no corruption of the Taurat and Injil is mentioned in the Qur'an but the Qur'an confirmed what was in possession the Jews at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an.

[2:41] And believe in that which I reveal, confirming that which ye possess already, and be not first to disbelieve therein, and part not with My revelations for a trifling price, and keep your duty unto Me.

Quote:
Note the verses I repeated in my reply to Woodrow above.
Note the words 'altered' 'change' 'hide' in those verses.
It is obvious these actions result in corruption of the text.
None of those verses in the Qur'an is reference to the text of the Torah with the Jews and the Injil. You are merely assuming it to be so in ignorance.

Quote:
You also want to spoon feed on the meaning of 'corruption.'
Note the meaning of "corruption" here,
Corruption | Definition of Corruption by Merriam-Webster
1: dishonest or illegal behavior especially by powerful people (such as government officials or police officers)

2. : the act of corrupting someone or something

3. : something that has been changed from its original form
Allah stated the recited Quran to Muhammad confirmed what the Jews possessed then, and Allah was referring to the pristine original version and verses they have then. Allah being all-knowing knew that.
But Allah being all knowing also know the Jews and Christians corrupted the Torah and Injil respectively.

Allah did not state in the Quran which verses are corrupted and which verses are still valid.
But Allah did confirm what was in their possession! That means, not corrupted Torah was in their possession.

Quote:
Note verse 1:7 also support the point the Torah and Injil are corrupted where Allah implied Allah is angry with the Jews who change the Torah and the Christians who were astray by claiming a son for Allah.
1:7 does not support your point. You are only imagining it so. The Torah and the Injil aren't even mentioned in the verse. All verses 1:6-7 are telling you is that some people were subject of Allah's wrath and some left their straight path and went astray. No mention of the Torah, no mention of the Jews, no mention of the Injil and no mention of any Christian. No point in anyone giving their own meanings to these verses!

Quote:
That Allah condemned the Christian Scripture in attributing a 'son' to Allah, the concept of "Trinity" and other deviations is obvious that Allah regarded the present injil as corrupted.
It may be "obvious" to you but certainly not obvious to many others. Attributing of "son" to Allah is not corruption of the text but twisting of the belief. There were many sons of Allah during the older times. Any godly person was thought to be "son of God" during those days. This was similar to regarding mankind as children of God. Adam was son of God. Israel was son of God. What Christians changed was not the text but belief from "son of God" to "begotten Son of God".

[4.171] O followers of the Book! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Mary and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

No mention of the text but warning not to "speak" like that. It is in spoken word rather than such corruption is in the text.
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Old 06-08-2016, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Your understanding of the Qur'an is very poor. You are also attributing to the Qur'an that isn't even there in the Qur'an. Not only no corruption of the Taurat and Injil is mentioned in the Qur'an but the Qur'an confirmed what was in possession the Jews at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an.

[2:41] And believe in that which I reveal, confirming that which ye possess already, and be not first to disbelieve therein, and part not with My revelations for a trifling price, and keep your duty unto Me.
This is the typical arguments Christians, Jews and others used to defend the Torah and Injil was never corrupted. I believe this is not a good argument at all.

As far as the Jews and Christians are concerned they are very confident what they have on hand is NOT corrupted from their point of view. It is only the Quran that wrongly condemned their scriptures are corrupted.

As far as 2:41 is concerned what is confirmed are only the verses and revelations that are in line with what is in the Quran. Surely that do not apply to 'Jesus as a son of God' where the Quran stated Allah do not have any physical [or otherwise] progeny.

9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

10:68 They say: Allah hath taken (unto Him) a son - Glorified be He! He hath no needs! His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. Ye have no warrant for this. Tell ye concerning Allah that which ye know not?

17:111 And say: Praise be to Allah, Who hath not taken unto Himself a son, and Who hath no partner in the Sovereignty, nor hath He any protecting friend through dependence. And magnify Him with all magnificence.

18:4 And to warn those who say: Allah hath chosen a son, ...

19:35 And to warn those who say: Allah hath chosen a son,

19:91 That ye ascribe unto the Beneficent a son..

21:26 And they say: The Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a son. Be He Glorified! Nay, but (those whom they call sons) are honoured slaves; ..

23:91 Allah hath not chosen any son, nor is there any god along with Him; .....

25:2 He unto Whom belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, He hath chosen no son nor hath He any partner in the Sovereignty.
From the above verses and the main doctrine of the Quran it is obvious Allah do not have a son.
But the present Injil claimed Jesus is the son of God.
Therefore 2:41 cannot confirm that Jesus is the BEGOTTEN son of God as in the Injil.

Quote:
None of those verses in the Qur'an is reference to the text of the Torah with the Jews and the Injil. You are merely assuming it to be so in ignorance.
Those verses accused the Jews and Christians of changing and altering the original version from Allah.
The claim that 'Jesus is the Son of God' is obvious a change from the main doctrine of Allah that Allah cannot have a son, as shown in the verses above.


Quote:
But Allah did confirm what was in their possession! That means, not corrupted Torah was in their possession.
Note my explanation above.

Quote:
1:7 does not support your point. You are only imagining it so. The Torah and the Injil aren't even mentioned in the verse. All verses 1:6-7 are telling you is that some people were subject of Allah's wrath and some left their straight path and went astray. No mention of the Torah, no mention of the Jews, no mention of the Injil and no mention of any Christian. No point in anyone giving their own meanings to these verses!
That is your problem with reading the whole Quran 6-7 times ONLY which do not enable you to understand the nuances within the Quran and Islam.
If you read the whole of the Quran thoroughly you will understand the reference within 1:7 is obviously referring to the Jews and Christians.

Quote:
It may be "obvious" to you but certainly not obvious to many others. Attributing of "son" to Allah is not corruption of the text but twisting of the belief. There were many sons of Allah during the older times. Any godly person was thought to be "son of God" during those days. This was similar to regarding mankind as children of God. Adam was son of God. Israel was son of God. What Christians changed was not the text but belief from "son of God" to "begotten Son of God".
Your comprehension here is very bad.
Twisting of belief from the texts is obviously corruption.
It is confirmed in the present Gospels that Jesus is the begotten son of Allah which cannot be as far as the Quran is concerned. Note the verses I listed above where Allah condemned as an unpardonable sin those who assigned a son to Allah.

Quote:
[4.171] O followers of the Book! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Mary and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

No mention of the text but warning not to "speak" like that. It is in spoken word rather than such corruption is in the text.
In this context, "speak" is definitely speaking from the holy text.
Which believer would dare to speak from their own mind on behalf of their religion.
The confirmation of this "speaking" is in the present Gospel where Jesus proclaimed himself to be the begotten son of Allah.

I can sense your desperations and that is why you are twisting in every possible angle.

It is so obvious in the Quran, Allah condemned the Jews and Christians as corrupting the Torah and Injil.

Truly:
The more exact reality in history is Muhammad [where he authored the Quran] was the one who accused the Jews and Quran as corrupting the Torah and Injil because he 'imagined' they excluded the verses that could make it easier to substantiate Muhammad as the prophesized messenger.
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Old 06-09-2016, 02:12 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Another verse that indicate Torah was corrupted.
2:79. Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands [not divine from God] and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain [in contrast to gain in paradise] therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.
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Old 06-09-2016, 02:14 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Re one big issue related to corruption of the Torah and Gospels;
Is the Quran Preserved?

The Main Problem

Since Allah allowed his previous Revelations to be corrupted by weak human people, this leads to one of the following assumptions about Allah:
1.Allah is a weak god; he could not protect his previous Revelations. He also gains more power and might throughout time, because he supposedly is now able to protect his last revelation, the Quran.
2.Allah does not care about people being misled by counterfeit revelations. And yet he will still punish individuals with hell fire because they follow a corrupted Message even though they may have not come to the realization that Allah had allowed it to be corrupted. That means Allah is unjust.
In light of the above, how can we trust that the Quran is preserved if these three Revelations are corrupted? How can a person trust that Allah did not fail to protect his so-called final revelation, the Quran, when he was too weak to prevent people from tampering with his previous Messages?

Maybe Allah needs to a send a fifth revelation? Perhaps he has already sent down this fifth book, and that is actually the revelation given to Baha’ullah the founder of the Baha’i faith?

More importantly, how do Muslims reconcile their position with Allah’s claim in the Quran that “there is no changing the words of God”?

Muslims, you have to make a decision and choose one of these alternatives:
1.The Quran is preserved and the earlier Revelations are corrupted. In that case, Allah is either weak or he is unjust. That is the only explanation for his preservation of the Quran and letting people corrupt his previous Revelations.
2.The Quran is corrupted like the other Revelations. Then you should either not read it since you do not read other corrupted Revelations, or maybe you should read these other corrupted Revelations just as you insist on reading the corrupted Quran.
3.The Quran is preserved, and the previous Revelations have also been preserved. That means then you should read these authentic Revelations (the Bible) for yourself.
4.The Quran is corrupted but the earlier Revelations are preserved. Obviously, you should then abandon the Quran and read the Bible.
Just a second, I’m not finished yet.

If you picked option number three, then you will be faced with another problem. The Quran contradicts these previous Revelations in many essential points. That means that the Quran is a false message which cannot be from God since God is not the author of confusion. He could not reveal a message that contradicts his previous Messages.

If you do not like these alternatives, then tell me:

What exactly do you think is wrong with my above observations and conclusions?

If you do not accept my premises and therefore reject my conclusions, then:

PROVE TO ME THAT THE QURAN IS PRESERVED.

You have to do that in a rational way without quoting the Quran since that would only be a repetition of the claim, not a proof, or trying to prove that the previous Revelations are corrupted which in no way proves the Quran not to be corrupted, or providing me with (what I consider fake) scientific miracles in the Quran. I want you to resolve the philosophical problem outlined above.

Show me logically and rationally how the Muslim assertion of a perfectly preserved Quran together with an alleged corruption of God’s earlier Revelations is not an insult to God’s perfect justice and great power.
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Old 06-09-2016, 05:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is the typical arguments Christians, Jews and others used to defend the Torah and Injil was never corrupted. I believe this is not a good argument at all.

As far as the Jews and Christians are concerned they are very confident what they have on hand is NOT corrupted from their point of view. It is only the Quran that wrongly condemned their scriptures are corrupted.
You have not demonstrated that the Qur'an condemned their scriptures are corrupted. Nowhere in the Qur'an their scriptures are condemned as corrupted.

Quote:
As far as 2:41 is concerned what is confirmed are only the verses and revelations that are in line with what is in the Quran.
The Qur'an does not say so. It confirms, "which you possess already".

Quote:
Surely that do not apply to 'Jesus as a son of God' where the Quran stated Allah do not have any physical [or otherwise] progeny.

9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

10:68 They say: Allah hath taken (unto Him) a son - Glorified be He! He hath no needs! His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. Ye have no warrant for this. Tell ye concerning Allah that which ye know not?

17:111 And say: Praise be to Allah, Who hath not taken unto Himself a son, and Who hath no partner in the Sovereignty, nor hath He any protecting friend through dependence. And magnify Him with all magnificence.

18:4 And to warn those who say: Allah hath chosen a son, ...

19:35 And to warn those who say: Allah hath chosen a son,

19:91 That ye ascribe unto the Beneficent a son..

21:26 And they say: The Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a son. Be He Glorified! Nay, but (those whom they call sons) are honoured slaves; ..

23:91 Allah hath not chosen any son, nor is there any god along with Him; .....

25:2 He unto Whom belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, He hath chosen no son nor hath He any partner in the Sovereignty.
From the above verses and the main doctrine of the Quran it is obvious Allah do not have a son.
But the present Injil claimed Jesus is the son of God.
Therefore 2:41 cannot confirm that Jesus is the BEGOTTEN son of God as in the Injil.
Injil is what was preached by Jesus. Jesus never preached that he is begotten son of God. The Qur'an confirms this, and Jesus will deny on the day of judgment that he had preached that he is begotten son of God or even God and preached that the Christians should worship him.

Quote:
Those verses accused the Jews and Christians of changing and altering the original version from Allah.
Is this in reference to their scriptures or to the revelation of the Qur'an?

Quote:
The claim that 'Jesus is the Son of God' is obvious a change from the main doctrine of Allah that Allah cannot have a son, as shown in the verses above.
It is not what was in the Injil but what has been made of the Injil in terms of doctrine and interpretation. No quote of Jesus (Injil) is rejected in the Qur'an. It is what is made of his quotes that is rejected in the Qur'an. The Qur'an also reconfirms what has been "forgotten" of the Injil (2:106). Nothing has been forgotten of the Qur'an.


Quote:
That is your problem with reading the whole Quran 6-7 times ONLY which do not enable you to understand the nuances within the Quran and Islam.
An unbeliever telling a believer that he does not understand the Qur'an, is really stupid. If I learn the Qur'an from an unbeliever, I am certain to end up in hell fire with such an unbeliever.

Quote:
If you read the whole of the Quran thoroughly you will understand the reference within 1:7 is obviously referring to the Jews and Christians.
How can you say "obviously" when neither the Jews nor the Christians are mentioned in the verse? Why not people of Lot and apostates?

Quote:
Your comprehension here is very bad.
Twisting of belief from the texts is obviously corruption.
It is not corruption of the text but of their original belief. Their original belief was "One God" and the only God to be worshiped.

Quote:
It is confirmed in the present Gospels that Jesus is the begotten son of Allah which cannot be as far as the Quran is concerned.
Revealed Injil is what was preached by Jesus. Jesus never claimed or preached that he is begotten son of God. Words of other people cannot be assumed as teachings of Jesus. The same is the case with the revelation to Muhammad. It is only the Qur'an that is from Allah and not the hadith books. Muhammad wasn't preaching hadith books but the Qur'an. The only scriptures for Muslims are the verses of the Qur'an. The Qur'an is not corrupted just because there are some hadith books.

Quote:
Note the verses I listed above where Allah condemned as an unpardonable sin those who assigned a son to Allah.
Allah does not condemn Injil but those who assign a son to Allah.

Quote:
In this context, "speak" is definitely speaking from the holy text.
No. Speak is words of their mouth only and Injil is in text attributed to what Jesus had actually spoken.

Quote:
Which believer would dare to speak from their own mind on behalf of their religion.
The confirmation of this "speaking" is in the present Gospel where Jesus proclaimed himself to be the begotten son of Allah.
Nowhere even in the Gospels Jesus had claimed to be the begotten son of God. It is made up by other people long after Jesus. Jesus himself never claimed so in his own words.

Quote:
I can sense your desperations and that is why you are twisting in every possible angle.
I can certainly understand your desperation because I know this subject better than you do.

Quote:
It is so obvious in the Quran, Allah condemned the Jews and Christians as corrupting the Torah and Injil.
Just repeating it like a parrot again and again won't make it true.
Not all the Jews and Christians are condemned but only some of them for not observing the Torah and forgetting what they were remanded of.

Quote:
Truly:
The more exact reality in history is Muhammad [where he authored the Quran] was the one who accused the Jews and Quran as corrupting the Torah and Injil because he 'imagined' they excluded the verses that could make it easier to substantiate Muhammad as the prophesized messenger.
False accusation!

Muhammad didn't even know what the revelation was until made aware of by Allah through the Qur'an. In the Qur'an, he was directed by Allah to Jews and Christians (who read the previous scriptures) to know what is revelation.

[10.94] But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

It does not say "corrupted book" but "book".

The heap of accusations directed towards Muhammad by some people is utter ignorance of the facts about the revelation of the Qur'an, and is nothing but just hate against Islam.
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Old 06-09-2016, 11:45 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You have not demonstrated that the Qur'an condemned their scriptures are corrupted. Nowhere in the Qur'an their scriptures are condemned as corrupted.
I have provided the supporting verses where Allah condemned the Jews and Christians as having changed, altered, hide verses from the original revelations from Allah.
This is proven from the present Torah and Injil where there is a lot of differences from the doctrines of the Quran.
If the Torah and Injil had not been corrupted then there should be no controversial verses between them [as present] and the Quran [at present].
Because there are serious difference in doctrine between the Torah & Injil and the Quran, therefore it confirm Allah assertion that they former are corrupted.


Quote:
The Qur'an does not say so. It confirms, "which you possess already".
Stating "which you possess already" do not implied absolute confirmation at all.

The possibility is Allah could refer to a group of Jews or Christians who had the original full version. But this is not likely.

The more likely is it refer to what they have in [between their] hand and in reference to the majority of the verses which are inline with the Quran but it does not mean 100%.
In various verses Allah asserted the Torah and Injil are corrupted as far as the critical verses are concern and this could be say x quantity of verses [or whatever].
Therefore when Allah state it confirms, it does not mean 100% but only those verses that are the same as the Quran's but we cannot ignore the critical verses that were altered, changed or forgotten.

Quote:
Injil is what was preached by Jesus. Jesus never preached that he is begotten son of God. The Qur'an confirms this, and Jesus will deny on the day of judgment that he had preached that he is begotten son of God or even God and preached that the Christians should worship him.
From the Quran and Islam perspective, the original Injil from Allah did not reflect Jesus asserted he is the begotten son of God.
But where is that copy of Injil [Quranic version] that stated Jesus was the son of Mary, merely a prophet, was never crucified, etc. There is No such copy of the Injil.
The only Injil that we can refer to is the present copy in the NT and this NT can be traced to before Muhammad.
This prove Allah knew the Injil was corrupted long ago.
If Allah confirm what the Jews or Christian has on hand, it refer to verses that are not corrupted.

Quote:
Is this in reference to their scriptures or to the revelation of the Qur'an?
Those are verses in the Quran which accused the Jews and Christians as changing and corrupting the original texts from Allah.

Quote:
It is not what was in the Injil but what has been made of the Injil in terms of doctrine and interpretation. No quote of Jesus (Injil) is rejected in the Qur'an. It is what is made of his quotes that is rejected in the Qur'an. The Qur'an also reconfirms what has been "forgotten" of the Injil (2:106). Nothing has been forgotten of the Qur'an.
Note;
1. Allah sent the original Injil to Jesus. [e.g. Jesus was human and prophet of Allah not son].
2. Allah in the Quran condemned, after Jesus' death, the Christians changed the texts.
3. The present Injil of the Christian assert Jesus is the begotten Son.
4. Therefore the present Injil is corrupted when it was changed.

Quote:
An unbeliever telling a believer that he does not understand the Qur'an, is really stupid. If I learn the Qur'an from an unbeliever, I am certain to end up in hell fire with such an unbeliever.
This is very possible.
A believer by default MUST be bias to deal with the desperate existential psychology within him.
That is why believers rely on faith and not proofs and justifiable reasons.
With faith, a believer will take a lie as truth if necessary otherwise his faith will be shaken.

Therefore an unbeliever who is intelligent, rational, unbias, credible it more likely to have a greater objective understanding of the Quran than the average Muslim.

It is true if you learn from a credible unbeliever you could end up in a made-believed Hell in accordance to the Quran. But Hell is a lie. Therefore if you learn from an unbeliever, you will learn the truth and not a lie.

Quote:
How can you say "obviously" when neither the Jews nor the Christians are mentioned in the verse? Why not people of Lot and apostates?
That is because you have only read the Quran 6-7 times.
If you read the Quran chronologically, one will feel the tension of anger building up in the author [i.e. Muhammad] of the Quran because the Jews were accused of changing or left out the verses that would have supported that Muhammad [Ahmed] prophesized in the Torah.

The term "wrath" is directed at the Jews in many occasions, e.g.

Quote:
2:59 But those who did wrong changed the word which had been told them for another saying, and We sent down upon the evil-doers wrath from heaven for their evil-doing.
In addition the Jews also mocked Muhammad because Muhammad was not smart enough to out debate the Jews.

This anger and hatred of the Jews is well ingrained and imbued into the ethos of the Quran and Islam, and the evidence of it manifesting in SOME Muslims in reality is SO obvious. You will be dumb to deny this reality.

Quote:
It is not corruption of the text but of their original belief. Their original belief was "One God" and the only God to be worshiped.
There is the original revelations from Allah sent via Jesus.
When the Christians [as accused] changed the revelations and put those changes in texts, that is obvious the texts are corrupted.
Hey are you dreaming, note my OP;
"Quran Claimed Present Torah, Gospels are Corrupted."

Quote:
Revealed Injil is what was preached by Jesus. Jesus never claimed or preached that he is begotten son of God. Words of other people cannot be assumed as teachings of Jesus. The same is the case with the revelation to Muhammad. It is only the Qur'an that is from Allah and not the hadith books. Muhammad wasn't preaching hadith books but the Qur'an. The only scriptures for Muslims are the verses of the Qur'an. The Qur'an is not corrupted just because there are some hadith books.
Note again my points as above;

1. Allah sent the original Injil to Jesus. [e.g. Jesus was human and prophet of Allah not son].
2. After Jesus' death, the Christians changed the texts.
3. The present Injil of the Christian assert Jesus is the begotten Son.
4. Therefore the present Injil is corrupted when it was changed.

Note Allah obviously knew what he delivered to Jesus.
What Allah is condemning in the Quran is the Christians after Jesus' death, changed Allah revelations.

YEs, the "words of other people cannot be assumed as teachings of Jesus" as you had stated.
But the point is these words of other people are put into texts [NT] and claimed to be from Allah by the Christians.
Allah is condemning this as corruption of his original revelations.
Get this?

Quote:
Allah does not condemn Injil but those who assign a son to Allah.
It is obvious Allah will not condemned his own Injil as originally delivered to Jesus.
Allah was condemning the "Injil" which the Christians had then and now is corrupted because it is not in accordance to the original Injil delivered to Jesus.

Quote:
No. Speak is words of their mouth only and Injil is in text attributed to what Jesus had actually spoken.
You are very confused.
As I had stated above, after Jesus's death the Christians changed the texts of the Injil say between 100AD to 600AD.
Now obviously when the Christians spoke then, they must be speaking with reference to the written texts.
Allah is condemning the Christians for speaking from the corrupted texts of the Injil.

As for "confirmation" this refers to the unchanged verses which are similar to the Quran.

Quote:
Nowhere even in the Gospels Jesus had claimed to be the begotten son of God. It is made up by other people long after Jesus. Jesus himself never claimed so in his own words.
Yes according the Islamic Allah, the Gospels did not claim Jesus to be the begotten son of God.
But in accordance to the Christian God, the Gospels claimed Jesus is the begotten son of God.
Thus the Islamic Allah condemned the Christian's version of the Gospel as corrupted because it was changed.
You can verify this in the present NT in the present Bible which is different from the present Quran's version of Jesus' status.
Thus the OP is correct because the difference is obvious, thus the Islamic Allah in the Quran condemned the Christians' version of the Gospel as corrupted.

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I can certainly understand your desperation because I know this subject better than you do.
Yours is an imagination and a very subjective opinion. The proofs of who know better is in the objective views in my posts.

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Just repeating it like a parrot again and again won't make it true.
Not all the Jews and Christians are condemned but only some of them for not observing the Torah and forgetting what they were remanded of.
Regardless of some or more the fact is the present Torah and Gospels are critically different from the present Quran.
Therefore from Islam point of view the present Torah and Injil are corrupted and this is supported by the various verses [I have provided] that accused them of being corrupted.

Quote:
False accusation!

Muhammad didn't even know what the revelation was until made aware of by Allah through the Qur'an. In the Qur'an, he was directed by Allah to Jews and Christians (who read the previous scriptures) to know what is revelation.

[10.94] But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

It does not say "corrupted book" but "book".

The heap of accusations directed towards Muhammad by some people is utter ignorance of the facts about the revelation of the Qur'an, and is nothing but just hate against Islam.
Yours is an imagination and false accusation of hate.

There are undeniable facts of terrible evils and violence committed by SOME [not all] Muslims who were born with evil tendencies and are influenced and inspired by lots of evil laden verses in the Quran and the martial ethos Muhammad. There is no way you can deny this. Thus my basis is reality and not some imaginations.

Now these terrible evils and violence is a threat to humanity and has an impact on me personally. In view of this, I have the right to be critical of those evils and violence to trace the root causes. Such an exercise is doing a favor and contribution to the good of humanity out of empathy and compassion. If no one bother to criticize such evils and violence it will continue forever. In view of such a positive efforts why you do associate it with 'hate'.

I have also provided you facts from research of how thousands of people in history who has altered states of consciousness are prone to claim to be agent of God. Such experiences are illusory and can be cured by medicines and counselling. Muhammad have had altered states of consciousness and bad trips.

I have also argued and presented the psychological basis of a believer who MUST be bias or else his/her faith will not work.
I have presented many other facts and justifiable arguments.

If you want to accuse me making false accusations and hate, you need to provide objective arguments to show me where I am wrong. So far you have presented no objective arguments I am wrong [if objective I will accept] but merely subjective opinions.
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Old 06-10-2016, 02:54 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have provided the supporting verses where Allah condemned the Jews and Christians as having changed, altered, hide verses from the original revelations from Allah.
The verses are not supporting your claim.

Quote:
This is proven from the present Torah and Injil where there is a lot of differences from the doctrines of the Quran.
Such as?

Is the difference in doctrine only or in scriptures of Moses and the Qur'an?

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If the Torah and Injil had not been corrupted then there should be no controversial verses between them [as present] and the Quran [at present].
If they are "controversial" in your mind, does not mean they ARE corrupted. In your mind, the whole Qur'an is full of "controversial" verses. That does not mean that the Qur'an is corrupted.

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Because there are serious difference in doctrine between the Torah & Injil and the Quran, therefore it confirm Allah assertion that they former are corrupted.
"Serious difference" is in your mind only or else Allah would not have confirmed in the Qur'an what is in their possession.

The real thing is what is revealed rather than a doctrine created by people much later.

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Stating "which you possess already" do not implied absolute confirmation at all.
It implies no corruption.

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From the Quran and Islam perspective, the original Injil from Allah did not reflect Jesus asserted he is the begotten son of God.
Even in the Gospels, Jesus never claimed that he is begotten son of God.

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But where is that copy of Injil [Quranic version] that stated Jesus was the son of Mary, merely a prophet, was never crucified, etc. There is No such copy of the Injil.
There can't be once he was no longer with them and they had assumed that he had been crucified and had died on the cross. You expect Injil to be revealed to Jesus after that event that Jesus was crucified and died? Do you know why Jesus was hiding from the Jews after the crucifixion event?

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Those are verses in the Quran which accused the Jews and Christians as changing and corrupting the original texts from Allah.
There has never been any "text" from Allah apart from the tablets Moses brought down from the mountain.

Quote:
Note;
1. Allah sent the original Injil to Jesus. [e.g. Jesus was human and prophet of Allah not son].
2. Allah in the Quran condemned, after Jesus' death, the Christians changed the texts.
3. The present Injil of the Christian assert Jesus is the begotten Son.
4. Therefore the present Injil is corrupted when it was changed.
There is difference in Christians claiming in Gospels that Jesus is begotten son of God and Allah claiming in the Injil preached by Jesus that Jesus is begotten son of God.

Whatever Allah or Jesus claimed is Injil but not what Christians claimed afterwards. Injil is not from Christians. You need to understand the difference.

Quote:
That is because you have only read the Quran 6-7 times.
If you read the Quran chronologically, one will feel the tension of anger building up in the author [i.e. Muhammad] of the Quran because the Jews were accused of changing or left out the verses that would have supported that Muhammad [Ahmed] prophesized in the Torah.
This is where your 50+ readings of translations haven't helped you at all. Prophecy of "ahmad" is still there. Ahmad is an Arabic word (not Aramic, Greek or English) and it has certain meanings in Arabic. The prophecy of Jesus is according to those meanings of "ahmad".

Therefore, the Qur'an is correct to tell the Jews and Christians to keep up with the Torah and Injil (5:68). Allah would have told them to forget the Torah and Injil, as they are changed and corrupted, and just keep up with the Qur'an only, if the Torah and Injil had been corrupted. Yes?
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Old 06-10-2016, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Note I have taken meaning Injil and Gospels interchangeably. The both refer to those revelations that were delivered to Jesus from God.
The Arab Christians would called those revelation from Jesus as Injil.
So it is just a matter of getting the context [Islam's or Christians' version] right and the word is not critical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The verses are not supporting your claim.
Why?

In the Quran;
1. Allah's delivered perfect scriptures to mankind, thus cannot be changed.
2. The Quran re Muhammad confirmed the older original versions.
3. In the Quran, Allah condemned the Jews and Christians changed the Torah and Injil.
4. The present Torah and Injil are different from the Quran.
5. Therefore, because the Torah and Injil are changed, they corrupted.

Explain why if you insist the present Injil and Torah are not corrupted.

Quote:
Such as?
Is the difference in doctrine only or in scriptures of Moses and the Qur'an?
The point here is Allah's delivered words are supposed to be perfect thus cannot be changed. Allah stated that many times in the Quran.
Regardless of whether it is doctrine or otherwise, as long as the words are changed from the original version of the Quran [Allah's words], then the present copy of the Torah and Injil are corrupted.

Difference between Torah and Quran, note some examples here;
Why Do The Bible And The Qur'an Not Agree?
re Noah, Abraham, Judges 7, etc.

Quote:
If they are "controversial" in your mind, does not mean they ARE corrupted. In your mind, the whole Qur'an is full of "controversial" verses. That does not mean that the Qur'an is corrupted.
Hey! stop dreaming.
I have already given you the meaning of what is corruption in relation to texts.
I did not state the Quran is corrupted in this case.
The Quran accused [wrongly] in many verses, the Torah and Injil are corrupted because they different from the original revelation from Allah.

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"Serious difference" is in your mind only or else Allah would not have confirmed in the Qur'an what is in their possession.
I have argued confirmed do not imply 100%.
In some context, the term "Quran" refers to the revelations, i.e. the major and not every single verse.
A lecturer may confirm a certain textbook which has some errors as a good reference and will ask student to refer to that text book but caution them to the specific errors in the book. [A]
Quote:
The real thing is what is revealed rather than a doctrine created by people much later.
You are off topic on this.
The OP is "Quran Claimed Present Torah, Gospels are Corrupted "

Note there is no real thing on what was revealed at present to compare.
Show me where it is.
In the absence of the real original Torah and Injil from Allah, all we have it to take Allah's words for it that the Torah and Injil was corrupted after it was revealed and this can be confirmed by comparing the present Torah and Injil with the final Quran of Muhammad.

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It implies no corruption.
As I had stated show me the real original that was in their hand to confirm there was no corruption? You cannot.
Refer to my point above, re [A]

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Even in the Gospels, Jesus never claimed that he is begotten son of God.
Allah claimed Allah did not reveal this is the Islamic version of the Gospels.
There are no real version of such an Islamic version to verify.

But the Christians' version stated the following;
For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten Son
that whosoever believeth in him
should not perish
but have everlasting life.
—John 3:16, King James Version (KJV), 1611.
You are dreaming again.

Quote:
There can't be once he was no longer with them and they had assumed that he had been crucified and had died on the cross. You expect Injil to be revealed to Jesus after that event that Jesus was crucified and died? Do you know why Jesus was hiding from the Jews after the crucifixion event?
I am not going waste discussing the why here.
The point is the version of the death of Jesus is totally different between the Christians' Gospel and the Quran. Therefore one has to be right. The Quran claimed the Christians' Gospel is corrupted thus false on this issue.

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There has never been any "text" from Allah apart from the tablets Moses brought down from the mountain.
"Text" in this case meant the original revelations via oral means or texts.

Quote:
There is difference in Christians claiming in Gospels that Jesus is begotten son of God and Allah claiming in the Injil preached by Jesus that Jesus is begotten son of God.

Whatever Allah or Jesus claimed is Injil but not what Christians claimed afterwards. Injil is not from Christians. You need to understand the difference.
Note I have taken Injil and Gospels interchangeably. The both refer to those revelations that were delivered to Jesus from God.
The Arab Christians would called those revelation from Jesus as Injil.
So it is just a matter of getting the context right and the word is not critical.

Quote:
This is where your 50+ readings of translations haven't helped you at all. Prophecy of "ahmad" is still there. Ahmad is an Arabic word (not Aramic, Greek or English) and it has certain meanings in Arabic. The prophecy of Jesus is according to those meanings of "ahmad".
I stated because the Jews were accused of changing or left out the verses. I admit I am not an expert on the Torah, however that prophesized "name" is very controversial.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_in_the_Bible

Quote:
Therefore, the Qur'an is correct to tell the Jews and Christians to keep up with the Torah and Injil (5:68). Allah would have told them to forget the Torah and Injil, as they are changed and corrupted, and just keep up with the Qur'an only, if the Torah and Injil had been corrupted. Yes?
The general rule is whenever Allah refers to the Torah and Injil positively, it by default refers to the verses and elements that agree with what is in the Quran and no where else.
As Allah has stated, the Quran confirm the original older Torah and Injil [no copies available for comparison].

If you do not read 5:68 in its proper context but literally then every Muslims must comply with every verse in the present Torah and Gospels which the Jews and Christians argued were never changed at all.
Do you agree with this and the confusions that arise with it?

All the above mess and controversies arise because the Quran was authored by fallible humans and not a supposedly all-knowing perfect God.
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