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Old 08-18-2016, 02:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I agree hiding without real changes is not corruption per-se, but it is a part of the conspiracy of the corruption in this case. Whatever is to be hidden is likely to be omitted by the next few changes in time.
No. Even that is mere mental gymnastic.

I am confident that the Jews did not corrupt the text of the Torah. What SOME of them may have done is understand it wrongly and thus acted against its true teachings. The only thing that makes no sense in the Torah is possibly one word "Isaac" as "the only son" of Abraham. But even this is not claimed by the Qur'an as corruption of the text of the Torah.

Quote:
Are you sure 'No Jew will deliberately lead people away from the Torah by altering the words of the Torah'?
No Jew will do it because they have been commanded clearly not to do so.

The only way a Jew can go against the teachings of the Torah is if he misinterprets it first. I have read so called 5 books of Moses but, just as hadith books are additions and not from Allah, Talmud is not from Allah. I understand that Talmud rather than the Torah is the most important book for the Jewish people. I may be wrong here because I haven't read the Talmud but that is the impression I get.
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Old 08-18-2016, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,594,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No. Even that is mere mental gymnastic.

I am confident that the Jews did not corrupt the text of the Torah. What SOME of them may have done is understand it wrongly and thus acted against its true teachings. The only thing that makes no sense in the Torah is possibly one word "Isaac" as "the only son" of Abraham. But even this is not claimed by the Qur'an as corruption of the text of the Torah.
Note let me repeat the following verses from the Quran AGAIN,
2:59. But those [Jews ] who did wrong changed the Word which had been told them for another saying, and We sent down upon the evil-doers wrath from Heaven for their evil doing. [re mentioned of 'Muhammad' in the Torah, note Songs of Solomon]

2:75. Have ye any hope that they [Jews] will be true to you when a party of them [Jews] used to listen to the Word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it knowingly?

2:211. Ask of the Children of Israel [Jews] how many a clear revelation We gave them! He [the Jew] who altereth [change] the grace of Allah after it hath come unto him [Jew] (for him), lo! Allah is severe in punishment.

3:71. O People of the Scripture! [Jews and Christians] Why confound ye [as infidels] truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the truth? [accused Jews of corruption of the scripture]

4:46. Some [ignorant zealous Jews] of those who are Jews change words from their context and say: "We hear and disobey; hear thou as one who heareth not" and "Listen to us!" [Ra'ina] distorting [twisting] with their tongues and slandering religion [alddeeni]. If they [Jews] had said: "We hear and we obey; hear thou, and look at us" it had been better for them, and more upright. But Allah hath cursed them [Jew infidels] for their disbelief, so they [Jews - infidels] believe not, save a few. [Ra'ina - pejorative]

5:13. And because of their [infidel Jews] breaking their covenant, We have cursed them [infidel Jews] and made hard their hearts. They [infidels] change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished*. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from ALL [Jews] save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly. [* cautioned, reproved, scolded, or reminded?
It is clear the Quran condemned the Jews are altering and changing the words of Allah.
READ AGAIN what the verses [above] from the Quran are stating.
I can understand why as a believer you MUST be blind, but I am asking you to wake up and face reality.

The ultimate proofs is the present Torah is not accepted by Muslims because it differ from the present Quran.

Quote:
No Jew will do it because they have been commanded clearly not to do so.
From the Jews' perspective, it is obvious they will claim their Torah was never corrupted. The Jews will insist the Quran is wrong in claiming the Torah is corrupted since it first was revealed to the present.

The Quran in the various sample of verses above do claim the Torah is corrupted since the time the original pure version was first revealed.

Another point is the Quran implied all scriptures prior to the one revealed to Muhammad were corrupted [differed] and Allah had punished those who differed from the original version as evidenced by the leftover destruction and ruins. The Quran claim the final revelations to Muhammad is the complete and perfect versions that confirm the older versions [wherever they are if existed].

Quote:
The only way a Jew can go against the teachings of the Torah is if he misinterprets it first. I have read so called 5 books of Moses but, just as hadith books are additions and not from Allah, Talmud is not from Allah. I understand that Talmud rather than the Torah is the most important book for the Jewish people. I may be wrong here because I haven't read the Talmud but that is the impression I get.
The Quran referred to the Torah and not the Talmud.
It is Allah who made the claim and as a Muslim you have to take Allah's words for it else you would have sinned in doubting Allah's words.

Btw, it is only the Quran [& Muslims] than claimed the Torah and Injil are corrupted. This is due to low self-esteem and thus such childish put-downs [note Trump's habit].
Obviously the present Jews and Christians do not claim the Torah and Injil respectively were ever corrupted.
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Old 08-20-2016, 06:59 PM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,047,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note let me repeat the following verses from the Quran AGAIN,
2:59. But those [Jews ] who did wrong changed the Word which had been told them for another saying, and We sent down upon the evil-doers wrath from Heaven for their evil doing. [re mentioned of 'Muhammad' in the Torah, note Songs of Solomon]

[2.58] And when We said: Enter this city, then eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish, and enter the gate making obeisance, and say, forgiveness. We will forgive you your wrongs and give more to those who do good (to others).

[2.59] But those who were unjust changed it for a saying other than that which had been spoken to them, so We sent upon those who were unjust a pestilence from heaven, because they transgressed.
You are deliberately twisting what is said in the verse 2:58 as "mention of 'Muhammad' in the Torah". The "word" is made clear in the verse. No need to add your own twisted understanding.

Quote:
[indent]2:75. Have ye any hope that they [Jews] will be true to you when a party of them [Jews] used to listen to the Word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it knowingly?
[2.75] Do you then hope that they would believe in you, and a party from among them indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this).

[2.76] And when they meet those who believe they say: We believe, and when they are alone one with another they say: Do you talk to them of what Allah has disclosed to you that they may contend with you by this before your Lord? Do you not then understand?


The "party from among them" means among those present who used to hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an) and change it.

[5.41] O Apostle! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths: We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.

Nothing to do with the Qur'an claiming that that the Torah, Gospels are corrupted!

Quote:
2:211. Ask of the Children of Israel [Jews] how many a clear revelation We gave them! He [the Jew] who altereth [change] the grace of Allah after it hath come unto him [Jew] (for him), lo! Allah is severe in punishment.
Is this your proof of the Qur'an claiming that the Torah, Gospels are corrupted? LOL!

Quote:
3:71. O People of the Scripture! [Jews and Christians] Why confound ye [as infidels] truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the truth? [accused Jews of corruption of the scripture]
As infidels corrupted their scriptures?

Once again, concealing the truth is not corrupting the Torah but not telling the truth.

Quote:
4:46. Some [ignorant zealous Jews] of those who are Jews change words from their context and say: "We hear and disobey; hear thou as one who heareth not" and "Listen to us!" [Ra'ina] distorting [twisting] with their tongues and slandering religion [alddeeni]. If they [Jews] had said: "We hear and we obey; hear thou, and look at us" it had been better for them, and more upright. But Allah hath cursed them [Jew infidels] for their disbelief, so they [Jews - infidels] believe not, save a few. [Ra'ina - pejorative]
Nothing to do with the Qur'an claiming the Torah text has been corrupted. The accusation is of them changing the words of the Qur'an from their context, just as you are doing here.

Quote:
5:13. And because of their [infidel Jews] breaking their covenant, We have cursed them [infidel Jews] and made hard their hearts. They [infidels] change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished*. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from ALL [Jews] save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly. [* cautioned, reproved, scolded, or reminded?
[b][5.12] And certainly Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel, and We raised up among them twelve chieftains; and Allah said: Surely I am with you; if you keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and believe in My apostles and asslst them and offer to Allah a goodly gift, I will most certainly cover your evil deeds, and I will most certainly cause you to enter into gardens beneath which rivers flow, but whoever disbelieves from among you after that, he indeed shall lose the right way.

[5.13] But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).

Once again, this is nothing to do with corruption of the Torah but them breaking the Covenant. Changing the words from their places is of the Qur'an and not of the Torah. That's how they were being treacherous. 5:41 above illustrates this treacherous action.

Quote:
It is clear the Quran condemned the Jews are altering and changing the words of Allah.
The Words of Allah in the Qur'an. No mention of Allah saying in the Qur'an that the Jews corrupted the Torah text.

Quote:
READ AGAIN what the verses [above] from the Quran are stating.
I can understand why as a believer you MUST be blind, but I am asking you to wake up and face reality.
And I am asking you to show me just one verse of the Qur'an in which it is said that the Jews corrupted the Torah text. So far, all you have done is waffling and mental gymnastics.

The Qur'an actually confirmed the Torah that was with the Jews when the Qur'an was being revealed.

[2.41] color=blue[]And believe in what I have revealed, confirming that which is with you[/color], and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear.

Quote:
The ultimate proofs is the present Torah is not accepted by Muslims because it differ from the present Quran.
The Qur'an was never to be exactly like the Torah. This is stupid argument that the Torah differs from the Qur'an. The Torah was for the Jews coming from Egypt only. The Qur'an is for all mankind.

Quote:
From the Jews' perspective, it is obvious they will claim their Torah was never corrupted. The Jews will insist the Quran is wrong in claiming the Torah is corrupted since it first was revealed to the present.
Jews are correct in your former point and you are wrong in the latter point as the Qur'an does not claim that "THE TORAH IS CORRUPTED" (5:41).

Quote:
The Quran in the various sample of verses above do claim the Torah is corrupted since the time the original pure version was first revealed.
Not even in one verse the Qur'an is claiming that the Torah with the Jews in Madina was corrupted. 5:41 even confirms what was with them at the time.

Quote:
Another point is the Quran implied all scriptures prior to the one revealed to Muhammad were corrupted [differed] and Allah had punished those who differed from the original version as evidenced by the leftover destruction and ruins. The Quran claim the final revelations to Muhammad is the complete and perfect versions that confirm the older versions [wherever they are if existed].
Differed means differed in its interpretations and application, and not changing the text of the Torah.

Quote:
The Quran referred to the Torah and not the Talmud.
The Qur'an confirms the Torah but not the Talmud.

Quote:
It is Allah who made the claim and as a Muslim you have to take Allah's words for it else you would have sinned in doubting Allah's words.
I am sure you are not Allah.

Quote:
Btw, it is only the Quran [& Muslims] than claimed the Torah and Injil are corrupted.
Neither the Qur'an nor this Muslim claims that the Torah text has been corrupted.

Quote:
This is due to low self-esteem and thus such childish put-downs [note Trump's habit].
Obviously the present Jews and Christians do not claim the Torah and Injil respectively were ever corrupted.
Then you must have low self-esteem compared to mine.
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Old 08-20-2016, 11:19 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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My basis is based on the evidence of the present state where Muslims will not accept the Torah and Bible as a complete reference for Islam.
This is because the Quran claimed [verses provided] the Torah had been corrupted from the original version from God since it first emerged to the present version of the Torah.

Also note this article [amongst many others from Muslims] which claim the Torah was corrupted.
The Corruption of the Torah. – Many Prophets, One Message

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You are deliberately twisting what is said in the verse 2:58 as "mention of 'Muhammad' in the Torah". The "word" is made clear in the verse. No need to add your own twisted understanding.
That 'Ahmed' point is controversial but in any case that was my note which can be changed.
But the point as claimed by the Quran remain;
2:59. But those [Jews ] who did wrong changed the Word which had been told them for another saying, and We sent down upon the evil-doers wrath from Heaven for their evil doing.

Quote:
[2.75] Do you then hope that they would believe in you, and a party from among them indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this).

[2.76] And when they meet those who believe they say: We believe, and when they are alone one with another they say: Do you talk to them of what Allah has disclosed to you that they may contend with you by this before your Lord? Do you not then understand?


The "party from among them" means among those present who used to hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an) and change it.
Don't try to bull**** here.
That is the problem when you have only read the Quran 6-7 times.

In context verse 2:30-79 in context is with reference to the Jews and Muslims-of-old and the Quran-of-old not the present Muhammad's Quran. I suggest you read 2:30-79 and understand the context.

2:75 refer to the Jews of old who used to listen to the Quran-of-old, i.e. the Torah then a party changed it. Over the years these changes resulted in the existing Torah which is not acceptable to current Muslims because it was claimed by the Quran to be corrupted.

2:75 is confirmed with the following verses 2:76-76 as reference to the Jews who corrupted their Quran-of-old from Allah which is non-other than the Torah.

You are the ignorant one in this case.
Btw, you have been caught to be wrong in MANY instances already.


Quote:
[5.41] O Apostle! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths: We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.

Nothing to do with the Qur'an claiming that that the Torah, Gospels are corrupted!
What do you mean 'nothing to do the Quran'? That verse accusing the Jews of changing words from context is from the Quran!
The above refer the the general accusation of the the Jews inclinations to change [corrupt] the texts over time and thus ending with the present corrupted Torah [as claimed by the Quran].

Quote:
2:211: Ask of the Children of Israel [Jews] how many a clear revelation We gave them! He [the Jew] who altereth [change] the grace of Allah after it hath come unto him [Jew] (for him), lo! Allah is severe in punishment.
Is this your proof of the Qur'an claiming that the Torah, Gospels are corrupted? LOL!
That verse from the Quran is so obvious and explicit to support that the Quran claimed the Torah was corrupted by the Jews.
Are you that dumb to understand the statement made in 2:211

Quote:
As infidels corrupted their scriptures?

Once again, concealing the truth is not corrupting the Torah but not telling the truth.
Yes, concealing is not corruption per-se but 'confounding' is part and parcel of that whole process of corruption that is taking place when read in context of the whole Quran.

Quote:
Nothing to do with the Qur'an claiming the Torah text has been corrupted. The accusation is of them changing the words of the Qur'an from their context, just as you are doing here.
You are merely denying and waving off my point. This point is a part to support the tendencies of the Jews to change and altered the words.


Quote:
[b][5.12] And certainly Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel, and We raised up among them twelve chieftains; and Allah said: Surely I am with you; if you keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and believe in My apostles and asslst them and offer to Allah a goodly gift, I will most certainly cover your evil deeds, and I will most certainly cause you to enter into gardens beneath which rivers flow, but whoever disbelieves from among you after that, he indeed shall lose the right way.

[5.13] But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).

Once again, this is nothing to do with corruption of the Torah but them breaking the Covenant. Changing the words from their places is of the Qur'an and not of the Torah. That's how they were being treacherous. 5:41 above illustrates this treacherous action.
Again your ignorance is showing.

In context 5:12-32 is related the Jews.
Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel - the Jews.
That covenant with the Jews can only be made via the Quran-old, i.e. the Torah and not the latest Muhammad's Quran.
Therefore the Jews are accused of altering the words in the Torah.
This is proven solid because the present Torah is not completely accepted by the present Muslims.

The Words of Allah in the Qur'an. No mention of Allah saying in the Qur'an that the Jews corrupted the Torah text.

Quote:
And I am asking you to show me just one verse of the Qur'an in which it is said that the Jews corrupted the Torah text. So far, all you have done is waffling and mental gymnastics.
In the above have explained my points very accurately and you have been caught with your theological pants down, i.e. bad understanding of the Quran.

Quote:
The Qur'an actually confirmed the Torah that was with the Jews when the Qur'an was being revealed.

[2.41] color=blue[]And believe in what I have revealed, confirming that which is with you[/color], and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear.
I am aware of this point and I have presented my views on this many times.
Where the Quran mentioned it confirms the Torah, it is referring to the original version of the Torah from God and that is in principle [theory] only.
The reality on the ground is the Torah was already corrupted as claimed by the Quran. There may be verses that are in line with the original but the Torah as a whole is regarded as corrupted because it contained verses that were altered.
If you insist the Quran never claimed the Torah was corrupted then the Quran is contradicting itself.

Quote:
The Qur'an was never to be exactly like the Torah. This is stupid argument that the Torah differs from the Qur'an. The Torah was for the Jews coming from Egypt only. The Qur'an is for all mankind.

Jews are correct in your former point and you are wrong in the latter point as the Qur'an does not claim that "THE TORAH IS CORRUPTED" (5:41).
There is no original version of the Torah from God, therefore there is no way you can insist you are 100% certain the Torah is never exactly like the Torah.

Quote:
Not even in one verse the Qur'an is claiming that the Torah with the Jews in Madina was corrupted. 5:41 even confirms what was with them at the time.
5:41 in fact give the idea that the Jews has the tendency to change the texts and this is confirmed in the other verses I have presented. Note there are other verses [I have not produced yet] to support my point. The ones I have provided so far are sufficient to justify the Quran claimed the Torah is corrupted.

Quote:
Differed means differed in its interpretations and application, and not changing the text of the Torah.
What do you confined your understanding of 'differ' to the above. Corruption implies difference due to change from the original. The many times the term 'differ' in the Quran refer to 'corruption' of the Torah [and Gospels] as supported by many other related elements in context.

Quote:
Then you must have low self-esteem compared to mine.
What I have presented are objective views supported by evidence.
There are thousands of verses where the Jews, Christians and non-Muslims are condemned with childish 'put-downs' in the Quran. That's is a display of low self-esteem. I am sure you did not miss them unless you are really that 'blinded.'
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Old 08-21-2016, 02:45 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,047,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My basis is based on the evidence of the present state where Muslims will not accept the Torah and Bible as a complete reference for Islam.
Torah is a complete reference to Judaism. The Qur'an is completion of the complete reference to Islam. Torah must be accepted as the revelation from Allah by all Muslims:

We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit. (2:136)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is because the Quran claimed [verses provided] the Torah had been corrupted from the original version from God since it first emerged to the present version of the Torah.
Nowhere in the Qur'an it is stated that the Torah text has been corrupted. You have admitted that you claimed so through implication rather than it being actual and explicit claim of the Qur'an.
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Old 08-21-2016, 08:43 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Torah is a complete reference to Judaism. The Qur'an is completion of the complete reference to Islam. Torah must be accepted as the revelation from Allah by all Muslims:

We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit. (2:136)
What you are speaking is in theory and principle only.
The original version of the Torah was revealed to the prophets of old by the SAME GOD who revealed the Quran to Muhammad.
Because it is the same God, therefore the Muslims must accept the original version of the Torah.
It would be an insult to Allah if the Muslims do not accept Allah revelation of the original uncorrupted version of the Torah.

But the reality as presented in the context of the Quran, the original uncorrupted Torah from Allah to the prophets of old has been altered [corrupted] by the Jews over time. Thus the present copy of the Torah in the hand of the Jews are corrupted as claimed by the Quran.

Quote:
Nowhere in the Qur'an it is stated that the Torah text has been corrupted. You have admitted that you claimed so through implication rather than it being actual and explicit claim of the Qur'an.
You cannot be that desperate to play this twisted semantic game.
I have already define what I mean by the term 'corruption'.
Corruption: the process by which something, typically a word or expression, is changed from its original use or meaning to one that is regarded as erroneous or debased.
synonyms:alteration, bastardization, debasement, adulteration
"these figures have been subject to corruption"
I agree the Quran did not use the term 'corruption' but corruption is an obviously a synonym to alterations, changes & adulteratons.

If you want to be in kindergarten in terms of meaning of a word, then I will state, the Quran EXPLICITLY claimed [supported by the various verses] the original version of the Torah from God was subjected to alterations and changes over time. Thus the present copy is an altered/changed copy of the the original unaltered copy.
Do you dispute this?

yubaddil يُبَدِّلْ ب د ل = changes

If you are really a matured intellectual thinker you would not have waste my time disputing the use to the term 'corruption' which is very obvious and reflect the intent of the Quran in its overall context.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-21-2016 at 08:51 PM..
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Old 08-22-2016, 03:08 PM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,047,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Torah is a complete reference to Judaism. The Qur'an is completion of the complete reference to Islam. Torah must be accepted as the revelation from Allah by all Muslims:

We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit. (2:136)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What you are speaking is in theory and principle only.
Wrong!

Circumcision of male babies is not in theory only but in practice. It is from the Torah only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The original version of the Torah was revealed to the prophets of old by the SAME GOD who revealed the Quran to Muhammad.
Because it is the same God, therefore the Muslims must accept the original version of the Torah.
It would be an insult to Allah if the Muslims do not accept Allah revelation of the original uncorrupted version of the Torah.
Two points:

1. It is insult to Allah/God if any Jew or Christian does not accept the Qur'an from the Same God.

2. Muslims accepted the Torah that was with the Jews in Madina when the Qur'an was being revealed.

[2.41] And believe in what I have revealed, confirming that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear.

[3.81] And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then a messenger comes to you confirming that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this
(matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
But the reality as presented in the context of the Quran, the original uncorrupted Torah from Allah to the prophets of old has been altered [corrupted] by the Jews over time. Thus the present copy of the Torah in the hand of the Jews are corrupted as claimed by the Quran.
Not by the Qur'an! You have not proved your claim so far. There isn't even one verse in the Qur'an that claims that the Torah in the hands of Jews in Madina, when the Qur'an was being revealed, was corrupted. In fact the Qur'an actually confirmed the Torah in their hands (2:41).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Nowhere in the Qur'an it is stated that the Torah text has been corrupted. You have admitted that you claimed so through implication rather than it being actual and explicit claim of the Qur'an.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You cannot be that desperate to play this twisted semantic game.
I have already define what I mean by the term 'corruption'.
Who cares what "you mean" when the Qur'an hasn't "claimed" so but only "you mean" so! You could have said so from the outset but you insisted that it is claim of the Qur'an. It's only when I pressed you that you told us what "you mean".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I agree the Quran did not use the term 'corruption' but corruption is an obviously a synonym to alterations, changes & adulteratons.
Alteration, changes and adulteration of the Torah text is not claimed by the Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you want to be in kindergarten in terms of meaning of a word, then I will state, the Quran EXPLICITLY claimed [supported by the various verses] the original version of the Torah from God was subjected to alterations and changes over time. Thus the present copy is an altered/changed copy of the the original unaltered copy.
Do you dispute this?
YES. 2:41 confirms the Torah in the hands of the Jews in Madina. Here is another verse from the Qur'an that refers to the Torah in the hands of Jews in Madina at the time the Qur'an was being revealed:

[3.93] All food was lawful to the children of Israel except that which Israel had forbidden to himself, before the Torah was revealed. Say: Bring then the Torah and read it, if you are truthful.

Clearly, it is the Torah in the Jewish hands that is being referred to here to decide the issue. This would not have been said about the Torah if its text had been "changed", "altered" or adulterated from the revealed Torah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
yubaddil يُبَدِّلْ ب د ل = changes
Correct! Read 50:29.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you are really a matured intellectual thinker you would not have waste my time disputing the use to the term 'corruption' which is very obvious and reflect the intent of the Quran in its overall context.
Why are you still insisting that this is the "intent" of the Qur'an when earlier on it was the "claim" of the Qur'an?

I am not wasting your time but refuting your false claim about the Qur'an.
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Old 08-23-2016, 01:50 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,594,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Wrong!
Circumcision of male babies is not in theory only but in practice. It is from the Torah only.
You missed my point.

I stated in principle and theory, "the original uncorrupted Torah must be accepted as the revelation from Allah by all Muslims."
But in practice, the problem is where is the 'original uncorrupted Torah' for the Muslims to accept.

It is a fact that the present Torah as it is cannot be accepted by Muslims.

I am sure the practice of circumcision [males and females] could be practiced by other traditions besides the Torah, there is nothing special about it.

So the point is the theory that the original uncorrupted Torah must be accepted all Muslims cannot be done in practiced then [when first corrupted] and now.

Quote:
Two points:

1. It is insult to Allah/God if any Jew or Christian does not accept the Qur'an from the Same God.

2. Muslims accepted the Torah that was with the Jews in Madina when the Qur'an was being revealed.

[2.41] And believe in what I have revealed, confirming that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear.

[3.81] And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then a messenger comes to you confirming that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this
(matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.
2:41 is just a theory and principle only because it is assumed and taken for granted the original version directly from God was not corrupted.
The point is Muhammad could not have checked every copy of the Torah in existence then to confirm they were the original uncorrupted copies.
In addition, Muhammad could not know what was supposed to be the original corrupted copy and besides he was illiterate and could not read to confirm them.

Note in 3:81 Allah was telling the Jews of the future in terms of theory and principle that a messenger will appear in the future to confirm what they have been given [the uncorrupted version].
The fact was by the time Muhammad appeared the Jews has already corrupted their Torah over time.
It is the Quran that claimed the Jews had altered the Torah.

Quote:
Not by the Qur'an! You have not proved your claim so far. There isn't even one verse in the Qur'an that claims that the Torah in the hands of Jews in Madina, when the Qur'an was being revealed, was corrupted. In fact the Qur'an actually confirmed the Torah in their hands (2:41).
Note my explanation on why your views of 2:41 do not hold water.

I have repeated the verses where Allah accused the Jews of altering and changing the words of the revealed texts; read the OP again and here is one of them;
2:211. Ask of the Children of Israel [Jews] how many a clear revelation We gave them! He [the Jew] who altereth [change] the grace of Allah after it hath come unto him [Jew] (for him), lo! Allah is severe in punishment.
How can you be so blind to the above?

Quote:
Who cares what "you mean" when the Qur'an hasn't "claimed" so but only "you mean" so! You could have said so from the outset but you insisted that it is claim of the Qur'an. It's only when I pressed you that you told us what "you mean".
I am surprised you are so dumb on this.
I have been consistent all along.
In the OP I presented verses where the Quran claimed the Jews altered and changes the words of the Torah, which is synonymous with "corruption".

Quote:
Alteration, changes and adulteration of the Torah text is not claimed by the Qur'an.
Re the verses in the OP again and I have repeated them many times. Read 2:211 above!

Quote:
YES. 2:41 confirms the Torah in the hands of the Jews in Madina. Here is another verse from the Qur'an that refers to the Torah in the hands of Jews in Madina at the time the Qur'an was being revealed:

[3.93] All food was lawful to the children of Israel except that which Israel had forbidden to himself, before the Torah was revealed. Say: Bring then the Torah and read it, if you are truthful.

Clearly, it is the Torah in the Jewish hands that is being referred to here to decide the issue. This would not have been said about the Torah if its text had been "changed", "altered" or adulterated from the revealed Torah.
When the Quran claimed the Torah is corrupted it is not implied all verses are corrupted. In this case, the Quran refer to the verses related to food and if both the Jews and Muslims has no issue then they can agree on it. Example the Jews will not disagree with the Muslims on the concept of monotheism but as far as the whole Torah is concerned it is corrupted where it matters.


Quote:
Correct! Read 50:29.
Note I quoted 50:29 in the OP!
50:29 is the principle but that cannot prevent the Jews from changing and altering the original version of the Torah from God.

Quote:
Why are you still insisting that this is the "intent" of the Qur'an when earlier on it was the "claim" of the Qur'an?
What is the issue with this?
What I am saying is, it is the "intention" of the Quran of its the "claim" of corruption.
The intended meaning of the Quran is the Torah is corrupted as confirmed by its use of the term 'alterations' and 'changes' to the texts.

Quote:
I am not wasting your time but refuting your false claim about the Qur'an.
The wasting of time was your denying that alteration and changes is not synonymous with 'corruption' of text.
In my OP I stated 'corruption' and supported with verses that stated 'alterations' and changes of 'words' and text.
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Old 08-27-2016, 12:44 PM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,047,626 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I stated in principle and theory, "the original uncorrupted Torah must be accepted as the revelation from Allah by all Muslims."
But in practice, the problem is where is the 'original uncorrupted Torah' for the Muslims to accept.
How did Muslim accept the circumcision of male babies when it is only in the Torah and not in the Qur'an?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is a fact that the present Torah as it is cannot be accepted by Muslims.
Where does it say in the Qur'an that Muslims should not accept the Torah in the hands of Jews?

Muslims accept that the Torah was from Allah to the Children of Israel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am sure the practice of circumcision [males and females] could be practiced by other traditions besides the Torah, there is nothing special about it.
There is nothing about the circumcision of males and females in the Qur'an. The circumcision of females is simply cultural and not Islamic. But the circumcision of males is Islamic and goes back to Abraham, and is found only in the Torah. If we reject the Torah we have to reject the circumcision of males as well. Everything that is in the Torah, and is referred to in the Qur'an as guidance, is acceptable to Muslims unless clearly stated that it is no longer needed.

The Qur'an does not say that the Jews corrupted the Torah but that many Jews did not observe the Torah.
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