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Old 05-25-2016, 04:26 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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In the Quran, Allah claimed the original Torah, Gospels from Allah has been corrupted by believers over time.
As such the present Torah and Gospels are the corrupted versions and they should not be accepted as Islamic.


I. Allah's Quran cannot be changed.
50:29. The sentence [word, l-qawlu الْقَوْلُ ق و ل ] that cometh from Me [Allah] cannot be changed, and I am in no wise a tyrant unto the slaves. [immutability] [nb: different trans for l-qawlu]

17:77. (Such was Our) method in the case of those whom We sent before thee (to mankind), and thou wilt not find for Our method aught of power to change. 17

18:27. And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.

6:115. Perfected is the Word [Quran] of thy Lord in truth and justice. There is naught that can change His words [the Quran]. He [Allah] is the Hearer, the Knower. [immutability of Quran, its commands, threats and promises] [note v5:3, 6:114-5 v20:114]

33:62. That was the way of Allah in the case of those [proto Muslims] who passed away of old; thou wilt not find for the way of Allah aught of power to change. [from past decrees of Allah]


II. Where Jews and Christians Changed the Words of Allah
2:59. But those [Jews ] who did wrong changed the Word which had been told them for another saying, and We sent down upon the evil-doers wrath from Heaven for their evil doing. [re mentioned of 'Muhammad' in the Torah, note Songs of Solomon]

2:75. Have ye any hope that they [Jews] will be true to you when a party of them [Jews] used to listen to the Word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it knowingly?

2:211. Ask of the Children of Israel [Jews] how many a clear revelation We gave them! He [the Jew] who altereth [change] the grace of Allah after it hath come unto him [Jew] (for him), lo! Allah is severe in punishment.

3:71. O People of the Scripture! [Jews and Christians] Why confound ye [as infidels] truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the truth? [accused Jews of corruption of the scripture]

4:46. Some [ignorant zealous Jews] of those who are Jews change words from their context and say: "We hear and disobey; hear thou as one who heareth not" and "Listen to us!" [Ra'ina] distorting [twisting] with their tongues and slandering religion [alddeeni]. If they [Jews] had said: "We hear and we obey; hear thou, and look at us" it had been better for them, and more upright. But Allah hath cursed them [Jew infidels] for their disbelief, so they [Jews - infidels] believe not, save a few. [Ra'ina - pejorative]

5:13. And because of their [infidel Jews] breaking their covenant, We have cursed them [infidel Jews] and made hard their hearts. They [infidels] change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished*. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from ALL [Jews] save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly. [* cautioned, reproved, scolded, or reminded?]

In the above verses in list (II) Allah has condemned the Jews and Christians for changing the words of the respective original version of the Quran-of-old from Allah.

Other than 4:46 the alterations and changes by the Jews, Christians and others refer to general changes of the scriptures.

Because Allah did not specify which specific verses or message was changed there is no way to determine which verses of the Qurans-of-old has not been changed.
For example, take the Gospels:
Because Allah has condemned the Christians for changing the words of the original revelations, how can Muslims know which verses in the Injil [originally from Allah] are still valid and which verses are the corrupted ones?
Allah did not specify which verses are corrupted in the injil but condemned the Christians for changing the verses in general and thus it could be any verse of the Gospels.
Therefore it would be correct for Muslims to confirm the whole scripture of Torah and Gospels of the present [including any Qurans-of-old] had been corrupted and cannot be considered as Islamic.

The ONLY valid scripture for Muslims is the final, perfect, complete & immutable Quran [the sole words of Allah] and nothing else.

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Old 05-25-2016, 04:43 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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These are verses that do not mention the people of the Scriptures changed their book. However the contents and context indirectly imply the scriptures were changed.
7: 157. Those [Muslims] who follow the messenger [Muhammad], the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they [Muslims] will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them [Muslims].
[1] He [Muhammad] will enjoin [prescribe with authority] on them [Muslims] that which is right and forbid them [Muslims] that which is wrong.
[2] He [Muhammad] will make lawful for them [Muslims] all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them [Muslims] of their burden and the fetters that they [Muslims] used to wear. Then those [Muslims] who believe in him [Muhammad], and honour him and help him, and follow the light [Quran] which is sent down with him: they [Muslims] are the successful.

4:50. See, how they [Jew infidels] invent lies about Allah! That of itself is flagrant [unforgivable] sin [ithm].

5:15. O people of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger [Muhammad] come unto you [Jews & Christians], expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. Now hath come unto you [Jews & Christians] light from Allah and a plain Scripture

61:7. And who [infidels] doth greater wrong than he [infidel - Jews] who inventeth a lie against Allah when he [infidel -Jews] is summoned unto Al Islam. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk [infidels].

61:8. Fain [eager, desirous] would they [infidels] put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will perfect His light however much the disbelievers are averse.

7:157 Allah claimed Muhammad is described in the original version of Torah and Gospels from Allah but such a description is not in the present Torah and Gospels.
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Old 06-05-2016, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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The easiest way is to ask a Jew if the OT is the same as the Jewish bible as Christians claim. You will get a very emphatic no. The OT is a reversed engineering job to make the Jewish scriptures appear to prophecize the coming of Christ(a.s.) of course the Christians will tell you it is because the Jews do not understand the Tanakh or mistranslated it and the OT is the correct version of the Jewish scriptures.

As for the Injil, (The Gospel of Jesus) the Christians did not change it. they never saved it. However, pieces of it might be retained in the Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John( but they may not be accurate as the 4 do not quite agree. Parts of the Injil might exist in the "Gospel of Thomas" a Book the the council of Nicea did not accept for the Bible.
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Old 06-05-2016, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The easiest way is to ask a Jew if the OT is the same as the Jewish bible as Christians claim. You will get a very emphatic no. The OT is a reversed engineering job to make the Jewish scriptures appear to prophecize the coming of Christ(a.s.) of course the Christians will tell you it is because the Jews do not understand the Tanakh or mistranslated it and the OT is the correct version of the Jewish scriptures.

As for the Injil, (The Gospel of Jesus) the Christians did not change it. they never saved it. However, pieces of it might be retained in the Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John( but they may not be accurate as the 4 do not quite agree. Parts of the Injil might exist in the "Gospel of Thomas" a Book the the council of Nicea did not accept for the Bible.
As far as the Jews and Christians are concerned they have their own respect and reverence for their holy texts in their own ways and accept the teachings therein accordingly. There are no issues from the perspective of the Jews and Christians themselves in this case.

There is no need to ask the Jews and Christians at all because they are not the one who claimed and insisted on the issue.

What is problematic is the Quran [busybody, low self-esteem, etc.] claimed and accused the Jews and Christians of corrupting the original Quran-of-old [i.e. Torah and Injil] from Allah, as supported by the verses from the Quran [note above].

The main point of the OP is to prove that the Quran as evidenced from various verses did claim the present Torah and Injil are corrupted and thus should be rejected wholesale.

Because there is no original Quran-of-old to compare with and Allah did not specifically state which verses were corrupted, there is no way a Muslim can pick and choose which verses from the Torah and Injil are still valid.
What is valid is perhaps verses that are exactly the same in principle as stated in the present Quran [Allah's words]. Since that is the case, then a Muslim should just ignore the Torah and Injil and rely solely on the Quran.
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Old 06-05-2016, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As far as the Jews and Christians are concerned they have their own respect and reverence for their holy texts in their own ways and accept the teachings therein accordingly. There are no issues from the perspective of the Jews and Christians themselves in this case.

There is no need to ask the Jews and Christians at all because they are not the one who claimed and insisted on the issue.

What is problematic is the Quran [busybody, low self-esteem, etc.] claimed and accused the Jews and Christians of corrupting the original Quran-of-old [i.e. Torah and Injil] from Allah, as supported by the verses from the Quran [note above].

The main point of the OP is to prove that the Quran as evidenced from various verses did claim the present Torah and Injil are corrupted and thus should be rejected wholesale.

Because there is no original Quran-of-old to compare with and Allah did not specifically state which verses were corrupted, there is no way a Muslim can pick and choose which verses from the Torah and Injil are still valid.
What is valid is perhaps verses that are exactly the same in principle as stated in the present Quran [Allah's words]. Since that is the case, then a Muslim should just ignore the Torah and Injil and rely solely on the Quran.
Even to a novice a cursory examination will verify the Christians changed the Tanakh into the OY. It is a corrupted form of the Tanakh. the next part of the Change is they did not retainthe Injil of Jesus*as( while the words in the NT probably have not changed. they are not the Inil which is the gospel Muslims are talking about. they corrupted it by not preserving it.

as for the Jews, it is hard to detect any corruption except that very many have failed to follow it. for example very many Jews are not religious

Of the religions surveyed in the poll, Jews were found to be the least religious: Only 38 percent of the Jewish population worldwide considers itself religious, while 54 sees itself as non-religious and 2 percent categorizes itself as atheist. In comparison, 97 percent of Buddhists, 83 percent of Protestant Christians and 74 percent of Muslims consider themselves religious.
read more: New Poll Shows Atheism on Rise, With Jews Found to Be Least Religious - Haaretz - Israel News Haaretz.com

The known previous revelation of the Qur'an are the Torah, Psalms. Injil (The Gospel of Jesus, not the Bible, nor the 4 Gospels in it) and the Qur'an. Of those only the Qur'an remains as originally revealed.
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Old 06-06-2016, 12:37 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Even to a novice a cursory examination will verify the Christians changed the Tanakh into the OY. It is a corrupted form of the Tanakh. the next part of the Change is they did not retainthe Injil of Jesus*as( while the words in the NT probably have not changed. they are not the Inil which is the gospel Muslims are talking about. they corrupted it by not preserving it.

as for the Jews, it is hard to detect any corruption except that very many have failed to follow it. for example very many Jews are not religious

Of the religions surveyed in the poll, Jews were found to be the least religious: Only 38 percent of the Jewish population worldwide considers itself religious, while 54 sees itself as non-religious and 2 percent categorizes itself as atheist. In comparison, 97 percent of Buddhists, 83 percent of Protestant Christians and 74 percent of Muslims consider themselves religious.
read more: New Poll Shows Atheism on Rise, With Jews Found to Be Least Religious - Haaretz - Israel News Haaretz.com

The known previous revelation of the Qur'an are the Torah, Psalms. Injil (The Gospel of Jesus, not the Bible, nor the 4 Gospels in it) and the Qur'an. Of those only the Qur'an remains as originally revealed.
Your point is off topic.
I am sure there are interchanges between Jews and Christians regarding their respective texts. I have not researched into this because it is irrelevant to the OP.

Note the OP is related to'
The main point of the OP is to prove that the Quran as evidenced from various verses did claim the present Torah and Injil are corrupted and thus should be rejected wholesale.
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Old 06-06-2016, 02:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In the Quran, Allah claimed the original Torah, Gospels from Allah has been corrupted by believers over time.
Allah has never "claimed" so in the Qur'an. YOUR claim is a blatant lie against the Qur'an and Allah (SWT). You have utterly failed to quote even one verse of the Qur'an in which Allah claimed the original Torah, Gospels were "corrupted" by believers.

All you have done in this thread is expose your ignorance about the Qur'an by making false claims about what is "claimed" in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As such the present Torah and Gospels are the corrupted versions and they should not be accepted as Islamic.
You begin with false premise and then claim your conclusion is not false. LOL!

This is what the Qur'an says:

[3.93] All food was lawful to the children of Israel except that which Israel had forbidden to himself, before the Taurat was revealed. Say: Bring then the Taurat and read it, if you are truthful.
Why would Allah say, "Bring then the Taurat and read it" if it was "corrupted"?

[5.43] And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.

They had the Taurat with them at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an in which was the judgment of Allah for the Jews. Allah's charge against them was, why would they pretend to make Muhammad their judge (in their own cases) when the judgment of Allah in such cases was already in the Taurat with them at the time? Is the reference to Allah's judgment in the "corrupted" Torah?

If you can't understand the Qur'an then at least do not make false claims about it!
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Old 06-06-2016, 02:50 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Allah has never "claimed" so in the Qur'an. YOUR claim is a blatant lie against the Qur'an and Allah (SWT). You have utterly failed to quote even one verse of the Qur'an in which Allah claimed the original Torah, Gospels were "corrupted" by believers.

All you have done in this thread is expose your ignorance about the Qur'an by making false claims about what is "claimed" in it.

You begin with false premise and then claim your conclusion is not false. LOL!

This is what the Qur'an says:

[3.93] All food was lawful to the children of Israel except that which Israel had forbidden to himself, before the Taurat was revealed. Say: Bring then the Taurat and read it, if you are truthful.
Why would Allah say, "Bring then the Taurat and read it" if it was "corrupted"?

[5.43] And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.

They had the Taurat with them at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an in which was the judgment of Allah for the Jews. Allah's charge against them was, why would they pretend to make Muhammad their judge (in their own cases) when the judgment of Allah in such cases was already in the Taurat with them at the time? Is the reference to Allah's judgment in the "corrupted" Torah?

If you can't understand the Qur'an then at least do not make false claims about it!
I have provided the relevant verses in the OP and the other post to justify my point.

As for the verses you quoted, that was under the supervision and within Allah's purview that Allah knows which are the corrupted verses and which are not. What Allah has requested to read then are the non-corrupted verses but only Allah knows.

But the point is Allah never subsequently specify which other verses are corrupted and which are not corrupted.
Therefore with the present version of the Torah and Injil there is no way one can know which verses are valid and which are not valid and Allah is not around to decide.
Since Allah did state the Jews and Christians did change, hide and removed verses from the original version, there is no way one can verify the present Torah and Injil as 100% true to the original version.

Therefore whatever is the present version of the Torah and Injil on paper cannot be the original version but the corrupted version as Allah had known and claimed.

Since Allah can never appear to confirm which is the original true version of the Torah and Injil, it is only proper that Muslims must accept what is stated in the Quran by Allah, i.e. the present Torah and Injil are corrupted.

The point is you cannot intercept the nuances in the Quran because you have only read the Quran-at-one-go 6-7 times only.

Another point is if what you claim is true, i.e. the present Torah and Injil is not corrupted then Muslims should be Christian-Muslims or Jewish-Muslims but in reality that is not the case because the Quran condemned Jews and Christians with the holy texts in the worst known manner.

Will Muslims ever love their enemies unconditionally, give their other cheeks, love everyone, etc. as exhorted by the Gospels? To expect this? Dream on!
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Old 06-06-2016, 03:42 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have provided the relevant verses in the OP and the other post to justify my point.
None of them say Torah has been corrupted. You have quoted verses irrelevant to your claim of what Allah "claimed".

Quote:
As for the verses you quoted, that was under the supervision and within Allah's purview that Allah knows which are the corrupted verses and which are not. What Allah has requested to read then are the non-corrupted verses but only Allah knows.
You are now looking for a straw to hang on to but you will find none. Allah has also said in the Qur'an:

[2:41] And believe in that which I reveal, confirming that which ye possess already, and be not first to disbelieve therein, and part not with My revelations for a trifling price, and keep your duty unto Me.

That's it, on your bike with your false claim about Allah claiming the Torah has been "corrupted"!
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Old 06-06-2016, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your point is off topic.
I am sure there are interchanges between Jews and Christians regarding their respective texts. I have not researched into this because it is irrelevant to the OP.

Note the OP is related to'
The main point of the OP is to prove that the Quran as evidenced from various verses did claim the present Torah and Injil are corrupted and thus should be rejected wholesale.

You would have to first find a copy of the Injil , it is corrupted not because of change, it was corrupted by ommission.

The existing Christian Scriptures are not the injil. they are not even what is mentioned in the Qur'an. the injil (gospel of Jesus) and The Torah are mentioned and it is not being followed as it was not preserved.


The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah ... and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (42:13 AYA). The result of this view is that the scriptures given by these Prophets are considered to be genuine scriptures from God: But say, "We (Muslims) believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you (Jews & Christians); our Allah and your Allah is One" (29:46 ).

The Christian Bible is not even mentioned in the Qur'an what is mentioned is the Injil (The Gospel of Jesus) which unfortuanatly many translators translate into gospel

Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread) - 5:68
قُلْ يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لَسْتُمْ عَلَى شَيْءٍ حَتَّىَ تُقِيمُواْالتَّوْرَاةَ وَالإِنجِيلَ وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُم مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَلَيَزِيدَنَّ كَثِيرًا مِّنْهُم مَّا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ طُغْيَانًا وَكُفْرًا فَلاَ تَأْسَ عَلَى الْقَوْمِ الْكَافِرِينَ (5:68)

Qul ya ahla alkitabi lastum AAala shayin hatta tuqeemoo alttawrata waalinjeela wama onzila ilaykum min rabbikum walayazeedanna katheeran minhum ma onzila ilayka min rabbika tughyanan wakufran fala tasa AAala alqawmi alkafireena

Say: "O followers of the Bible! You have no valid ground for your beliefs -unless you [truly] observe the Torah and the Gospel, and all that has been bestowed from on high upon you by your Sustainer!" [85] Yet all that has been bestowed from on high upon thee [O Prophet] by thy Sustainer is bound to make many of them yet more stubborn in their overweening arrogance and in their denial of the truth. But sorrow not over people who deny the truth: - 5:68 (Asad)

Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith. - 5:68 (Y. Ali)

Say: O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk. - 5:68 (Picktall)
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