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Old 05-26-2016, 12:54 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Since the issue of abrogation in the Quran is a common topic, I will open a specific thread to discuss the various issues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif

The same charge was made by the Jews when Jesus had brought a new message, and so did both the Jews and the Christians when the Qur'an was revealed.

Here is the passage with its context to show that the message in 2:106 is directed towards the People of the previous Book (followers of the Book):

[2.105] Those who disbelieve from among the followers of the Book do not like, nor do the polytheists, that the good should be sent down to you from your Lord, and Allah chooses especially whom He pleases for His mercy, and Allah is the Lord of mighty grace.

[2.106] Whatever ayatin (message) We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?


Therefore, it is reference to God's "power over all things" and that He can send another message "similar or better"; the Injeel after the Taurat, and the Qur'an after the Injeel. Do you (People of the Book) not know that God has power over all things?

The verse 2:106 is not about verses of the Qur'an but about the verses of the previous message that had been forgotten and some verses were no longer needed such as about Sabbath.

As I stated previously, one needs to understand the Qur'an before one can understand the verse 2:106. It is not about any verse of the Qur'an being abrogated but parts of the previous messages that had been either forgotten or were no longer needed in that form otherwise there would be no need for the Qur'an.

Anyone claiming that verses of the Qur'an have been abrogated (meaning cancelled and made null and void completely) is unable to understand the Qur'an and unable to reconcile a verse in the Qur'an with another verse of the Qur'an on the same issue. So such a person thinks of an easy way out; the verse he can't reconcile with the other verses is abrogated. Thus the problem in his mind is solved. But, in reality, he has created another problem for himself; he is unable to tell how many verses of the Qur'an, he thinks, have been abrogated. They all have their own number in ignorance.

Conclusion: No verse of the Qur'an was ever made annul or forgotten. The latter is quite telling! Which verse of the Qur'an was forgotten if they are all there?
As a Muslim and believer you have no choice but to sway to what suit your beliefs, insisting 2:106 refers to abrogation of the old scriptures rather that the verses [ayat] within the Quran.

However the contexts of the Quran indicate otherwise.

Note 2:105 mentioned "nor do the polytheists" so it is not specific to Jews and Christians and their holy books.

Thus 2:106 is a general point in relation to any revelations from Allah which could be individual verse, set of verses or chapters.


Here are the verses related to abrogation
2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

13:39 Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.

16:101 When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.
Note this argument from an ex-Muslim for abrogation related to verses rather than whole scriptures re The Problem of Abrogation in the Quran

There are four possibilities relating to the term 'abrogation' in the Quran, i.e.
• Muslim scholars of old hold to the concept that some ayahs in the Quran abrogate other ayahs in the Quran, but do not all hold to the same set of abrogated and abrogating ayahs.
• Other Muslim scholars are of the opinion that the Quran may abrogate the Quran as well as the Sunnah (deed or example of Mohammad) and vice versa.
• Some Muslim scholars hold that the Quran abrogates all the previous scriptures, specifically the scriptures sent to Musa and Isa, but not itself.
• Some Muslim scholars, especially of recent times do not believe in the concept of abrogation at all.
Faroog argued that 2:106, 13:39 and 16:101 are most effective in reference to the abrogation of the verses in the Quran rather than the whole scriptures like Torah or Injil. If Allah intended to abrogate the whole scriptures Allah would have used the term 'kitab' as used in similar contexts.
The Problem of Abrogation in the Quran

He argued that when the Quran refers to the Torah or Injil it use the term 'Kitab' but 2:106 refers to ayat (āyatin ءَايَةٍ ا ى ا ).

There are many cases in the Quran where abrogation need to be applied to enable the Quran to make sense.


An example that is often used to show the topic of abrogation as relevant and true in the Quran is the topic of wine drinking.
In early Islam, wine drinking and gambling were allowed - Surah 2:219:
2:219They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-
From this ayah it was taught that drinking and gambling could provide a benefit and also have bad effects. To identify that the practice of drinking wine was not uncommon among Muslims, another ayah was revealed that forbade the Muslims to come to prayer drunk, Surah 4:43:

Then the ayah Surah 5:93 was revealed to stop drinking wine since it is an abomination.
5:93 O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (Dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, - of Satan’s handiwork: Eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
If the concept of abrogation is not introduced then it shows there are contradiction and confusions in the Quran.
Therefore 2:106 refers to abrogation of the verses within the Quran rather than the whole scripture.

In fact there is no abrogation of the Torah and Injil as mentioned in the Quran.
What actually happened was the Jews and Christians [as claimed by the Quran] corrupted the original revelations from Allah and thus these later corrupted versions of the scriptures are automatically not Islamic at all. There is no question of abrogation in this case.

There are many verses in the Quran that necessitate the applications of abrogation to enable them to make sense otherwise the Quran will look bad, e.g.;
• Surah 9:29 abrogating Surah 2:109
• Surah 2:185 abrogating Surah 2:184
• Surah 9:36 abrogating Surah 2:217 and Surah 45:14
Therefore, since in contexts there are many cases where there are variations and contradictions in the Quran between certain sets of verses, examples given above, verse 2:106 is most effective to be referred to abrogation of verses within the Quran rather than abrogating older scriptures.

Another point:
Re abrogation I agree in some cases it is not a matter of making the older verses null and void. I believe in some cases the older verse is still applicable where the circumstances warrant it but the latest verse override ultimately if need be.

Views?

Last edited by Continuum; 05-26-2016 at 01:07 AM..
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Old 05-26-2016, 12:58 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Some links to the topics on Abrogation in the Quran.

Abrogation in the Qur'an
Abrogated Verses Of the Quran
Abrogation in the Koran
The Problem of Abrogation in the Quran
◦Abolishing what Satan proposes? — A Fresh Look at the Reason for Abrogation in the Quran
◦Promise and fulfillment in the Bible (in contrast to abrogation)
◦Biblical Consummation versus Islamic Abrogation: [Part 1], [Part 2]
◦Various articles with information and thoughts on the issue of abrogation:[*],[*],[*],[*],[*],[*],[*]

For the link to the others see:
The Qur'an - Claims & Evaluation
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Old 05-26-2016, 01:34 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 660,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Since the issue of abrogation in the Quran is a common topic, I will open a specific thread to discuss the various issues.



As a Muslim and believer you have no choice but to sway to what suit your beliefs, insisting 2:106 refers to abrogation of the old scriptures rather that the verses [ayat] within the Quran.

However the contexts of the Quran indicate otherwise.

Note 2:105 mentioned "nor do the polytheists" so it is not specific to Jews and Christians and their holy books.

Thus 2:106 is a general point in relation to any revelations from Allah which could be individual verse, set of verses or chapters.


Here are the verses related to abrogation
2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

13:39 Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.

16:101 When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.
Note this argument from an ex-Muslim for abrogation related to verses rather than whole scriptures re The Problem of Abrogation in the Quran

There are four possibilities relating to the term 'abrogation' in the Quran, i.e.
• Muslim scholars of old hold to the concept that some ayahs in the Quran abrogate other ayahs in the Quran, but do not all hold to the same set of abrogated and abrogating ayahs.
• Other Muslim scholars are of the opinion that the Quran may abrogate the Quran as well as the Sunnah (deed or example of Mohammad) and vice versa.
• Some Muslim scholars hold that the Quran abrogates all the previous scriptures, specifically the scriptures sent to Musa and Isa, but not itself.
• Some Muslim scholars, especially of recent times do not believe in the concept of abrogation at all.
Faroog argued that 2:106, 13:39 and 16:101 are most effective in reference to the abrogation of the verses in the Quran rather than the whole scriptures like Torah or Injil. If Allah intended to abrogate the whole scriptures Allah would have used the term 'kitab' as used in similar contexts.
The Problem of Abrogation in the Quran

He argued that when the Quran refers to the Torah or Injil it use the term 'Kitab' but 2:106 refers to ayat (āyatin ءَايَةٍ ا ى ا ).

There are many cases in the Quran where abrogation need to be applied to enable the Quran to make sense.


An example that is often used to show the topic of abrogation as relevant and true in the Quran is the topic of wine drinking.
In early Islam, wine drinking and gambling were allowed - Surah 2:219:
2:219They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-
From this ayah it was taught that drinking and gambling could provide a benefit and also have bad effects. To identify that the practice of drinking wine was not uncommon among Muslims, another ayah was revealed that forbade the Muslims to come to prayer drunk, Surah 4:43:

Then the ayah Surah 5:93 was revealed to stop drinking wine since it is an abomination.
5:93 O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (Dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, - of Satan’s handiwork: Eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
If the concept of abrogation is not introduced then it shows there are contradiction and confusions in the Quran.
Therefore 2:106 refers to abrogation of the verses within the Quran rather than the whole scripture.

In fact there is no abrogation of the Torah and Injil as mentioned in the Quran.
What actually happened was the Jews and Christians [as claimed by the Quran] corrupted the original revelations from Allah and thus these later corrupted versions of the scriptures are automatically not Islamic at all. There is no question of abrogation in this case.

There are many verses in the Quran that necessitate the applications of abrogation to enable them to make sense otherwise the Quran will look bad, e.g.;
• Surah 9:29 abrogating Surah 2:109
• Surah 2:185 abrogating Surah 2:184
• Surah 9:36 abrogating Surah 2:217 and Surah 45:14
Therefore, since in contexts there are many cases where there are variations and contradictions in the Quran between certain sets of verses, examples given above, verse 2:106 is most effective to be referred to abrogation of verses within the Quran rather than abrogating older scriptures.

Another point:
Re abrogation I agree in some cases it is not a matter of making the older verses null and void. I believe in some cases the older verse is still applicable where the circumstances warrant it but the latest verse override ultimately if need be.

Views?
Thank you for this initiative

This is the answer
First, I offer explanations Muslims

Secondly, I speak Arabic
These interpretations since the beginning of Islam
I would like to offer you the following service
Not to say That is intended previous books
Because it means that she was in the hands of Mohammed

We ask that you verses that canceled the previous books
Are you able to accept these demands?????
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Old 05-26-2016, 01:50 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 660,434 times
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1-Rescinded his rule, but his suit and: - copied legally - to copy a verse of God, - {the copying of a Sign or Nnasseha distanced fine them or like}

سْخ : إبْطال2--- [LEFT]abolishment ; abolition ; abrogation ; annulment ; cancellation ; invalidation ; nullification ; repeal ; rescission ; revocation [/LEFT]
[RIGHT]نَسَخَ : أَبْطَلَ[/RIGHT]
[LEFT]weaving [/LEFT]

[RIGHT]
نَسَخ : حَلّ مَحَلّهُ[/RIGHT]
[LEFT]
replace ; supersede ; supplant ; take the place of
"What copying of verse or Nnasseha distanced fine them or similar. Did you know that God's power over all things?" (Al-Baqarah 2: 106); "
If we alter a verse in place of another and God knows what he reveals, they say: you skimped But most of them know not." (al-nahel 16: 101); "God abrogates what he wants and prove him or books" al-raed 13:39; Top 87: 6-8)
[/LEFT]
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Old 05-26-2016, 01:51 AM
 
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Cancellation of Quranic verses contrasted with the claim that the Qur'an: "No Changer words of God" (cattle 6: 34.115; Yunus 10: 64; Kahf 18:27); "It is a glorious Qur'an in a preserved tablet" al-brog 85: 21-22 ).
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Old 05-27-2016, 08:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Since the issue of abrogation in the Quran is a common topic, I will open a specific thread to discuss the various issues.
It is good that you are opening this topic. I have discussed it many times over the years in other forums. You are not the first one nor would be the last one to assume that there is abrogation of the verses within the Qur’an.

To me, it is crystal clear that claim of abrogation of the verses of the Qur’an by the other verses of the Qur’an is made only by those people (Muslims included) who do not ponder over the verses of the Qur’an and, therefore, fail to understand some verses of the Qur’an.

[38.29] (It is) a Book We have revealed to you abounding in good that they may ponder over its verses, and that those endowed with understanding may be mindful.

One must ponder over the verses of the Qur’an. Only those will mind who are endowed with understanding. Flying through the verses when reading fast, even 50+ times is not pondering over the verses but looking for something that is not there but is in one’s imagination only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As a Muslim and believer you have no choice but to sway to what suit your beliefs, insisting 2:106 refers to abrogation of the old scriptures rather that the verses [ayat] within the Quran.
Once again, you misunderstand what is stated just as you misunderstand what you read in the Qur’an. The Qur’an does not abrogate the older revelations but confirm them (5:48). A confirmation or verification is not abrogation of it all. I will come back to this point. It is vital that 5:48 is understood properly by pondering over it as to what exactly is revealed in this whole verse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
However the contexts of the Quran indicate otherwise.
Note 2:105 mentioned "nor do the polytheists" so it is not specific to Jews and Christians and their holy books.
None of them had liked anything being revealed to Muhammad. The Qur’an abrogated some verses of the previous revelations rejected the gods of polytheist. No wonder they did not like the revelation of the Qur’an!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Thus 2:106 is a general point in relation to any revelations from Allah which could be individual verse, set of verses or chapters.
It is regarding some verses of the previous scriptures (not the whole scriptures).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here are the verses related to abrogation[indent]2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?[indent]
It is good that at least 2:106 is accepted in one sense; Allah has power over all things and can extend the revelations from the Torah to the Injeel to the Qur’an. Now it’s time to ponder why the extension of the revelations from the Torah to the Injeel to the Qur’an.

Quote:
13:39 Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.
16:101 When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.
Exactly! Most of them understand not. Mother of the Book is not a written Book with Allah but the Book of knowledge with limitless words (18:109, 31:27).

Quote:
Note this argument from an ex-Muslim for abrogation related to verses rather than whole scriptures re The Problem of Abrogation in the Quran
There are four possibilities relating to the term 'abrogation' in the Quran, i.e.
• Muslim scholars of old hold to the concept that some ayahs in the Quran abrogate other ayahs in the Quran, but do not all hold to the same set of abrogated and abrogating ayahs.
• Other Muslim scholars are of the opinion that the Quran may abrogate the Quran as well as the Sunnah (deed or example of Mohammad) and vice versa.
• Some Muslim scholars hold that the Quran abrogates all the previous scriptures, specifically the scriptures sent to Musa and Isa, but not itself.
• Some Muslim scholars, especially of recent times do not believe in the concept of abrogation at all.
None of them is anything but lack of someone’s understanding of the Qur’an.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Faroog argued that 2:106, 13:39 and 16:101 are most effective in reference to the abrogation of the verses in the Quran rather than the whole scriptures like Torah or Injil. If Allah intended to abrogate the whole scriptures Allah would have used the term 'kitab' as used in similar contexts.
The Problem of Abrogation in the Quran
He argued that when the Quran refers to the Torah or Injil it use the term 'Kitab' but 2:106 refers to ayat (āyatin ءَايَةٍ ا ى ا ).
The Qur’an is also referred in the Qur’an as Kitab (Book). This argument is useless and in ignorance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are many cases in the Quran where abrogation need to be applied to enable the Quran to make sense.
That is ignorant person’s way of understanding the Qur’an; if you can’t understand the Qur’an then apply abrogation to it. What a way to ponder over the verses of the Qur’an!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
An example that is often used to show the topic of abrogation as relevant and true in the Quran is the topic of wine drinking.
In early Islam, wine drinking and gambling were allowed - Surah 2:219:
2:219They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-
This example proves only one thing; everything was allowed in the Qur’an even if it was neither promoted nor actually allowed through a command. It’s like saying that telling lies was allowed in the Qur’an until it was forbidden. LOL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From this ayah it was taught that drinking and gambling could provide a benefit and also have bad effects.
The Ayah says nothing about beneficial effects or bad effects but about profit (monetary) and sin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
To identify that the practice of drinking wine was not uncommon among Muslims, another ayah was revealed that forbade the Muslims to come to prayer drunk, Surah 4:43:
There was no verse that revealed they could be drunk at other times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Then the ayah Surah 5:93 was revealed to stop drinking wine since it is an abomination.
5:93 O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (Dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, - of Satan’s handiwork: Eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
Exactly! Even though you have the verse number wrong (5:93 instead of 5:90), it can only abrogate another verses in which it says that they could carry on getting drunk. There is none! So no question of abrogation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If the concept of abrogation is not introduced then it shows there are contradiction and confusions in the Quran.
Idea of abrogation, contradiction and confusion within the Qur'an is a result of lack of understanding of the Qur’an.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Therefore 2:106 refers to abrogation of the verses within the Quran rather than the whole scripture.
It refers to some verses of the previous revelations and not the whole of the previous revelations. Verses about the Sabbath (full day) for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In fact there is no abrogation of the Torah and Injil as mentioned in the Quran.
Agreed!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What actually happened was the Jews and Christians [as claimed by the Quran] corrupted the original revelations from Allah and thus these later corrupted versions of the scriptures are automatically not Islamic at all. There is no question of abrogation in this case.
No such claim is made in the Qur’an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are many verses in the Quran that necessitate the applications of abrogation to enable them to make sense otherwise the Quran will look bad, e.g.;
• Surah 9:29 abrogating Surah 2:109
• Surah 2:185 abrogating Surah 2:184
• Surah 9:36 abrogating Surah 2:217 and Surah 45:14
Only those apply abrogation to the Qur’an by the Qur’an whose understanding of the Qur’an is bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Therefore, since in contexts there are many cases where there are variations and contradictions in the Quran between certain sets of verses, examples given above, verse 2:106 is most effective to be referred to abrogation of verses within the Quran rather than abrogating older scriptures.
As no verse of the Qur’an has been forgotten, the abrogation in 2:106 can apply only to the verses of the previous revelations that have been forgotten or no longer needed such as Sabbath verses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Another point:
Re abrogation I agree in some cases it is not a matter of making the older verses null and void. I believe in some cases the older verse is still applicable where the circumstances warrant it but the latest verse override ultimately if need be.
No. All verses still apply rather than one overrides the other.
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Old 05-27-2016, 09:01 AM
 
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[quote=Khalif;44206651]It is good that you are opening this topic. I have discussed it many times over the years in other forums. You are not the first one nor would be the last one to assume that there is abrogation of the verses within the Qur’an.

To me, it is crystal clear that claim of abrogation of the verses of the Qur’an by the other verses of the Qur’an is made only by those people (Muslims included) who do not ponder over the verses of the Qur’an and, therefore, fail to understand some verses of the Qur’an.

[Who teaches Islamic law
He knew these jurisprudential Qaida
Diligence is forbidden in the text
you Should abide by the text
Do you know this rule of jurisprudence
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Old 05-27-2016, 09:31 AM
 
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Here is an example where the translator points to the abrogating verse:

2:240
Muhsin Khan
And those of you who die and leave behind wives should bequeath for their wives a year's maintenance and residence without turning them out, but if they (wives) leave, there is no sin on you for that which they do of themselves, provided it is honourable (e.g. lawful marriage). And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise. [The order of this Verse has been cancelled (abrogated) by Verse 4:12].
Surat Al-Baqarah [2:240] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????

4:12
Muhsin Khan
In that which your wives leave, your share is a half if they have no child; but if they leave a child, you get a fourth of that which they leave after payment of legacies that they may have bequeathed or debts. In that which you leave, their (your wives) share is a fourth if you leave no child; but if you leave a child, they get an eighth of that which you leave after payment of legacies that you may have bequeathed or debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of lagacies he (or she) may have bequeathed or debts, so that no loss is caused (to anyone). This is a Commandment [alert Woodrow] from Allah; and Allah is Ever All-Knowing, Most-Forbearing.
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Old 05-27-2016, 09:52 AM
 
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[quote=mahasn sawresho;44207299]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It is good that you are opening this topic. I have discussed it many times over the years in other forums. You are not the first one nor would be the last one to assume that there is abrogation of the verses within the Qur’an.

To me, it is crystal clear that claim of abrogation of the verses of the Qur’an by the other verses of the Qur’an is made only by those people (Muslims included) who do not ponder over the verses of the Qur’an and, therefore, fail to understand some verses of the Qur’an.

[Who teaches Islamic law
He knew these jurisprudential Qaida
Diligence is forbidden in the text
you Should abide by the text
Do you know this rule of jurisprudence
You must give us the position of the Muslim scholars
please not your opinion
In order for be useful dialogue

The oldest following proposal
and we Follow the following method
Write verse and translated her words
Then we show the opinions of Muslim jurists
Then we offer personal positions
are you accepted ?????

following this method in this topic????
Wait for your answer ---yes or no ????
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Old 05-27-2016, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Basically abrogation in the Qur'an is an erroneous concept caused by misunderstanding the words: Al-Nasekh and Al-Mansoukh. There is also the mistaken belief by some non-Muslims that newer Surat over-ride earlier Surat.

While it is true some earlier Surat had additional requirements added, they have not been replaced nor or they void. the best example is the Al-Nasekh regarding alcohol. First it was forbidden to pray in the Mosque if intoxicated. later it was added that is was forbidden to be intoxicated. It is still forbidden to be intoxicated in the Mosque. that has not been replaced nor voided. Next it was added any excessive drinking is forbidden, The previous 2 are not voided. Finaly any amount of alcohol consumption was forbidden. The previous ayyat were not replaced nor voided. This goes for every surat that have had an Al-naekh added.

There is also failure for people to understand that in Surat 9 ayyats 1-10 refer to a specific instance at a specific time.
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