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Old 06-08-2016, 07:19 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If I inform you now that I am a Muslim, based on average intelligence, you should doubt due to the circumstance and contexts surrounding my announcement due to the following;

1. See "Location" on the top right hand corner of my posts, it is stated 'Not-a-theist' and I have not changed it.
2. All the threads and posting I have raised and posted indicate I am not a Muslim.

Therefore even if you accept my declaration I am a Muslim you should take it as 0.001% probability and increase your confidence level if I changed "Location" to 'Theist' or 'Muslim'.
Then you will increase your confidence level and increase further based on the contents of my posts, even then your confidence level should be raised to say not more than 40%.
You will need to collect more evidence to increase further to say 50%, 60% but you can never reached a confidence level of 100% I am a Muslim.

Even with you I cannot be sure you are 100% a Muslim. You and Khalif could be pretending to be Muslims to post in this forum for whatever the reason.

It is only Allah [all knowing] who knows the real intention in your mind.


In the eyes of humans and not Allah;
Once a person says they are Muslim - we cannot accept them as a 100% true Muslim instantly but we have to place some confidence levels on our judgment based on the available evidence.
But in general once it is evident a person has declared and affirmed the Shahada we can say that person is a 51% Muslim until proven otherwise.
Then we gather other evidences to assess to what extent is the person a Muslim.

As I had stated in my earlier post, the most critical consideration to discuss whether a person is a Muslim or not is to be totally are of this two perspective and ensure we do not conflate them when present our views, i.e.

1. Muslim in the "eyes" of Allah and

2. Muslim in the "eyes" of humans in human society.


The above two perspectives are very critical to ensure our views make sense.

In the "eyes" of Allah, there is no issue because Allah is all-knowing.

In the 'eyes' of society then one need various social objective evidence but there is no 100% certainty a person is a genuine Muslim. Legally [where Islamic Law applies] then there are legal conditions to qualify one as a Muslim.

Agree there is no centralized authority to make any ultimate judgment for all Muslims.

But to decide who is a Muslim, we can rely on the Quran, i.e. the words of Allah to set a standard as to 'Who is a Muslim?'
It is obvious Allah has set the definition for Who is a Muslim.
It is obvious from the Quran, a person is a Muslim once the person has declared and affirm the Shahada [essentially that two critical elements] which implied submission as well.

What is Islamic Culture is not a significant issue.
What is critical is for a Muslim who has entered into a covenant [spiritual contract] with Allah to comply with all the relevant terms and conditions of the covenant which is in the Quran and no where else.

That is obvious because once any contract is signed the parties to the contract must comply to all the terms and conditions where applicable within that signed-contract and no where else. In a contract, if there are new conditions outside the existing contract, the parties concern must agree and sign for the changes.
In the case of covenant with Allah there is no room for changes to the covenant once it is agreed.
It is true you can not know if Kalif or Myself are Muslims. You can only know what we claim to be. Like wise I can not know if you reallyarean Atheist. You could be a super radical, fundementalist Christian trying to stir up animosity between Atheists and Muslims. I can only know what you say and claim, and believe in the accordance with what I see, but I have no way of actually knowing. I can only know what you claim.


If that is what defines a covenant, then it is an error to call the Relationship be between Allaah(swt and mankind by the English word Covenant. Actually the relationship is between Allaah(wt) even if the person does not believe in the existence of Allaah(swt).

Allaah(swt) has made a promise to all of Mankind that He will reward and punish all in accordance with their deeds. Even those that do not believe in His existence. He also promises that none will be punished for that which is not of their own informed, free will choice. but He will reward all for the good they do (The reward can be on earth, in the grave, in the hereafter or any combination)
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 06-08-2016 at 07:48 AM..
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Old 06-08-2016, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
6,884 posts, read 3,801,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A new born baby is as closs to being a perfect Muslim that a person can ever be.

To be Muslim a person must submit to Allaah(swt) to the best of their ability in accordance with their knowledge. A new born baby is doing so as the have no knowledge nor ability to perform Islam, by default they are doing the best they can.


No, as you said yourself babies are born without knowledge.

This makes the closest definition agnostic and atheist.


agnostic: a person who holds the view that any god is unknown and unknowable.

atheist: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
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Old 06-08-2016, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,591,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It is true you can not know if Kalif or Myself are Muslims. You can only know what we claim to be. Like wise I can not know if you really are an Atheist. You could be a super radical, fundementalist Christian trying to stir up animosity between Atheists and Muslims. I can only know what you say and claim, and believe in the accordance with what I see, but I have no way of actually knowing. I can only know what you claim.

If that is what defines a covenant, then it is an error to call the Relationship be between Allaah(swt and mankind by the English word Covenant. Actually the relationship is between Allaah(wt) even if the person does not believe in the existence of Allaah(swt).

Allaah(swt) has made a promise to all of Mankind that He will reward and punish all in accordance with their deeds. Even those that do not believe in His existence. He also promises that none will be punished for that which is not of their own informed, free will choice. but He will reward all for the good they do (The reward can be on earth, in the grave, in the hereafter or any combination)
There you go again with the shortsightedness.

Allah stated Allah created humans and jinns to serve Allah.
This I acknowledge, thus there is already a pre-existing relationship between Allah and humans in that specific term that Allah created humans and made certain unilateral threats and warning of Hell.

However, [you also acknowledge above] Allah made certain promises [offers] to humans.
These promises and commitments of Allah will only be fulfilled by Allah IF the person accept Allah's offers and fulfil the terms and conditions of the covenant.
Offer and acceptance is the basic elements of a contract and in the case of Allah, it is called a covenant.
Note the element of 'covenant' is expressed in the Quran many times.

Note I am very familiar with the Principles of the Law of Contract and this is universal even within the spiritual where the equivalent of a contract is a covenant.
Therefore the issue here is not the English word 'covenant' but we must discuss the intended universal referent by the Principles of the Law of Contract regardless the language used, legal or otherwise, etc..

Read this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
Offer and acceptance are elements required for the formation of a legally binding contract: the expression of an offer to contract on certain terms by one person (the "offeror") to another person (the "offeree"), and an indication by the offeree of its acceptance of those terms.
The other elements traditionally required for a legally binding contract are (i) consideration and (ii) an intention to be legally bound.
In this case, Allah made the "offer" [promises] and it is up to the person to "accept" and then become a believer and is thus obliged to comply with the terms and conditions of the covenant [contract].

Your problem is you tend to conflate significant elements and thus create confusions and then made conclusions out of confusions, thus giving confusing conclusions.
I am a very analytical person and I always try to analyze the issue appropriately and thus arrive at sound and justifiable objective conclusions.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
No, as you said yourself babies are born without knowledge.

This makes the closest definition agnostic and atheist.


agnostic: a person who holds the view that any god is unknown and unknowable.

atheist: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
Except a baby does not have free will. They are born in a state of full submission with no ability to deny Allaah(swt) until the reach the age of awareness and have the ability to choose by they own choice and with knowledge, they are Muslim
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:45 PM
 
9,364 posts, read 9,265,484 times
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Au contraire - everyone is born an atheist.
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Old 06-10-2016, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cida View Post
Au contraire - everyone is born an atheist.
immaterial. they are acting in full submission to Allaah(swt) simply by having been born. They do not have free will, free choice or even the knowledge of how to make a choice. Basicall the same as Angels, without the ability to choose to believe or not believe.
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Old 06-10-2016, 06:57 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,999 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
immaterial. they are acting in full submission to Allaah(swt) simply by having been born. They do not have free will, free choice or even the knowledge of how to make a choice. Basicall the same as Angels, without the ability to choose to believe or not believe.
Worms, chickens, fleas, cockroaches....all muslims.
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Old 06-10-2016, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Worms, chickens, fleas, cockroaches....all muslims.
Yes, like all life forms. they also have purpose, even if we don't like them. It is accurate to say that all living creatures are created to submit to Allaah(swt) but as far as we know only Angels, Djinn and Human's are created to live ofrever and only Humans and Djinn have free will.
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Old 06-10-2016, 08:07 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,999 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Yes, like all life forms. they also have purpose, even if we don't like them. It is accurate to say that all living creatures are created to submit to Allaah(swt) but as far as we know only Angels, Djinn and Human's are created to live ofrever and only Humans and Djinn have free will.
Proclaim power over everything that exists and if the vast majority that can choose later chooses to hit the road, then torture them for eternity and brag about it. Nice game plan.

Actually, it's much worse. Those that do choose to follow allah have a nasty time of it. Horrible poverty, violence, inbreeding, slaughtering each other, the illiteracy, the slavery, the abuse of women, the violations of individual rights, backwardness, honor killings, sex with children, etc, etc....so ugly. So needless.
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Old 06-13-2016, 07:27 AM
 
17,297 posts, read 25,733,100 times
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Ew, shudder the thought. So is there like a reverse Shahada one can do to renounce it, or what?
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