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Old 06-13-2016, 07:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note I have taken meaning Injil and Gospels interchangeably. The both refer to those revelations that were delivered to Jesus from God.
The Arab Christians would called those revelation from Jesus as Injil.
So it is just a matter of getting the context [Islam's or Christians' version] right and the word is not critical.

Why?

In the Quran;
1. Allah's delivered perfect scriptures to mankind, thus cannot be changed.
2. The Quran re Muhammad confirmed the older original versions.
3. In the Quran, Allah condemned the Jews and Christians changed the Torah and Injil.
4. The present Torah and Injil are different from the Quran.
5. Therefore, because the Torah and Injil are changed, they corrupted.

Explain why if you insist the present Injil and Torah are not corrupted.
Because the Qur'an does not say that the Torah and the Injil in their possession, at the revelation of the Qur'an, are changed.

The confusion is in your mind. You claim first that the Qur'an claimed that the Torah and the Injil are "corrupted". Then you say (5. above) they are corrupted because they are changed. Is it because they are changed that they are corrupted or is it because the Qur'an claims that they are corrupted? You have to decide which is your real stance.

The reality is that your original claim is false and now you are looking for something to qualify your false claim.

Allah sent revelation to mankind and mankind cannot change it because if they corrupt it ALLAH will send the correct one again. This way the truth (Allah's words) will prevail once more. This is reference to SOME people in Madina who had tried to change the verses of the Qur'an as it was being revealed but failed.

[5.41] O messenger! Let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths: We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.

The Qur'an cannot be changed because Allah is its Guardian.

[3.58] This We recite to you of the ayat and the wise Reminder.

[15.9] Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.


Quote:
The point here is Allah's delivered words are supposed to be perfect thus cannot be changed. Allah stated that many times in the Quran.
Qur'an cannot be changed. When you say that the Qur'an "implies" so and so, you try to change the words of Allah. But because Allah's words can't be changed, the Qur'an carries on without being corrupted.

Quote:
Regardless of whether it is doctrine or otherwise, as long as the words are changed from the original version of the Quran [Allah's words], then the present copy of the Torah and Injil are corrupted.
All the original words of the Qur'an are still there in the Qur'an. The Torah and the Injil are not the Qur'an but the Torah and the Injil, confirmed by the Qur'an. Nowhere in the Qur'an I read in the words of Allah that the Torah and the Injil is corrupted. Any corruption is in the words of men. Words of men is neither the Torah nor the Injil.

Quote:
Difference between Torah and Quran, note some examples here;
Why Do The Bible And The Qur'an Not Agree?
re Noah, Abraham, Judges 7, etc.
You will never learn about the Qur'an if you go to Islam hating sites.

Quote:
Hey! stop dreaming.
I have already given you the meaning of what is corruption in relation to texts.
I did not state the Quran is corrupted in this case.
The Quran accused [wrongly] in many verses, the Torah and Injil are corrupted because they different from the original revelation from Allah.
No verse of the qur'an says that the Torah and the Injil are corrupted. You haven't quoted even one verse of the Qur'an in which Allah's words read, "the Torah and the Injil are corrupted".

Quote:
You are off topic on this.
The OP is "Quran Claimed Present Torah, Gospels are Corrupted "
In which verse of the Qur'an is claimed present Torah and Gospels are corrupted?

Quote:
The point is the version of the death of Jesus is totally different between the Christians' Gospel and the Quran. Therefore one has to be right. The Quran claimed the Christians' Gospel is corrupted thus false on this issue.
You misunderstand again!

The version of death of Jesus in the Gospels is not from Allah but from the Gospel writers from themselves. Injil is from Allah as delivered by Jesus. Therefore it has to be in the delivered words by Jesus. There is no actual death version of Jesus by Jesus that is Injil.

Quote:
Note I have taken Injil and Gospels interchangeably. The both refer to those revelations that were delivered to Jesus from God.
Correct view!

They refer to those revelations from God that were delivered by Jesus to his followers. Anything that was not delivered by Jesus is not Injil because it is not in the words of God that Jesus delivered.

Quote:
The Arab Christians would called those revelation from Jesus as Injil.
So it is just a matter of getting the context right and the word is not critical.
But version of death on the cross is not from Jesus but from other people.

Quote:
The general rule is whenever Allah refers to the Torah and Injil positively, it by default refers to the verses and elements that agree with what is in the Quran and no where else.
As Allah has stated, the Quran confirm the original older Torah and Injil [no copies available for comparison].
Not original older Torah and Injil but what was in their possession at the time of revelation of the Qur'an.

Quote:
If you do not read 5:68 in its proper context but literally then every Muslims must comply with every verse in the present Torah and Gospels which the Jews and Christians argued were never changed at all.
Do you agree with this and the confusions that arise with it?
There is no confusion in my mind as to 5:68. It is directed at Jews and Christians but the confusion is in your mind because you can't understand the Qur'an despite reading it fast 50+ times.

I do not read and understand the verses of the Qur'an in isolation from all the other verses on the same subject as you do. I take all the other verses on the subject into account to understand any one verse. The verse 5:68 is telling the Jews and Christians to keep up with the Torah, Injil and the Qur'an.

Quote:
All the above mess and controversies arise because the Quran was authored by fallible humans and not a supposedly all-knowing perfect God.
All the mess and confusion in your mind arises from your own lack of ability to understand the full picture. The Torah, Injil and the Qur'an are all from the same God. The differences are for a reason that I can understand but you can't. For example, full day as Sabbath did not apply to the Jews prior to the Sinai revelation (The Torah). Then it was abolished because it had served its purpose and the law about it reversed as there was no need left for it. This is not corruption of Allah's words or that Allah's words can't be changed by Allah. It is man who can't change the words of Allah.
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Because the Qur'an does not say that the Torah and the Injil in their possession, at the revelation of the Qur'an, are changed.
What was revealed to the Jews and Christians were the Torah and Injil respectively.
Note I have given you examples of verses where the Quran specifically stated the Jews and Christians has changed what was revealed to them from Allah.
That means whatever the Torah and Injil has a present are corrupted as has been corrupted after they were revealed to the Jews and Christians.

Quote:
The confusion is in your mind. You claim first that the Qur'an claimed that the Torah and the Injil are "corrupted". Then you say (5. above) they are corrupted because they are changed. Is it because they are changed that they are corrupted or is it because the Qur'an claims that they are corrupted? You have to decide which is your real stance.
The confusion is in YOUR mind, you are merely playing with words. Note my point;

In the Quran;
1. Allah's delivered perfect scriptures to mankind, thus cannot be changed.
2. The Quran re Muhammad confirmed the older original versions.
3. In the Quran, Allah condemned the Jews and Christians changed the Torah and Injil.

4. The present Torah and Injil are different from the Quran.
5. Therefore, because the Torah and Injil are changed, they corrupted.

The above is very clear.
Let me restate, the Quran condemned the Torah and Injil as corrupted because the Quran stated they were changed by the Jews and Christians respectively after they were revealed by Allah.

What is your issue with the above.

Quote:
The reality is that your original claim is false and now you are looking for something to qualify your false claim.

Allah sent revelation to mankind and mankind cannot change it because if they corrupt it ALLAH will send the correct one again. This way the truth (Allah's words) will prevail once more. This is reference to SOME people in Madina who had tried to change the verses of the Qur'an as it was being revealed but failed.

[5.41] O messenger! Let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths: We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.

The Qur'an cannot be changed because Allah is its Guardian.

[3.58] This We recite to you of the ayat and the wise Reminder.

[15.9] Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.


Qur'an cannot be changed. When you say that the Qur'an "implies" so and so, you try to change the words of Allah. But because Allah's words can't be changed, the Qur'an carries on without being corrupted.
You are wrong!
Allah sent revelations to mankind and mankind is not supposed to change it.
But the Quran stated mankind deliberately changed it [the Quran-of-old] and thus the changed version is the corrupted version.
Allah later sent newer versions to mankind.
But the fact is the corrupted version remain in the hands of the Jews and Christians till the present.
This is a fact which can be verified and proven.
Therefore it is a fact the present Torah and Injil are corrupted from Islam's point of view.

Quote:
All the original words of the Qur'an are still there in the Qur'an.
That is your opinion. In reality because humans are involved it impossible for the present Quran to be the same as the original version. This is another topic and OP.

Quote:
The Torah and the Injil are not the Qur'an but the Torah and the Injil, confirmed by the Qur'an. Nowhere in the Qur'an I read in the words of Allah that the Torah and the Injil is corrupted. Any corruption is in the words of men. Words of men is neither the Torah nor the Injil.
That is the problem with you having read the Quran ONLY 6-7 times at one go.
There are sufficient verses in the whole context of the Quran for any one to refer the Quran claimed the Torah and Injil are corrupted. Whilst the Quran may not specifically "Torah" and "Injil" the Quran used the term 'revelations' words of Allah, Laws and Scripture which is sufficient for any one of average intelligence to understand that refer to the Torah and Scriptures.

The final proof is the present Torah and Injil do in fact differ from the present Quran.
If one trace backward from this fact, they are supported by all the verses I had quoted and my main claim that the Quran condemned the Torah and Injil as corrupted.

Re "confirmed" this is a general statement, what is confirmed refer only to elements that agree with the latest Quran.

Quote:
You will never learn about the Qur'an if you go to Islam hating sites.
If you want to restrict and insult your intelligence, don't advise me to follow your stance.
I will go to any sources and use my discretion to ensure what I accept is objective, verifiable and rational.

Quote:
No verse of the qur'an says that the Torah and the Injil are corrupted. You haven't quoted even one verse of the Qur'an in which Allah's words read, "the Torah and the Injil are corrupted".

In which verse of the Qur'an is claimed present Torah and Gospels are corrupted?
Note my explanation above.

Quote:
You misunderstand again!

The version of death of Jesus in the Gospels is not from Allah but from the Gospel writers from themselves. Injil is from Allah as delivered by Jesus. Therefore it has to be in the delivered words by Jesus. There is no actual death version of Jesus by Jesus that is Injil.
That is the point.
That is why Allah condemned the Torah and Injil were changed by the Jews and Christians after they were revealed by Allah.
This corruption is proven by the differences between the present Torah & Injil and the present Quran

Quote:
Correct view!
They refer to those revelations from God that were delivered by Jesus to his followers. Anything that was not delivered by Jesus is not Injil because it is not in the words of God that Jesus delivered.
Re the above I see it differently.
1. The Injil from the Quran perspectives refer to the original revelation revealed to Jesus.
2. However the Injil [Arabic] and Gospel [English] from the Christians' perspective also refer to revelation from Jesus and it was not changed from the original.

If you view from outside the Muslim-box there are two versions of the Injil [Gospel in English] where
1. The Quran claimed the Christians' version is corrupted.
2. The Christians' claimed their Gospel is the original from Jesus [Son of God] and they claimed the Quran's view of the Gospel is corrupted and from Satan.

Now which view is the true view?

Regardless of which is the true or false view, the point is the Quran do claim the Injil [Gospel] has been corrupted by the Christians as proven by the differences in the present Quran and Injil.

Quote:
But version of death on the cross is not from Jesus but from other people.
Note my analyzed explanation above where there are two claims, i.e. from the Muslims' and the one from the Christians' regarding the Injil [Gospels].

Quote:
Not original older Torah and Injil but what was in their possession at the time of revelation of the Qur'an.
I mentioned 'what was confirmed' is a general statement.
There could be thousands of written copies of the Torah in the possession of many Jews wherever they exist.
There may be copies of the Torah which may not be corrupted and some that are corrupted.
When Allah stated "in their possession" who is "their" referred to. Did Allah refer to Jew A, B, C or X, Y, Z?
This problematic situation imply that Allah was making a general statement.
BUT the fact is there are no copies of the Original Torah that is confirmed by the Quran available for verification at present. All the available copies of the present Torah at present has DIFFERENCES from the Quran.
This prove what the Quran condemnation that the Torah [refer as scripture, revelations, words] was corrupted is true!.
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There is no confusion in my mind as to 5:68. It is directed at Jews and Christians but the confusion is in your mind because you can't understand the Qur'an despite reading it fast 50+ times.

I do not read and understand the verses of the Qur'an in isolation from all the other verses on the same subject as you do. I take all the other verses on the subject into account to understand any one verse. The verse 5:68 is telling the Jews and Christians to keep up with the Torah, Injil and the Qur'an.

All the mess and confusion in your mind arises from your own lack of ability to understand the full picture. The Torah, Injil and the Qur'an are all from the same God. The differences are for a reason that I can understand but you can't. For example, full day as Sabbath did not apply to the Jews prior to the Sinai revelation (The Torah). Then it was abolished because it had served its purpose and the law about it reversed as there was no need left for it. This is not corruption of Allah's words or that Allah's words can't be changed by Allah. It is man who can't change the words of Allah.
You are twisting and turning with Allah's words. Why do you keep insisting I read the Quran fast?
Initially when I started it was definitely very slow but when I reached the plateau of the learning curve, then it became fast without compromising my understanding of the Quran. If you want to insult your own intelligence don't try to infect me with your insulting virus as well.

Are you familiar with the Principles of the Learning Curve, if you ask your children.
The Learning Curve | in Chapter 07: Cognition | from Psychology: An Introduction by Russ Dewey



5:68. [Part] Say: O People of the Scripture! [Jews & Christians] Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord.
The implication is

The Torah, Injil and Quran are the perfect words of God.
If the present Torah and Injil are not corrupted,
why are you not following and complying with the verses in the Torah and Injil as well?

If the present Torah and Injil are perfect and not corrupted,
why are there significant differences between the present Quran and the Torah & Injil as well?

Since the Torah, Injil and Quran are all the perfect words of God and you insist the Torah and Injil were not corrupted, there is no reason for you not to comply with them at present.
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Old 06-14-2016, 05:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are twisting and turning with Allah's words. Why do you keep insisting I read the Quran fast?
You had once stated that you read the translations in English fast. And you had twisted Allah's words when you claimed that the Qur'an claimed, "the Torah and Injil are corrupted".

Quote:
Initially when I started it was definitely very slow but when I reached the plateau of the learning curve, then it became fast without compromising my understanding of the Quran. If you want to insult your own intelligence don't try to infect me with your insulting virus as well.
Too late; you are already infected!

Quote:
5:68. [Part] Say: O People of the Scripture! [Jews & Christians] Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord.
The implication is

The Torah, Injil and Quran are the perfect words of God.
If the present Torah and Injil are not corrupted,
why are you not following and complying with the verses in the Torah and Injil as well?
That is diverting attention from your claim of OP! Why? Can't you just accept that claim of OP is false?

As to your further question, anything that is not in the Qur'an but is in the Torah and Injil, we believe it to be from Allah and do follow unless not applicable to us but only to the Israelites. Circumcision is prime example that we follow as it is a token of submission to the Will of God.

Quote:
If the present Torah and Injil are perfect and not corrupted,
why are there significant differences between the present Quran and the Torah & Injil as well?
That is quite understandable! All three are not exactly the same or else it won't be three but one. The differences are not in fundamental belief but in acts of devotions which is quite understandable. You can understand it all only if you study the Qur'an rather than merely read it fast.

Quote:
Since the Torah, Injil and Quran are all the perfect words of God and you insist the Torah and Injil were not corrupted, there is no reason for you not to comply with them at present.
I do unless Allah informed us not to do or do it differently. That does not make the Torah and the Injil not words of God. Abraham was told by God to leave his father but I haven't been told through the Qur'an to leave my father. That does not mean that command to Abraham was not from God.

And you still won't find any verse in the Qur'an that says, "the Torah and the Injil are corrupted".
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Old 06-14-2016, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You had once stated that you read the translations in English fast. And you had twisted Allah's words when you claimed that the Qur'an claimed, "the Torah and Injil are corrupted".
I did not assert I read the translations in English 'fast' as in scanning through it without understanding it deeply and thoroughly.
I issue involved was Woodrow LI mentioned it generally takes 30 hours to read the whole Quran at one go and discussion went along that line.
I claimed I can read the whole Quran [English] at one go in 10 hours [could be less]. I can do it at present because I have done sufficient preparations to do so including going through it initially, summarizing each verse, analyzing, classifying and categorizing the elements of each verses. Now relative to the 30 hours mentioned by Woodrow LI, my reading speed at present is fast. Btw, I did not mention 'fast' it was you who mentioned 'fast' in an attempt to put a put-down spin to it.

Quote:
Too late; you are already infected!
Btw, do you understand the Principles of the Learning Curve I mentioned and linked above. If you do, you should know your virus is very malignant.

Quote:
That is diverting attention from your claim of OP! Why? Can't you just accept that claim of OP is false?
My OP is correct and relevant in the present context because the present Quran as it is and the present Injil & Torah exist as they are for all to verify their contents.
Obviously you should be able to read I did not mean the Quran compiled around 700AD and later was talking about the future in 2016.

Quote:
As to your further question, anything that is not in the Qur'an but is in the Torah and Injil, we believe it to be from Allah and do follow unless not applicable to us but only to the Israelites. Circumcision is prime example that we follow as it is a token of submission to the Will of God.
There are difference in universal elements, such as the overriding pacifist maxim, i.e. 'love your enemies' and the likes in the Gospel. The Quran on the hand do not has such pacifist maxim and present DUCK-RABBIT two truths verses relating to various evils and violence where either way it is true to Allah.
Why do Allah have double standards that are effective at present?

Quote:
That is quite understandable! All three are not exactly the same or else it won't be three but one. The differences are not in fundamental belief but in acts of devotions which is quite understandable. You can understand it all only if you study the Qur'an rather than merely read it fast.
Note my point above.

Quote:
I do unless Allah informed us not to do or do it differently. That does not make the Torah and the Injil not words of God. Abraham was told by God to leave his father but I haven't been told through the Qur'an to leave my father. That does not mean that command to Abraham was not from God.
According to Islam the Torah and Injil that were originally revealed were from Allah. Therefore they were the words of God. BUT the problem is these perfect original versions from Allah are not available in texts at present. Therefore there is nothing of the original Torah and Injil for Muslims to refer to.

What is have are the present Torah and Injil that are adopted and practiced by the Jews and Christians respectively.
But it is very evident the present Torah and Injil different significantly in the main doctrines and data from the present Quran.
Obviously there are elements that are similar within the present Torah, Injil and the Quran, e.g. the Monothestic God [despite the Muslims wrongly accusing the Christian's Trinity]. But because of the significant difference and that Allah has implied the Torah and Injil are corrupted the Muslims cannot accept them on a whole basis except on a verse to verse basis.

Quote:
And you still won't find any verse in the Qur'an that says, "the Torah and the Injil are corrupted".
I[?] don't think the Quran used the term 'corruption' to refer to the holy texts.
The term 'corruption' [Pickthall] is used to refer to the bad deeds [e.g. muf'sidīna مُفْسِدِينَ ف س د , fitna, etc.] of the non-Muslims.

What Allah had described in many verses and condemning the Jews and Christians is they had changed, altered, edit, hide the words of Allah's original revelations.
Now, this sin of changing the words of Allah is termed 'corruption' [of texts] in English.
There was no need for Allah then to use such a term if Allah had described the acts in details.
Thus one has to use one's linguistic intelligence to find a suitable word to label those details that Allah described re changes, altering, hiding, etc. by the Jews and Christians.
Get it?

Therefore the above OP is valid within the above contexts.

Last edited by Continuum; 06-14-2016 at 10:05 PM..
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Old 08-07-2016, 03:12 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Khalif,

You keep insisting the Torah and Injil [in time to the present] were never "corrupted" because the Quran did not use the term 'corrupted' in relating to the Torah and Injil.

I suggest you reread the above posts again to understand the OP and note you vocabulary is lacking in this case.

In addition, I suggest you also reread the Quran again in relation to this point.
When you come across 'confirm scripture that you already possessed', put in [] the following 'original uncorrupted Scripture' or the 'corrupted later version' like the following.
2:91. And when it is said unto them [infidels- Jews], Believe [āminū] in that [Quran] which Allah hath revealed,

they [the infidels-Jews] say: We [infidels] believe in that [Scripture -corrupted later version -Torah] which was revealed unto us.

And they [infidels] disbelieve in that [Quran] which cometh after it, though it [Quran] is the truth confirming that [original uncorrupted Scripture -Torah ] which they [Jews] possess.

Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Why then slew ye [infidels] the Prophets of Allah aforetime, if ye are (indeed) believers?
The fact is the there are no copies of the original uncorrupted Scripture to compare. What the Jews have are the one they have on hand which can be traced to whatever justified point in time.

Btw, in reality the Jews and Christians do not agree with the Quran, so whatever accusations the Quran claim the Torah and Gospels are corrupted has no relevance to them at all.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-07-2016 at 03:49 AM..
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Old 08-07-2016, 02:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Khalif,

You keep insisting the Torah and Injil [in time to the present] were never "corrupted" because the Quran did not use the term 'corrupted' in relating to the Torah and Injil.
The claim of OP is not mine but yours. You keep insisting that the Qur'an claimed the present Torah, Gospels are corrupted. Own it instead of attributing anything to me that I haven't claimed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I suggest you reread the above posts again to understand the OP and note you vocabulary is lacking in this case.
No amount of turning and twisting will help you to show me even one verse of the Qur'an to back up your claim of OP. Just accept that you made wrong claim about the Qur'an claiming so and so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In addition, I suggest you also reread the Quran again in relation to this point.
When you come across 'confirm scripture that you already possessed', put in [] the following 'original uncorrupted Scripture' or the 'corrupted later version' like the following.
[indent]2:91. And when it is said unto them [infidels- Jews], Believe [āminū] in that [Quran] which Allah hath revealed,

they [the infidels-Jews] say: We [infidels] believe in that [Scripture -corrupted later version -Torah] which was revealed unto us.
But they never said, "corrupted later version". Why are you making it up from yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
And they [infidels] disbelieve in that [Quran] which cometh after it, though it [Quran] is the truth confirming that [original uncorrupted Scripture -Torah ] which they [Jews] possess.
So which Torah did they possess at the time; corrupted or uncorrupted?

You are contradicting yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The fact is the there are no copies of the original uncorrupted Scripture to compare. What the Jews have are the one they have on hand which can be traced to whatever justified point in time.
You are now looking for a straw to hang on to. You are doing too much mental gymnastics to find a way out of this silly OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Btw, in reality the Jews and Christians do not agree with the Quran, so whatever accusations the Quran claim the Torah and Gospels are corrupted has no relevance to them at all.
The Qur'an does not claim the Torah and the Gospels are corrupted. You haven't quoted even one verse in which the Qur'an claimed that the Torah and the Gospels are corrupted.

[5.68] Say: O followers of the Book! You follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

[2.40] O children of Israel! Call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to
(your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid.

[2.41] And believe in what I have revealed, confirming that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My ayat; and Me, Me alone should you fear.


Therefore, your claim of OP is dismissed.
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Old 08-07-2016, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The claim of OP is not mine but yours. You keep insisting that the Qur'an claimed the present Torah, Gospels are corrupted. Own it instead of attributing anything to me that I haven't claimed!



No amount of turning and twisting will help you to show me even one verse of the Qur'an to back up your claim of OP. Just accept that you made wrong claim about the Qur'an claiming so and so.

But they never said, "corrupted later version". Why are you making it up from yourself?

So which Torah did they possess at the time; corrupted or uncorrupted?

You are contradicting yourself.

You are now looking for a straw to hang on to. You are doing too much mental gymnastics to find a way out of this silly OP.

The Qur'an does not claim the Torah and the Gospels are corrupted. You haven't quoted even one verse in which the Qur'an claimed that the Torah and the Gospels are corrupted.

[5.68] Say: O followers of the Book! You follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

[2.40] O children of Israel! Call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to
(your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid.

[2.41] And believe in what I have revealed, confirming that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My ayat; and Me, Me alone should you fear.


Therefore, your claim of OP is dismissed.
Your argument is useless.

In this thread I have presented the following argument why the Quran claimed the Torah and Injil has been corrupted since the original version was revealed to the respective prophets;

Summary of my argument;
1. Definition of what is corruption of texts
2. Verses that insist the Quran cannot be changed.
3. Verses that show the Torah and Injil has been corrupted [altered, omissions,] as defined.
4. The present Torah and injil has lots of difference with the present Quran.
5. Therefore the Torah and Injil has been corrupted since they were first revealed

1. Definition of what is corruption of texts
Corruption | Definition of Corruption by Merriam-Webster
1: dishonest or illegal behavior especially by powerful people (such as government officials or police officers)
2. : the act of corrupting someone or something
3. : something that has been changed from its original form
http://www.city-data.com/forum/44322922-post12.html
2. Verses that insist the Quran cannot be changed.
seeOP

3. Verses that show the Torah and Injil has been corrupted [altered, omissions,] as defined.
See OP, and here they are again,
2:59. But those [Jews ] who did wrong changed the Word which had been told them for another saying, and We sent down upon the evil-doers wrath from Heaven for their evil doing. [re mentioned of 'Muhammad' in the Torah, note Songs of Solomon]

2:75. Have ye any hope that they [Jews] will be true to you when a party of them [Jews] used to listen to the Word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it knowingly?

2:211. Ask of the Children of Israel [Jews] how many a clear revelation We gave them! He [the Jew] who altereth [change] the grace of Allah after it hath come unto him [Jew] (for him), lo! Allah is severe in punishment.

3:71. O People of the Scripture! [Jews and Christians] Why confound ye [as infidels] truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the truth? [accused Jews of corruption of the scripture]

4:46. Some [ignorant zealous Jews] of those who are Jews change words from their context and say: "We hear and disobey; hear thou as one who heareth not" and "Listen to us!" [Ra'ina] distorting [twisting] with their tongues and slandering religion [alddeeni]. If they [Jews] had said: "We hear and we obey; hear thou, and look at us" it had been better for them, and more upright. But Allah hath cursed them [Jew infidels] for their disbelief, so they [Jews - infidels] believe not, save a few. [Ra'ina - pejorative]

5:13. And because of their [infidel Jews] breaking their covenant, We have cursed them [infidel Jews] and made hard their hearts. They [infidels] change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished*. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from ALL [Jews] save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly. [* cautioned, reproved, scolded, or reminded?]

4. The present Torah and injil has lots of difference with the present Quran.
This is very obvious when one compare the present Quran with the present Torah and Injil. Note for example, the concept of sonship, trinity and so much differences in the various Biblical stories between the Bible and those of the Quran.

5. Therefore the Torah and Injil has been corrupted since they were first revealed.What the Quran claimed is the original versions of the Torah and Quran were in line with Allah's words and is confirmed by the Quran.
But there are no original versions to compare with.
The solid evidence is to compare the present Torah and Injil with the present Quran and it so obvious there is so much differences between them.

Note:
It is only the Quran that claimed the Torah and Injil are corrupted [as defined above] i.e. changed, with omissions, and the likes.
In reality, the Torah and Injil are as original as they have been intended.
The reality is Muhammad or a group of people plagiarized from the Torah and Injil and worst added evil laden elements in the Quran where the overriding absolute moral maxim of killing is replaced with conditional killing and tons of 'hatreds' and contempt against non-Muslims for merely disbelieving Allah and his messenger.

Try countering my arguments above and give me a solid argument instead of merely waving off with loose references.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-07-2016 at 09:37 PM..
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Old 08-13-2016, 08:24 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your argument is useless.

In this thread I have presented the following argument why the Quran claimed the Torah and Injil has been corrupted since the original version was revealed to the respective prophets;

Summary of my argument;
1. Definition of what is corruption of texts
2. Verses that insist the Quran cannot be changed.
3. Verses that show the Torah and Injil has been corrupted [altered, omissions,] as defined.
4. The present Torah and injil has lots of difference with the present Quran.
5. Therefore the Torah and Injil has been corrupted since they were first revealed

1. Definition of what is corruption of texts
Corruption | Definition of Corruption by Merriam-Webster
1: dishonest or illegal behavior especially by powerful people (such as government officials or police officers)
2. : the act of corrupting someone or something
3. : something that has been changed from its original form
http://www.city-data.com/forum/44322922-post12.html
2. Verses that insist the Quran cannot be changed.
seeOP

3. Verses that show the Torah and Injil has been corrupted [altered, omissions,] as defined.
See OP, and here they are again,
2:59. But those [Jews ] who did wrong changed the Word which had been told them for another saying, and We sent down upon the evil-doers wrath from Heaven for their evil doing. [re mentioned of 'Muhammad' in the Torah, note Songs of Solomon]

2:75. Have ye any hope that they [Jews] will be true to you when a party of them [Jews] used to listen to the Word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it knowingly?

2:211. Ask of the Children of Israel [Jews] how many a clear revelation We gave them! He [the Jew] who altereth [change] the grace of Allah after it hath come unto him [Jew] (for him), lo! Allah is severe in punishment.

3:71. O People of the Scripture! [Jews and Christians] Why confound ye [as infidels] truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the truth? [accused Jews of corruption of the scripture]

4:46. Some [ignorant zealous Jews] of those who are Jews change words from their context and say: "We hear and disobey; hear thou as one who heareth not" and "Listen to us!" [Ra'ina] distorting [twisting] with their tongues and slandering religion [alddeeni]. If they [Jews] had said: "We hear and we obey; hear thou, and look at us" it had been better for them, and more upright. But Allah hath cursed them [Jew infidels] for their disbelief, so they [Jews - infidels] believe not, save a few. [Ra'ina - pejorative]

5:13. And because of their [infidel Jews] breaking their covenant, We have cursed them [infidel Jews] and made hard their hearts. They [infidels] change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished*. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from ALL [Jews] save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly. [* cautioned, reproved, scolded, or reminded?]
4. The present Torah and injil has lots of difference with the present Quran.
This is very obvious when one compare the present Quran with the present Torah and Injil. Note for example, the concept of sonship, trinity and so much differences in the various Biblical stories between the Bible and those of the Quran.

5. Therefore the Torah and Injil has been corrupted since they were first revealed.What the Quran claimed is the original versions of the Torah and Quran were in line with Allah's words and is confirmed by the Quran.
But there are no original versions to compare with.
The solid evidence is to compare the present Torah and Injil with the present Quran and it so obvious there is so much differences between them.

Note:
It is only the Quran that claimed the Torah and Injil are corrupted [as defined above] i.e. changed, with omissions, and the likes.
In reality, the Torah and Injil are as original as they have been intended.
The reality is Muhammad or a group of people plagiarized from the Torah and Injil and worst added evil laden elements in the Quran where the overriding absolute moral maxim of killing is replaced with conditional killing and tons of 'hatreds' and contempt against non-Muslims for merely disbelieving Allah and his messenger.

Try countering my arguments above and give me a solid argument instead of merely waving off with loose references.
Again the Injil was not corrupted, it was not included in Christian Scripture. It did not make the cut when the Council of Nicea decided which books would be included in the Bible. (Possibly even earlier)
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Old 08-14-2016, 01:18 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Again the Injil was not corrupted, it was not included in Christian Scripture. It did not make the cut when the Council of Nicea decided which books would be included in the Bible. (Possibly even earlier)
I presume the Injil = Gospel.

Btw, I am not saying the "original" Injil as revealed by Allah to the prophets in accordance to Islam were corrupted.

What I am saying is the existing Gospels of the Christians are corrupted as claimed by the Quran. They were corrupted some time after it was revealed by Allah.

Here is the central truth of the Gospel according to Christians;
The central truth of the gospel is that God has provided a way of salvation for men through the gift of His son to the world. He suffered as a sacrifice for sin, overcame death, and now offers a share in His triumph to all who will accept it. The gospel is good news because it is a gift of God, not something that must be earned by penance or by self-improvement (Jn 3:16; Rom 5:8–11; II Cor 5:14–19; Tit 2:11–14).
The above are based on the existing Gospel held by Christians as present.

Note it is the Quran which condemned [in many verses] the Gospel as corrupted by the Christians who insist Jesus is the begotten son of Allah.

Since the central doctrine of Allah as in the original Quran do not recognized the concept of 'sonship' i.e. an unpardonable sin,
but the existing Gospels as evident contain the concept of 'sonship,'
then we can infer the existing Gospels must have been corrupted along the way.
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