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Old 06-05-2016, 06:27 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 663,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Depends on how one defines religion. The Arabic word De'en defines both religion and life. islam as a religion does not meet the English definition of Religion.

Islam means to submit fully to god(swt) to the best of ones ability and knowledge. Perfection is not required, to the best of one's ability is the criteria.

A person who has neither the knowledge or ability to know About Allaah(swt) is performing Islam to the best of their ability and as such is Muslim.
Definition of religion in the West is different from the definition of Islam to religion

This is true
West knows religion in it's a personal relationship between you and your Creator
Religion and spirituality
And noble values and lofty
Like love and peace
Christianity has has been a great role in this definition
God gave us the mind
The Creator has given us the mind
Nature has given us the mind
The mind is the essence of these labels
Aurbaaraf that freedom of religion does not believe in providing
It is this gap spread of Islam in Europe
Freedom, tolerance and love
These three words are not in the Islamic definition
Or Islamic knowledge as our friend says
This is a summary of the Western definition of a religion
But the Islamic definition to religion differs
Islam is the final bill to humanity and for people to follow Islam
For this reason does not recognize the Islamic mystical side of religion
Islam is religion and state
And is not a religion and life
There is a big difference between religion and state, and between religion and life
Islam intervene in the areas of life
Islam eliminates the mind
Islam does not believe in the freedom of Islam knows no tolerance
And it can prove this opinion from the Koran and history
I think that Europe should raise the alarm, America, Canada, India and China, but every man believes in freedom
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Old 06-05-2016, 10:02 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,587,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While it is true all people are born Muslim, we still have no way of knowing at what point they develop enough to be able to make a choice. At that moment in order to remain Muslim they would need to at a minimum make a concious effort to do what they can to submit to Allaah(swt) We do not know who is a Muslim, as we can not know at what point they have attained sufficient ability to choose of their own free will. Once they achieve even an iota of free will it is their responsibility to make a sincere choice.

Everything I know and understand makes me believe that no child below the age of 5 is capable of making a sincere informed choice. But I can not say I know as there can be exceptions to every thing, no how unlikely the exception might be.
You are making too many assumptions here.
E.g. point with humans is [despite almost all grow physically as adult] not all humans grow up with an adult mind.

Therefore,

When you insist all are born Muslims:
As with humans, once born a Muslim, one will always be a Muslim fundamentally.

The fact is the claim that all are born Muslim is a farce and false claim.
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Old 06-05-2016, 11:49 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,297,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are making too many assumptions here.
E.g. point with humans is [despite almost all grow physically as adult] not all humans grow up with an adult mind.

Therefore,

When you insist all are born Muslims:
As with humans, once born a Muslim, one will always be a Muslim fundamentally.

The fact is the claim that all are born Muslim is a farce and false claim.
In my opinion it means you do not know the definition of a Muslim. A Muslim is a person who submits to Allaah(swt) to the best of his ability. the need for "Ritual", Procedures" Requirements come with responsibility that develops as the individual matures and learns. No one is denied being muslim as long as they do not know how, for reasons beyond their control.

the "covenant" is only required if there is reason you know there is one. If for reasons beyond your control you have no way of knowing about a covenant nothing is required. Being Muslim is the default state of our creation. It only changes as we gain the ability to choose with sincerity and knowledge.
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Old 06-06-2016, 12:13 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,587,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
In my opinion it means you do not know the definition of a Muslim. A Muslim is a person who submits to Allaah(swt) to the best of his ability. the need for "Ritual", Procedures" Requirements come with responsibility that develops as the individual matures and learns. No one is denied being muslim as long as they do not know how, for reasons beyond their control.

the "covenant" is only required if there is reason you know there is one. If for reasons beyond your control you have no way of knowing about a covenant nothing is required. Being Muslim is the default state of our creation. It only changes as we gain the ability to choose with sincerity and knowledge.
On the contrary, I am very well verse with the full and technical definition of who is a Muslim.

A Muslim is a person who has entered into a covenant with Allah by affirming the shahada or its like and submitting [islam] to Allah.

A "covenant" is a term and merely implied by the process of submission and affirmation of the shahada or its essential elements.

This is a solid definition and there is no way you can find holes in this definition in the context of the whole Quran, Islam and reality.

On the other hand you are the one who had messed up the definition of a Muslim with the following contradictions as highlighted, i.e.

1. All are born Muslims then,
2. We do not know who is a Muslim.
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Old 06-06-2016, 05:10 AM
 
129 posts, read 72,606 times
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All I really see here is an argument that is destined not to be resolved because no one can agree on definitions.

To some, being a Muslim is active participation in a particular cultural or "religious" organization.
To others, being a Muslim is the natural state of Creation.

To some, "submission to God" means a personal worship of a deity specific to one cultural group.
To others, it means accepting one's place in the universe and living according to this knowledge.

To some, leaving Islam means renouncing participation in said cultural group. It's the outward expression that matters, and if he or she commits certain deeds or refrains from doing other deeds, they can be judged Muslim or not, or even be executed if they live in certain areas with laws about it.
To others, "leaving Islam" is the willful rejection of the natural order of things, due to obstinacy or pride, etc. It may or may not involve outward rejection of religious participation as well, but truly only God can know what lays inside someone's heart, so one cannot judge another person's stance.

People can go back and forth arguing about these topics without getting to the heart of the matter. Definitions need to be agreed upon first, I think, in order to be able to be on the same page.
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Old 06-06-2016, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,297,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
On the contrary, I am very well verse with the full and technical definition of who is a Muslim.

A Muslim is a person who has entered into a covenant with Allah by affirming the shahada or its like and submitting [islam] to Allah.

A "covenant" is a term and merely implied by the process of submission and affirmation of the shahada or its essential elements.

This is a solid definition and there is no way you can find holes in this definition in the context of the whole Quran, Islam and reality.

On the other hand you are the one who had messed up the definition of a Muslim with the following contradictions as highlighted, i.e.

1. All are born Muslims then,
2. We do not know who is a Muslim.
Point A is in Error. the covenant with Allaah(swt) can be one sided being only the promises of Allaah(swt) with no participation of the Muslim. Tthis will be in cases where the individual for any reason, not the individuals fault and beyond his control, is not capable of having knowledge of Allaah(swt) ot the ability to be a participant. Islam while being called a religion in english, does not meet the definition of religion. Iy is a De'en a word that has no English equivalent. You are trying to define Islam as a religion, and it does not meet the definition. When you try to pound a square peg into a round hole one or both gets deformed.

Participation on the individual's part is only required when the person is not incapacitated by choice, has the ability to sincerely submit to Allaah of his own free will and with full knowledge of what his choices are.


And we do not know who is a Muslim, we might be able to surmise a baby and an incapicitated person is, but we have no way of knowing for fact if they do not have the ability to make a free-will, sincere knowledgeable choice. We probably are correct in assuming a baby can't, but that is opinion and not provable fact. I believe all babies and people that are incapacitated by reasons not their fault, are Muslim. But that is my belief, I do not know.

While we do believe all babies are born Muslim,we do not know at what point they have the ability to reject being Muslim. It could be milliseconds after birth or it could be years. My opinion is it will be years, but that again is opinion, I can not sayI know.
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Old 06-06-2016, 07:13 AM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,093 posts, read 23,930,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
This is something many non-Muslims can not comprehend. they will state they can not have been a Muslim as they never joined Islam. SURPIZE--No one has ever Joined Islam, Not even Muhammad(saws). there is no such thing as joining Islam as it is not a church, religious denomination or any form of organization. Islam is the Act of submitting to god(swt) to the best of you abilityand knowledge. Every person who for any reason has no knowledge of Islam, through no fault of their own, is performing Islam to the best of their ability in accordance with the knowledge they have.

Everyone, including you, was born as a Muslim, and remain as such up until they reach the age of being able to make a free will choice.
I have always seen everyone as being born HUMAN. I really seriously DOUBT is God gives a care WHAT religion one is...
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Old 06-06-2016, 08:03 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Point A is in Error. the covenant with Allaah(swt) can be one sided being only the promises of Allaah(swt) with no participation of the Muslim. Tthis will be in cases where the individual for any reason, not the individuals fault and beyond his control, is not capable of having knowledge of Allaah(swt) ot the ability to be a participant. Islam while being called a religion in english, does not meet the definition of religion. Iy is a De'en a word that has no English equivalent. You are trying to define Islam as a religion, and it does not meet the definition. When you try to pound a square peg into a round hole one or both gets deformed.

Participation on the individual's part is only required when the person is not incapacitated by choice, has the ability to sincerely submit to Allaah of his own free will and with full knowledge of what his choices are.


And we do not know who is a Muslim, we might be able to surmise a baby and an incapicitated person is, but we have no way of knowing for fact if they do not have the ability to make a free-will, sincere knowledgeable choice. We probably are correct in assuming a baby can't, but that is opinion and not provable fact. I believe all babies and people that are incapacitated by reasons not their fault, are Muslim. But that is my belief, I do not know.

While we do believe all babies are born Muslim,we do not know at what point they have the ability to reject being Muslim. It could be milliseconds after birth or it could be years. My opinion is it will be years, but that again is opinion, I can not sayI know.
Much of what you post is just your opinion and when I research, or use common sense, I find you are wrong.

I (and others) have proven you wrong about all infants being Muslims.

Does De'en have a translation in English? Of course. There may not be one exact translation, but certainly the concept can and has been explained. Google it.

I agree that Islam is far more than a religion. The religion is actually a cover for the horrible underbelly of islam, which is totalitarianism. Islam is a geo-political system that has governmental, financial, military, legal and religious components. And it’s a totalitarian system. Not secular, not based on individual rights, not freedom based at all. Islam teaches that all countries should be Islamic theocracies. Look at how Muslim countries are run for proof.

This is why it is concerning that Muslims are immigrating to the USA. Their loyalty is to Islam, not our Constitution. And Islam is at odds with our constitution.

The countries in the West must be very careful that the forces of political Islam does not keep advancing it's demands for a worldwide submission to Islam. Islamic totalitarianism is now threatening the rest of the world like Marxist Communism and Nazism did.

This is a huge conversation that is just starting to take place on the world stage and if Trump is elected, and I think he will be, this may well be one of his central issues. Many in Europe are ready to join that conversation.

Islam: A Totalitarian Political Theocracy – Understanding Other Cultures - My Telegraph
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Old 06-06-2016, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,297,298 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
I have always seen everyone as being born HUMAN. I really seriously DOUBT is God gives a care WHAT religion one is...
Here we have a difference opinion as to what is meant by De'en, Muslim and Islam.


While Deen is usually translated into English as religion, it does not match the English definition of Religion. As no specific protocol is named. Islam simply means the act of submitting to God(swt) to the best of one's ability and knowledge.. As we are born Tabula Rasa, we have no knowledge. We therefore by default are in full submission to Allaah(swt( to our full ability and knowledge. We are performing Islam the best we can simply by being born. We do not acquire choices and the ability to not be submitting until after we acquire sufficient knowledge to make the free will choice. Until a person makes that choice they are Muslim. Now when that time comes, I have no way of knowing, It could be micro-seconds after birth or many years.
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Old 06-06-2016, 09:08 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 663,513 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Much of what you post is just your opinion and when I research, or use common sense, I find you are wrong.

I (and others) have proven you wrong about all infants being Muslims.

Does De'en have a translation in English? Of course. There may not be one exact translation, but certainly the concept can and has been explained. Google it.

I agree that Islam is far more than a religion. The religion is actually a cover for the horrible underbelly of islam, which is totalitarianism. Islam is a geo-political system that has governmental, financial, military, legal and religious components. And its a totalitarian system. Not secular, not based on individual rights, not freedom based at all. Islam teaches that all countries should be Islamic theocracies. Look at how Muslim countries are run for proof.

This is why it is concerning that Muslims are immigrating to the USA. Their loyalty is to Islam, not our Constitution. And Islam is at odds with our constitution.

The countries in the West must be very careful that the forces of political Islam does not keep advancing it's demands for a worldwide submission to Islam. Islamic totalitarianism is now threatening the rest of the world like Marxist Communism and Nazism did.

This is a huge conversation that is just starting to take place on the world stage and if Trump is elected, and I think he will be, this may well be one of his central issues. Many in Europe are ready to join that conversation.

Islam: A Totalitarian Political Theocracy Understanding Other Cultures - My Telegraph
Yes Islam is a colonial ideology
Islam is not a spiritual
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