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First of all, it is important to know that if the "Bibles" of today, with all their versions and differences in the quantity of their "books" and "gospels", were in fact the Original Holy Word of GOD Almighty, then there would be no need for the Noble Quran.
But since they are corrupt, then we obviously can't consider them as GOD Almighty's Holy and Divine Words.
The above article provides all the justifications how the Quran claimed the Bible is corrupted.
In the Quran, Allah claimed the original Torah, Gospels from Allah has been corrupted by believers over time.
As such the present Torah and Gospels are the corrupted versions and they should not be accepted as Islamic.
I. Allah's Quran cannot be changed.
50:29. The sentence [word, l-qawlu الْقَوْلُ ق و ل ] that cometh from Me [Allah] cannot be changed, and I am in no wise a tyrant unto the slaves. [immutability] [nb: different trans for l-qawlu]
17:77. (Such was Our) method in the case of those whom We sent before thee (to mankind), and thou wilt not find for Our method aught of power to change. 17
18:27. And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.
6:115. Perfected is the Word [Quran] of thy Lord in truth and justice. There is naught that can change His words [the Quran]. He [Allah] is the Hearer, the Knower. [immutability of Quran, its commands, threats and promises] [note v5:3, 6:114-5 v20:114]
33:62. That was the way of Allah in the case of those [proto Muslims] who passed away of old; thou wilt not find for the way of Allah aught of power to change. [from past decrees of Allah]
II. Where Jews and Christians Changed the Words of Allah
2:59. But those [Jews ] who did wrong changed the Word which had been told them for another saying, and We sent down upon the evil-doers wrath from Heaven for their evil doing. [re mentioned of 'Muhammad' in the Torah, note Songs of Solomon]
2:75. Have ye any hope that they [Jews] will be true to you when a party of them [Jews] used to listen to the Word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it knowingly?
2:211. Ask of the Children of Israel [Jews] how many a clear revelation We gave them! He [the Jew] who altereth [change] the grace of Allah after it hath come unto him [Jew] (for him), lo! Allah is severe in punishment.
3:71. O People of the Scripture! [Jews and Christians] Why confound ye [as infidels] truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the truth? [accused Jews of corruption of the scripture]
4:46. Some [ignorant zealous Jews] of those who are Jews change words from their context and say: "We hear and disobey; hear thou as one who heareth not" and "Listen to us!" [Ra'ina] distorting [twisting] with their tongues and slandering religion [alddeeni]. If they [Jews] had said: "We hear and we obey; hear thou, and look at us" it had been better for them, and more upright. But Allah hath cursed them [Jew infidels] for their disbelief, so they [Jews - infidels] believe not, save a few. [Ra'ina - pejorative]
5:13. And because of their [infidel Jews] breaking their covenant, We have cursed them [infidel Jews] and made hard their hearts. They [infidels] change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished*. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from ALL [Jews] save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly. [* cautioned, reproved, scolded, or reminded?]
In the above verses in list (II) Allah has condemned the Jews and Christians for changing the words of the respective original version of the Quran-of-old from Allah.
Other than 4:46 the alterations and changes by the Jews, Christians and others refer to general changes of the scriptures.
Because Allah did not specify which specific verses or message was changed there is no way to determine which verses of the Qurans-of-old has not been changed.
For example, take the Gospels:
Because Allah has condemned the Christians for changing the words of the original revelations, how can Muslims know which verses in the Injil [originally from Allah] are still valid and which verses are the corrupted ones?
Allah did not specify which verses are corrupted in the injil but condemned the Christians for changing the verses in general and thus it could be any verse of the Gospels.
Therefore it would be correct for Muslims to confirm the whole scripture of Torah and Gospels of the present [including any Qurans-of-old] had been corrupted and cannot be considered as Islamic.
The ONLY valid scripture for Muslims is the final, perfect, complete & immutable Quran [the sole words of Allah] and nothing else.
You are off point here. How can we verify that reality of what went before it? I stated you and Woodrow are not viewing reality as it is at the present where you only see "DUCK" only and not both Duck and Rabbit.
You see duck and rabbit only. That's why you can see no verse of the Qur'an saying about the corruption of the Torah text or corruption of Injil of Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
I read in the Wiki article re Gospel. What is critical in all these are the essential message, i.e. the promise of salvation to eternal life.
wiki is neither the Qur'an nor the Bible. That's why you get it wrong here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
That is what the NT stated and obviously that is critical but as I said, what is most critical is the promise of salvation to eternal life as the balm or relieve to the terror of the trembling.
The balm is sending someone else to die on the cross to bear your sins instead of accepting your own responsibility. Very nice way of "the promised salvation"! It could easily have been on the first day, could it not? That would have been proper balm for the mankind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
Obviously I am sure of my argument.
What I meant is the critical point to the issue in that case, i.e. the concept of sonship. The Quran claimed the Christians altered and included the concept of sonship in their texts which is not acceptable to Islam. That is the main contention.
Obviously you are neither sure nor right about your argument. You are completely lost.
The Qur'an does not claim that the Christians altered and included the concept of sonship in their text.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
Note,
2:116 And they say: Allah hath taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth is His. All are subservient unto Him.
What they say with their mouths is not the text.
Quote:
9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
Not text.
Quote:
10:68 They say: Allah hath taken (unto Him) a son - Glorified be He! He hath no needs! His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. Ye have no warrant for this. Tell ye concerning Allah that which ye know not?
They say without warrant. No text.
Quote:
18:4 And to warn those who say: Allah hath chosen a son,
Still no corruption of the text.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
Allah has not taken any son.
17:111 And say: Praise be to Allah, Who hath not taken unto Himself a son, and Who hath no partner in the Sovereignty, nor hath He any protecting friend through dependence. And magnify Him with all magnificence.
Note the above verses [there are others] where Allah condemned the concept of 'sonship' adopted by the Jews and Christians.
This is so pathetic of you to regard it corruption of Torah and Gospels text. Clearly, what you claimed here had no warrant for it in the Qur'an about the Torah and Gospels text.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
That is correct, in reality the NT never claimed Jesus as the birth son of God.
Then the Qur'an is correct; God had no son. Jesus never claimed to be God's Son.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
It is the Quran which stupidly claimed in the above verses that 'sonship' refer to son by birth.
The Qur'an is saying that "they say". Jesus did not say so but 1 John said so. The Qur'an is not being stupid but you are being stupid about the Qur'an.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
Note the verses I quote where Allah in the Quran condemned the Jews and Christians re the 'sonship' of Jesus.
Note the verses do not say that this is in the text of the Torah and Gospels. Therefore your claim about what the Qur'an claimed is stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
The OP is merely a title and I explained whatever is the intended meaning in my various posts.
We know quite well what your "intended meaning" was when you wrote, "Qur'an Claimed Present Torah, Gospels are Corrupted".
Finally,
[2.41] And believe in what I have revealed, confirming that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My messages; and Me, Me alone should you fear.
It is now safe to say that the Qur'an 2:41 debunks your argument about what the Qur'an claimed.
You see duck and rabbit only. That's why you can see no verse of the Qur'an saying about the corruption of the Torah text or corruption of Injil of Jesus.
Note I have defined what is meant by "corruption" in this case and have highlighted in many times.
Therefrom I have listed the relevant verses to support my point the Quran [due to low self esteem] condemned the Jews and Christians as having altered and omitted verses from the original revelations from Allah, thus 'corruption' to the original. The proofs of the Quran's claim is evident from a comparison of the present Quran with the persent Torah and Gospel.
Quote:
wiki is neither the Qur'an nor the Bible. That's why you get it wrong here.
It is not a universal understanding, Wiki is merely a crude quick reference but never an authority on any knowledge.
If you don't agree, then present an authorized definition of what is the Gospel which both can rely upon for our argument.
Quote:
The balm is sending someone else to die on the cross to bear your sins instead of accepting your own responsibility. Very nice way of "the promised salvation"! It could easily have been on the first day, could it not? That would have been proper balm for the mankind.
You are talking nonsense here. Personally I viewed the Jesus story merely as a myth to deal with an inherent unavoidable psychological angst, terrible mental pains. The central point of the Gospel is the promised of salvation in exchange for worshipping God in accordance to the terms and conditions in the NT.
Whatever criticisms you throw at the NT, it net positive point is the NT do not influence any evil prone Christians to kill non-Christians like SOME evil prone Muslims who are influenced by the evil laden elements from the Quran and the story of Muhammad's violent ethos.
Quote:
The Qur'an does not claim that the Christians altered and included the concept of sonship in their text.
What they say with their mouths is not the text.
Not text.
They say without warrant. No text.
Still no corruption of the text.
This is so pathetic of you to regard it corruption of Torah and Gospels text. Clearly, what you claimed here had no warrant for it in the Qur'an about the Torah and Gospels text.
I did not expect you to that ignorant of the Quran.
In addition to the above verses on sonship, note these verses;
"Know they not Allah Knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:77-79)"
"O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment. (The Noble Quran, 5:41)"
If the above do not signify 'corruption' i.e. change, alteration, then what is it.
Note there are many other verses that support the Quran claimed the Torah and Injil were corrupted by the Jews and Christians respectively.
Quote:
Then the Qur'an is correct; God had no son. Jesus never claimed to be God's Son.
The Quran is ignorant and wrong!
The people [of Allah] who authored/wrote the Quran did not understand the concept of sonship in the Gospel.
They [Quran] read John 3:16 and interpreted 'begotten' literally and their condemnation is included in the Quran.
The Quran [or its author] are so desperate to feel superior that they resorted to a straw man to condemn the Christians.
Quote:
The Qur'an is saying that "they say". Jesus did not say so but 1 John said so. The Qur'an is not being stupid but you are being stupid about the Qur'an.
That is my point as above.
The authors of the Quran are ignorant and has low self-esteem, so they condemned John 3:16 literally without understanding the real meaning.
Quote:
Note the verses do not say that this is in the text of the Torah and Gospels. Therefore your claim about what the Qur'an claimed is stupid.
The verses I included earlier were about the concept of sonship. Even then such verses implied they refer to the text of the Torah and Gospels.
Note the verses that mentioned changes to the texts I listed above.
The point is you do not understand the overall context the corruption [texts] charge of the Torah and Gospel is because you have only read the Quran 6-7 times and thus missed this finer point.
Finally,
[2.41] And believe in what I have revealed, confirming that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My messages; and Me, Me alone should you fear.
It is now safe to say that the Qur'an 2:41 debunks your argument about what the Qur'an claimed.[/quote]The above is merely a theory and principle but not in practice.
It is true what was originally revealed to Muhammad was to confirm what was originally revealed to the prior prophets on the conditions the older original were not changed [corrupted] at all.
The reality is the original revelations to the prophets prior to Muhammad had been changed over time as claimed by the Quran.
The solid proof is evidenced by comparing the present Quran with the present Torah and Gospel. No Muslims at present will rely on the Quran with the present Torah and Gospel to affirm their covenant with Allah. No clergy would officially use the present Torah and Bible in a mosque.
Note I have defined what is meant by "corruption" in this case and have highlighted in many times.
Therefrom I have listed the relevant verses to support my point the Quran [due to low self esteem] condemned the Jews and Christians as having altered and omitted verses from the original revelations from Allah, thus 'corruption' to the original.
You keep looking for another straw to hang on to in this thread. There isn't one for you to hang on to.
The fact of the matter is that you made a mistake of not understanding the Qur'an and started this thread in ignorance about the Qur'an. Read your above statement. It clearly means corruption of the TEXT of Torah and Gospels. The Qur'an does not claim that Jews and Christians "altered and omitted verses" from their original scriptures.
You had also claimed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
The Quran claimed the Christians altered and included the concept of sonship in their texts which is not acceptable to Islam.
Your claim about the Qur'an claiming present Torah and Gospels are corrupted is clearly about the TEXT of the Torah and Gospels. No such claim is made by the Qur'an about the TEXT of the Torah and the Gospels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
The proofs of the Quran's claim is evident from a comparison of the present Quran with the persent Torah and Gospel.
Looking for another straw?
The proof of the Qur'an's claim can be only in the Qur'an. You have not quoted even one verse of the Qur'an that says that the Torah and the Gospels texts were corrupted by the Jews and Christians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
In addition to the above verses on sonship, note these verses;
[indent]"Know they not Allah Knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:77-79)"[indent]
These verses (2:77-79) do not say that the Jews and Christians corrupted the text of the Torah and the Gospels. You are only imagining it in your ignorance. The reference is to the writings of their own hands (Not the Torah) that they were presenting to the illiterate ones, saying that it is from God when it was not from God. This is not a reference to Torah as the Torah in their hands when the Qur'an was revealed is confirmed by the Qur'an. This is why I am telling you to understand the Qur'an instead of reading it fast.
Read this verse about the Torah:
[3.93] All food was lawful to the children of Israel except that which Israel had forbidden to himself, before the Torah was revealed. Say: Bring then the Torah and read it, if you are truthful.
Why should the Qur'an challenge them to bring the Torah to sort out this issue if the Qur'an had condemned the Torah text as having been corrupted by the Jews?
Clearly the Torah in their hands, during the revelation of the Qur'an, was still valid and the text not corrupted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
"O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment. (The Noble Quran, 5:41)"
If the above do not signify 'corruption' i.e. change, alteration, then what is it.
This verse of the Qur'an is not about the words of the Torah or the Gospels but the words of the Qur'an that were being changed by hypocrites and Jews, and being given to others as the words to take. Obviously you missed the whole point of this verse in haste to read it too fast.
If you had studied the Qur'an properly, you would have found the verse below very close-by telling you something about still valid Torah in their hands:
[5.43] And how do they make you a judge and they have the Torah wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
Note there are many other verses that support the Quran claimed the Torah and Injil were corrupted by the Jews and Christians respectively.
You have more verses? WOW!
Good!
Quote them so that I can see how poor your understanding of the Qur'an is!
[quote=Khalif;45155021]You keep looking for another straw to hang on to in this thread. There isn't one for you to hang on to.
The fact of the matter is that you made a mistake of not understanding the Qur'an and started this thread in ignorance about the Qur'an. Read your above statement. It clearly means corruption of the TEXT of Torah and Gospels. The Qur'an does not claim that Jews and Christians "altered and omitted verses" from their original scriptures.
You had also claimed:
Your claim about the Qur'an claiming present Torah and Gospels are corrupted is clearly about the TEXT of the Torah and Gospels. No such claim is made by the Qur'an about the TEXT of the Torah and the Gospels.
Looking for another straw?
The proof of the Qur'an's claim can be only in the Qur'an. You have not quoted even one verse of the Qur'an that says that the Torah and the Gospels texts were corrupted by the Jews and Christians.[quote]There are many verses where it is indicated and/or implied in the Quran the Jews corrupted [altered and omitted] the Torah.
Besides 2:77-79 here is another'
6:91. And they [infidels] measure not [underestimate] the power of Allah its true measure when they [infidels] say: Allah hath naught [never] revealed [anything, revelation] unto a human being.
Say [O Muhammad] (unto the Jews who speak thus): Who revealed the Book
which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind,
which ye [Jews] have put [transcribe] on parchments which ye show,
but ye [Jews] hide much (thereof), and
by which ye were taught that which ye knew not yourselves nor (did) your fathers (know it)?
Say [Muhammad]: Allah. Then leave them [Jews] to their play of cavilling.
Here is my point again;
1. The original revelations were revealed to the prophets. 2. The Jews hide, altered the sayings. [per supporting verses]
3. When it was put into texts, we have the original and the corrupted copies within various groups.
4. What we have at present are different and do not agree with the Quran central message. 5. No original version are available at present.
What we have in reality and can be proven are the present Torah and holy texts that are not in agreement with the Quran.
This prove the Torah [& Injil] of the present is the corrupted version.
Quote:
These verses (2:77-79) do not say that the Jews and Christians corrupted the text of the Torah and the Gospels. You are only imagining it in your ignorance. The reference is to the writings of their own hands (Not the Torah) that they were presenting to the illiterate ones, saying that it is from God when it was not from God. This is not a reference to Torah as the Torah in their hands when the Qur'an was revealed is confirmed by the Qur'an. This is why I am telling you to understand the Qur'an instead of reading it fast.
What imaginings?
The people knew there was the Torah handed down by God but they do not know the details.
Some Jews presented the altered versions and claimed it is the original Torah.
This changed version later became the standard versions of the Torah.
The present Torah is the corrupted version.
Therefore the Jews had corrupted the Torah as claimed in the Quran and this is proven because the present copy of the Torah is do not agree with the central message of the Quran.
Quote:
Read this verse about the Torah:
[3.93] All food was lawful to the children of Israel except that which Israel had forbidden to himself, before the Torah was revealed. Say: Bring then the Torah and read it, if you are truthful.
Why should the Qur'an challenge them to bring the Torah to sort out this issue if the Qur'an had condemned the Torah text as having been corrupted by the Jews?
Clearly the Torah in their hands, during the revelation of the Qur'an, was still valid and the text not corrupted.
Note there was a long period between when the Torah was first revealed till the days of Muhammad. It could be many thousand years. During that period that would be many versions of the Torah as there are many version of the Quran.
In addition, not the whole Torah was corrupted, there are certain verses which are acceptable to Muhammad.
When Muhammad referred to the Torah as in 3.93 he was referring the acceptable verses in the Torah but this do not prove that there are many other verses has been corrupted and there are versions of the corrupted Torah as claimed by the Quran. [note the supporting verses].
I am aware and I have mentioned there are two references to the Torah in the Quran, i.e. the original version & verses and the corrupted version & verses depending on the context of the verse. Note 'context'.
Quote:
This verse of the Qur'an is not about the words of the Torah or the Gospels but the words of the Qur'an that were being changed by hypocrites and Jews, and being given to others as the words to take. Obviously you missed the whole point of this verse in haste to read it too fast.
Re 5:41. This is part of the process of the changes and later incorporating into the texts by various groups and eventually ending up within the standardized versions over time.
Quote:
If you had studied the Qur'an properly, you would have found the verse below very close-by telling you something about still valid Torah in their hands:
[5.43] And how do they make you a judge and they have the Torah wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.
5:43. How come they [Jews] unto thee [Muhammad] for judgment when they [Jews] have the [original uncorrupted] Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)?
Yet even after that they [Jews] turn away. Such (folk) are not-believers [infidels].
If you understand the context as I have mentioned this Torah refer to the original corrupted version from Allah.
In the above case, we do not know the real context of the above 'judgment' which may not be theologically related.
Quote:
You have more verses? WOW!
Good!
Quote them so that I can see how poor your understanding of the Qur'an is!
I suggest you do not underestimate my understanding of the Quran in its full context and taking into the whole of reality and human nature.
Here is one that imply corruption of the scripture.
27:76. Lo! this Qur’an narrateth unto the Children of Israel most of that concerning which they differ.
"which the differ" imply the current one is corrupted from the original, thus differ.
There are many others which I am not going into because it is obvious if you have understood the Quran thoroughly and not be blinded by the default biasness.
2:59. But those [Jews] who did wrong changed the Word which had been told them for another saying, and We sent down upon the evil-doers wrath from Heaven for their evil doing.
You keep looking for another straw to hang on to in this thread. There isn't one for you to hang on to.
The fact of the matter is that you made a mistake of not understanding the Qur'an and started this thread in ignorance about the Qur'an. Read your above statement. It clearly means corruption of the TEXT of Torah and Gospels. The Qur'an does not claim that Jews and Christians "altered and omitted verses" from their original scriptures.
You had also claimed:
Your claim about the Qur'an claiming present Torah and Gospels are corrupted is clearly about the TEXT of the Torah and Gospels. No such claim is made by the Qur'an about the TEXT of the Torah and the Gospels.
Looking for another straw?
The proof of the Qur'an's claim can be only in the Qur'an. You have not quoted even one verse of the Qur'an that says that the Torah and the Gospels texts were corrupted by the Jews and Christians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
There are many verses where it is indicated and/or implied in the Quran the Jews corrupted [altered and omitted] the Torah.
Besides 2:77-79 here is another'
6:91. And they [infidels] measure not [underestimate] the power of Allah its true measure when they [infidels] say: Allah hath naught [never] revealed [anything, revelation] unto a human being.
Say [O Muhammad] (unto the Jews who speak thus): Who revealed the Book
which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind,
which ye [Jews] have put [transcribe] on parchments which ye show,
but ye [Jews] hide much (thereof), and
by which ye were taught that which ye knew not yourselves nor (did) your fathers (know it)?
Say [Muhammad]: Allah. Then leave them [Jews] to their play of cavilling.
[6.91] And they do not assign to Allah the attributes due to Him when they say: Allah has not revealed anything to a mortal. Say: Who revealed the Book which Moses brought, a light and a guidance to men, which you make into scattered writings which you show while you conceal much? And you were taught what you did not know, you nor your fathers. Say: Allah then leave them sporting in their vain discourses.
[6.92] And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed, confirming that which is before it, and that you may warn the metropolis and those around her; and those who believe in the hereafter believe in it, and they attend to their prayers constantly.
The verse 6:91 is not saying that the Jews corrupted the Torah text but that they have it in more than one book as separate writings (Exodus, Deuteronomy etc) and it was not accessible to everyone because the priest were not letting everyone know everything in it. They were even claiming about Muhammad that no mortal can have any revelation from Allah despite Moses having such a revelation from Allah.
The point of the verse is not that they corrupted the text but that they were not showing everything that was in the text with them. You do not understand this because you read the Qur'an too fast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
Here is my point again;
1. The original revelations were revealed to the prophets.
Revelation of Torah was to Moses and revelation of Injil was to Jesus. They were both the prophets and messengers of Allah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
2. The Jews hide, altered the sayings. [per supporting verses]
The Jews did hide the written Torah from people and were showing only part of it to all others but that is not saying that they altered the text of the written Torah.
The reference to altering the words from their places is not about the words of Torah but of the Qur'an. They were saying to people, if you are given this, take it or else be careful. This was to mislead people from the Qur'an. No Jew will deliberately lead people away from the Torah by altering the words of the Torah.
You must try to understand the Qur'an better instead of making false claims about the Qur'an.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
3. When it was put into texts, we have the original and the corrupted copies within various groups.
The Qur'an does not claim so; you claim so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
4. What we have at present are different and do not agree with the Quran central message.
Worshiping One God by obeying Him is the central message of the Torah, Injil, Gospels, and the Qur'an. This cannot be denied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
5. No original version are available at present.
The Qur'an does not claim so. Also, not having the original means the original does not exist. But the Qur'an does confirm the Torah with them to be valid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
What we have in reality and can be proven are the present Torah and holy texts that are not in agreement with the Quran.
Present Torah does not have to be in agreement with the Qur'an in everything as the Torah was for only the Israelites coming from Egypt with Moses and the Qur'an is for the whole mankind. But the central message of obeying Allah/Gd/God is exactly the same in the Qur'an as in the Torah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
This prove the Torah [& Injil] of the present is the corrupted version.
This proves that the Qur'an does not claim that the text of present Torah, Gospels are corrupted but only you claim so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
The people knew there was the Torah handed down by God but they do not know the details.
Some Jews presented the altered versions and claimed it is the original Torah.
This changed version later became the standard versions of the Torah.
The present Torah is the corrupted version.
Therefore the Jews had corrupted the Torah as claimed in the Quran and this is proven because the present copy of the Torah is do not agree with the central message of the Quran.
Why are you blaming the Qur'an and the Jews when neither the Qur'an nor the Jews claim that the text of the Torah is corrupted? You keep looking for a straw to hang on to but you are not going to find anything to hang on to. You have been caught talking nonsense whilst napping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
Note there was a long period between when the Torah was first revealed till the days of Muhammad. It could be many thousand years. During that period that would be many versions of the Torah as there are many version of the Quran.
If your corruption of the Torah text claim is based of this idea of yours then just say so. Your OP claim against the Qur'an is not based on this point of time between the Torah and the Qur'an.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
In addition, not the whole Torah was corrupted, there are certain verses which are acceptable to Muhammad.
So which verses of the present Torah you think the Qur'an claims to be corrupted?
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Originally Posted by Continuum
When Muhammad referred to the Torah as in 3.93 he was referring the acceptable verses in the Torah but this do not prove that there are many other verses has been corrupted and there are versions of the corrupted Torah as claimed by the Quran. [note the supporting verses].
Allah would not have guided Muhammad to say to Jews to bring the Torah if that Torah text had been corrupted. This goes to prove that you haven't understood the Qur'an.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
I am aware and I have mentioned there are two references to the Torah in the Quran, i.e. the original version & verses and the corrupted version & verses depending on the context of the verse. Note 'context'.
Please explain, by quoting the verses, where in the Qur'an it says that there are two versions of the Torah.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
Re 5:41. This is part of the process of the changes and later incorporating into the texts by various groups and eventually ending up within the standardized versions over time.
[5.41] O Apostle! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths: We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.
This is about them altering the ongoing revealed words of the Qur'an at the time. This altering the words is not about the Torah with them. In other words, you must stop imagining that the Jews in Madina (where this verse of the Qur'an was revealed) were altering the text of the Torah with them. It will make you look stupid if you claim that the Jews were altering the text of the Torah with them in Madina.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
5:43. How come they [Jews] unto thee [Muhammad] for judgment when they [Jews] have the [original uncorrupted] Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)?
Yet even after that they [Jews] turn away. Such (folk) are not-believers [infidels].
If you understand the context as I have mentioned this Torah refer to the original corrupted version from Allah.
In the above case, we do not know the real context of the above 'judgment' which may not be theologically related.
You are clearly exposing your ignorance about the Qur'an and these verses of the Qur'an. You do not know the context but I do. The point to note here is that the Jews had the original uncorrupted Torah with them in Madina at the time. This destroys your claim against the Qur'an.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
I suggest you do not underestimate my understanding of the Quran in its full context and taking into the whole of reality and human nature.
Here is one that imply corruption of the scripture.
27:76. Lo! this Qur’an narrateth unto the Children of Israel most of that concerning which they differ.
"which the differ" imply the current one is corrupted from the original, thus differ.
You are reading too much into it. It is not saying that they corrupted the text of the Torah but saying that they understood the Torah differently. Jesus had come to tell them how to understand the Torah about which they had different "views".
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Originally Posted by Continuum
There are many others which I am not going into because it is obvious if you have understood the Quran thoroughly and not be blinded by the default biasness.
You are running out of options, aren't you?
Problem with you is that you think you understand the Qur'an but you do not. It is too deep for a close mind towards it to understand it. You have to open your mind towards it then, and only then, you would be mindful.
[38.29] (It is) a Book We have revealed to you abounding in good that they may ponder over its verses, and that those endowed with understanding may be mindful.
[89.23] And hell is made to appear on that day. On that day shall man be mindful, and what shall being mindful (then) avail him?
2:59. But those [Jews] who did wrong changed the Word which had been told them for another saying, and We sent down upon the evil-doers wrath from Heaven for their evil doing.
Once again, you haven't understood the Qur'an. The "Word" is not in the verse.
I quote the context:
[2.57] And We made the clouds to give shade over you and We sent to you manna and quails: Eat of the good things that We have given you; and they did not do Us any harm, but they made their own souls suffer the loss.
[2.58] And when We said: Enter this city, then eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish, and enter the gate making obeisance, and say, forgiveness. We will forgive you your wrongs and give more to those who do good (to others).
[2.59] But those who were unjust changed it for a saying other than that which had been spoken to them, so We sent upon those who were unjust a pestilence from heaven, because they transgressed.
As you can see, the context is not about changing words of the Torah text but what they were told about going into the city after coming from Egypt with Moses.
[6.91] And they do not assign to Allah the attributes due to Him when they say: Allah has not revealed anything to a mortal. Say: Who revealed the Book which Moses brought, a light and a guidance to men, which you make into scattered writings which you show while you conceal much? And you were taught what you did not know, you nor your fathers. Say: Allah then leave them sporting in their vain discourses.
[6.92] And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed, confirming that which is before it, and that you may warn the metropolis and those around her; and those who believe in the hereafter believe in it, and they attend to their prayers constantly.
The verse 6:91 is not saying that the Jews corrupted the Torah text but that they have it in more than one book as separate writings (Exodus, Deuteronomy etc) and it was not accessible to everyone because the priest were not letting everyone know everything in it. They were even claiming about Muhammad that no mortal can have any revelation from Allah despite Moses having such a revelation from Allah.
The point of the verse is not that they corrupted the text but that they were not showing everything that was in the text with them. You do not understand this because you read the Qur'an too fast.
I agree hiding without real changes is not corruption per-se, but it is a part of the conspiracy of the corruption in this case. Whatever is to be hidden is likely to be omitted by the next few changes in time.
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The Jews did hide the written Torah from people and were showing only part of it to all others but that is not saying that they altered the text of the written Torah.
The reference to altering the words from their places is not about the words of Torah but of the Qur'an. They were saying to people, if you are given this, take it or else be careful. This was to mislead people from the Qur'an. No Jew will deliberately lead people away from the Torah by altering the words of the Torah.
Are you sure 'No Jew will deliberately lead people away from the Torah by altering the words of the Torah'?
Point is you do not understand human nature where there is a range of people from extreme to another.
What do you mean by 'not about the words of Torah but of the Qur'an'.
There were no Muhammad's Quran before his time, the the Quran of old are the Torah and Injil.
Note again where the Quran accused the Jews and Christians of corruption of their respective holy texts;
2:59. But those [Jews ] who did wrong changed the Word which had been told them for another saying, and We sent down upon the evil-doers wrath from Heaven for their evil doing. [re mentioned of 'Muhammad' in the Torah, note Songs of Solomon]
2:75. Have ye any hope that they [Jews] will be true to you when a party of them [Jews] used to listen to the Word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it knowingly?
2:211. Ask of the Children of Israel [Jews] how many a clear revelation We gave them! He [the Jew] who altereth [change] the grace of Allah after it hath come unto him [Jew] (for him), lo! Allah is severe in punishment.
3:71. O People of the Scripture! [Jews and Christians] Why confound ye [as infidels] truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the truth? [accused Jews of corruption of the scripture]
4:46. Some [ignorant zealous Jews] of those who are Jews change words from their context and say: "We hear and disobey; hear thou as one who heareth not" and "Listen to us!" [Ra'ina] distorting [twisting] with their tongues and slandering religion [alddeeni]. If they [Jews] had said: "We hear and we obey; hear thou, and look at us" it had been better for them, and more upright. But Allah hath cursed them [Jew infidels] for their disbelief, so they [Jews - infidels] believe not, save a few. [Ra'ina - pejorative]
5:13. And because of their [infidel Jews] breaking their covenant, We have cursed them [infidel Jews] and made hard their hearts. They [infidels] change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished*. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from ALL [Jews] save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly. [* cautioned, reproved, scolded, or reminded?
I have repeated from the OP before and I hope you get it this time.
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The Qur'an does not claim so; you claim so.
The point is I have presented my claim within the context with supporting verses. On the other hand yours is merely denial.
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Worshiping One God by obeying Him is the central message of the Torah, Injil, Gospels, and the Qur'an. This cannot be denied.
Agree monotheism is central but for the Christians the concept of 'sonship' is also central which is rejected by the Quran as an unpardonable sin.
In addition, the Quran [wrongly] claimed the Torah and Injil were corrupted from its narrow perspective since both the present Torah and Injil are significantly different from the present Quran.
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The Qur'an does not claim so. Also, not having the original means the original does not exist. But the Qur'an does confirm the Torah with them to be valid.
If is a fact the original version from the respective prophets are not available at present.
The Quran only confirm the original Torah to be valid in theory because both are supposed to be revealed by Allah, therefore the Torah must be valid.
The point is there is no original Torah available and the present Torah differs drastically from the Quran, then it is inferred that the present Torah is corrupted as claimed by the Quran.
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Present Torah does not have to be in agreement with the Qur'an in everything as the Torah was for only the Israelites coming from Egypt with Moses and the Qur'an is for the whole mankind. But the central message of obeying Allah/Gd/God is exactly the same in the Qur'an as in the Torah.
Are you sure the Quran is for whole of mankind.
The point is Allah did refer to the whole of mankind in general, but the Quran was specifically revealed in Arabic for the Qureshi and Arabs within the neighborhood.
By the way, the central message of the main hindu religions are also based on monotheism. What is that Muslims will not have copies of the Hindu texts, the Bible [OT & NT] in their mosques, religious institutions and in the hands of most Muslims?
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This proves that the Qur'an does not claim that the text of present Torah, Gospels are corrupted but only you claim so.
Note my supporting points and the main verses I have posted which you have not refuted.
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Why are you blaming the Qur'an and the Jews when neither the Qur'an nor the Jews claim that the text of the Torah is corrupted? You keep looking for a straw to hang on to but you are not going to find anything to hang on to. You have been caught talking nonsense whilst napping.
Obviously the present Jews will never claim their Torah is corrupted.
It is the very arrogant that claimed the Torah and Injil are corrupted to feel superior and this is due to its low self-esteem.
Note the verses I quoted [few times already] to support my points.
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If your corruption of the Torah text claim is based of this idea of yours then just say so. Your OP claim against the Qur'an is not based on this point of time between the Torah and the Qur'an.
That is the problem when all your focus is on denying whatever it takes. It is obvious I meant the corruption that occur after the Torah appeared till the Quran.
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So which verses of the present Torah you think the Qur'an claims to be corrupted?
Allah would not have guided Muhammad to say to Jews to bring the Torah if that Torah text had been corrupted. This goes to prove that you haven't understood the Qur'an.
In that specific case, the reference was to the uncorrupted verses in the Torah.
[quote]Please explain, by quoting the verses, where in the Qur'an it says that there are two versions of the Torah.I did not say the Quran stated there are two versions of the Torah.
Rather I stated where the Torah is mentioned, there are two contexts, i.e. the original Torah and the corrupted Torah.
Here is reference to the uncorrupted Scriptures;
1
0:94. And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those [Jews & Christians, Muslims-of-old] who read the Scripture (that was) [uncorrupted original] before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
6:20. Those [some Jews] unto whom We gave the [original uncorrupted] Scripture recognize (this Revelation) as they recognize their sons. Those [infidels] who ruin their own souls will not believe.
Here the Scriptures are the corrupted ones;
3:100. O ye [Muslims] who believe! If ye [Muslims] obey a party of those [Christians - infidels] who have received the Scripture [corrupted version] they [infidels] will make you disbelievers [kuffar] after your belief.
The above verses demonstrate that Allah was referring to two versions of the scriptures, i.e. the original uncorrupted version and the later corrupted versions. Thus one must be very mindful of the relevant contexts when reading those verses.
Btw, the above are merely a sample of the many related verses from the Quran.
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