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Old 06-17-2016, 12:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Yu are assuming Islam refers only to an Ideology. that does not occur until a person has the capability of making a free-will choice. Before then a person is still performing Islam to the best of their ability and knowledge. A person will not be considered to be a non-Muslim until they have the ability to not be one. If Christianity were true you would be correct as most Christians believe all people are born in a state of sin and destined for eternal damnation unless they are saved. In Islam we believe all people are born pure and sinless and destined for heaven until their own choices are the refusal to submit to Allaah(swt) It takes free choice and knowledge to deliberatly refuse to submit (perform Islam) until a person makes that choice of their own free will and with knowledge, they are submitting to the best of their ability and knowledge. Perfection is not required only what a person is capable of.Islam does not teach that a person incapable of performing Islam will be judged for such. They are Muslim by default until they them self can choose differently. No actions or ituals or "joining" required. (Until they have the ability to choose.
Who taught you this talk ????

Do you understand the meaning of original sin ????
Yes, the original sin spin with us until the day of resurrection
I and you and Muhammad produced the sin
Results of rebellion against God was expelled from paradise
After their expulsion from paradise
They have sex is the practice multiplication of human offspring
And all human beings are the product of a sexual act
The marriage is a religious cover for the act
So the child is the product of the act
If you go back to the origin of the product it will find that the original act
But baby comes pure and innocent
The proof of my words is the words of Jesus Christ and children of the kingdom
Since you claim that you're a Christian, formerly
Read from the Gospel of Matthew 18
Matthew 18New International Version (NIV)

The Greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven

18 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.
The same meaning in Luke and Mark,
Is there in the words of the ( Q)Koran in this sense ????
And i will continue to respond at a later time
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Old 06-17-2016, 12:29 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 660,944 times
Reputation: 204
Offer you a dialogue from the book named Mtarhat QRANEA which has been printed at the beginning of the century
nineteenth
Sura: "And then we Aaadm dwell you and your spouse Paradise and both of them Rgda where Hitma not this nigh
Tree lest ye become oppressors. Vozlhma devil Vokhrjhma them than they were in it and they said Ahptoa
One to another enemy and you land in a stable and belongings in a while. "(Sura 2: 35-36).
This includes the verse:
(1) Adam housing and Wife paradise absolutely unrestricted a time. Verse said: "We told you shuffled Aaadm
And your spouse Paradise. "If the devil did not Azlhma by the survival of their progeny with the immortal. Had their home paradise for a limited period, Sknhma Like in the ground, specifically for the Jazz in the first also came in
The second said: "The land you in a stable and belongings in a while."
(2) The full obedience to sire condition Sknhma paradise, has Nhahma eating from "the tree." He said: "not nigh this tree lest ye become oppressors" any disobedient. When he sticks Rabhma Osgaa and the devil on I swear to God that those who are mentors, and ate from the tree, which told them the devil she mole tree, issued divine for them to land. Had they Otaa to safer and more peaceful. But it is God was res judicata.
Maqublah continued ..
(3) they were in the case of eating from the tree and the prospect of retribution (which is a denial of paradise, at least)
Two deputies all their offspring, as evidenced by the words of the verse "Ahptoa one to another and you land in a stable and belongings in a while."
If that were directed to speak to the man and his wife came to the Muthanna "Ahpta. Bedkma. But as" The formula has come
The plural is evident that it was directed to them with their offspring. And we have another guide, a repetition of this phrase
Then in verse that: "Then Adam received from his Lord words turned to him that he is the Relenting, the Merciful. We said Ahptoa
All Fama Iotenkm Mona Huda whoever follows My guidance no fear nor shall they grieve "(Sura 2: 37-3.
Is evident that Bary said Adam Wife and two deputies for their progeny.
Upon further proof of which is that the hostility has not mentioned located between Adam and his wife, but they occurred between their children, the
The larger the smaller killed.
"On behalf of all descendants of Adam is the crux of the matter in this verse, which is an established fact when the people of the Torah and the people of the Gospel,
They also fixed our We the people of the Qur'an. No escape from the delivery, whatever the outcome. What is the best known
It came in three books, including not given room for doubt in it. It saw provable and recognition as the rest of the Quranic truths to be learned and the education. Above Vhatwa what you have in support of the right and Azhaca
The void. "
Stop Sheikh Badr SNOUSSI said:
"I do not escape from the face of evidence that came to him Sheikh Hareedy, and the shrine of Islam is not afraid to prove prosecutors
To Adam for his descendants, but rather reinforced verse Almtarahh including and not the strength it Argumentative, the witness of fact in
Mahsusat-speaking world to do so. Fixed that Adam and his wife forbade Rahman so approached an infringement of the tree
They were told "not nigh this tree." The steady rhythm that is Qsasma enmity and death, it has been suggested
"Some of you of some of the enemy," which is useful hostility. And was told, "and you land in a stable and belongings in a while," a
What Denying immortality on earth, but death openly, and today we find descendants of Adam bear it retribution
The same hostility and death, a punishment of sin that is not committed by the hands of Adam and Wife. Here we can only
As a result of two things:
(1) Either that Adam and his wife were deputies for their progeny, offspring shall subscribe with his deputy at the prospect of retribution
Just, really.
(2) or that Adam and his wife did not Enoba for birth control, so the occurrence of the punishment of the sin of Adam was not involved with injustice
Zahir. Almighty God, far above all access without, it is the fairest ruling. The conclusion that the prosecution constant. Evidence
Offspring participate in the punishment of the sin of Adam.
"As our friend guide Sheikh Naji Vokhalh is just about as famous for his presence of logical dexterity
Dating back to astonish their hearers. However, I respectfully to his abundant evidence for mental refute his ideals, he
It does not Mnob where behalf (that's right). He said he found Mnob must be on the part of the minor or
Accused. This philosophy
And the first to say that God is the one who Nob Adam and his wife for their progeny evidence issued retribution on birth control,
Prosecutors and fixed right under the measure the presence of Sheikh al-Fadil. And to the second opinion, it is that there must be Almnob
By the minor or the accused, it is not understood the necessity of a MP from nearly the accused as a minor
Elected the philosophy of Sheikh Naji. Has attended all issues legacies we have seen where the guardians of a minor who is
His relatives kept him right from his family and relatives. Becomes a guardian (a foreigner for the minor) standing at his side,
Him what him and it what it is. As well as he had Nob Rahman Adam for his descendants.
"We then if we look at the case of Adam (PBUH) against the conditions of his descendants, including those of the prophets
The faithful apostles and the mujahideen, we will find Evdilhm preferred by the father and son originally branch and all
Its part, so Adam was good and Wife of reconciliation on behalf of mind for birth control.
"As the court has the right to evaluate the guardian of a minor without taking his opinion, Vllkhalq all right
Reckoned without the other two deputies for birth control. It is that although he does not ask what he does, all his works
Ab Justice Unlimited
he Sheikh Naji guide Vadfh in kind. He said that Adam repented and forgiveness and repentance before God
Evidenced by saying: "Then Adam received from his Lord turned to him words he Relenting, the Merciful." Thereby raising
Adam is signed by the provisions of the preceding verse. He said that this verse lifted from his seed (assuming
Deputation him) what got him where the rule of the previous verse of hostility and death. But if God had wiped out
Adam's sin and repented him and forgive him, what is the meaning of the verse in the third verse, "said Ahptoa
All of them either Iotenkm Mona Huda whoever follows My guidance no fear nor shall they grieve and who
Disbelieve and deny Our revelations, those owners of the Fire "(Sura 2: 38-39). What is the meaning of forgiveness
With the determination to inflict punishment on the guilty? What is the meaning of repentance accept with no admission Arjaahma
to heaven? Are we not yet afford the same hostility that retribution and death, then we are not Adam, save us
From carrying the punishment of sin it has been said that our father Adam repented for and accepted his repentance. Yes Adam received from his Lord
Words, but Who would dare to set forth, and our Quran Karim characters did not mention them? Why
Strive breath as we can not afford him to interpret the words that only God knows only.
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Old 06-17-2016, 12:33 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Yu are assuming Islam refers only to an Ideology. that does not occur until a person has the capability of making a free-will choice. Before then a person is still performing Islam to the best of their ability and knowledge. A person will not be considered to be a non-Muslim until they have the ability to not be one. If Christianity were true you would be correct as most Christians believe all people are born in a state of sin and destined for eternal damnation unless they are saved. In Islam we believe all people are born pure and sinless and destined for heaven until their own choices are the refusal to submit to Allaah(swt) It takes free choice and knowledge to deliberatly refuse to submit (perform Islam) until a person makes that choice of their own free will and with knowledge, they are submitting to the best of their ability and knowledge. Perfection is not required only what a person is capable of.Islam does not teach that a person incapable of performing Islam will be judged for such. They are Muslim by default until they them self can choose differently. No actions or ituals or "joining" required. (Until they have the ability to choose.
Complete hogwash. An infant isn't performing anything except looking for a nipple. There is no "submitting to the best of their ability and knowledge." There is no submitting, there is no ability and there is no knowledge. None. Zip. Zero. Not there. Blank slate. No one home. Lights out.

More than that, your entire premise rests on a false assumption, that some supernatural creature exists and created the universe and picked a pedophile terrorist as his prophet and wrote a book full of terrible threats.

It's just nonsense. The whole mess rests on totally false metaphysical principles and falls apart completely when correct metaphysics (like the law of identity) is applied.

Do you believe in the easter bunny? Tooth fairy? Boogy man? Zombies? Flying elephants? The headless horseman? Superman? These rest on the same false metaphysical principles. Accept one supernatural bit of nonsense and you open the door to all of them.
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Old 06-17-2016, 12:34 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 660,944 times
Reputation: 204
Follow what before ...

"The words I attended distortive, from the obligation to plead Bhafee year begins intercession of slip Adam,
Fearing that this affects the shrine of Prophet (PBUH), this would make the passengers wonder if he will succeed to
Bridge crosses it, and that was the Qantara sound tough or scary, even his heart was filled with terrifying
And shuddering. But by necessity remained in the biography until he reached the arch, and found about what he likes!
Fbrha laughing at the many misgivings and Osawsh which hogged it all the way.
"We have to recognize the truth because it is true, wise and by the facts and underwent its results. The
Our fear only a few looked at the issues that we are used to accept without examination only in add to their wording and disbursement
And the like and Mjazha and Knayatha, Sarven of their stand on the essence of truth in it.
"The saying about the plural it expand the formula, this is a weak point easy to be answered
The key to talk. Koran commentators were unanimous in considering directing a verse: "Ahptoa" to Adam and his descendants.
It is my belief that he did not expand those governing land retribution. And retribution and veneration opposites do not mix.
"The conclusion I have proved that the Koran on behalf of the descendants of Adam, and proven involvement in birth control
The punishment of the sin of Adam, and this is what is inevitable to admit it. "

-5-

Having sat Sheikh Badr minted four scientists, and the truth is reflected strongly in the positive proof
The center of that area of ​​the forest, which they accepted and were subjected to the power of her beauty and favored respected, the Vojmawa
Support of the case and said: "I saw the Koran's Procuratorate Adam for his offspring, he is to him, and it what it is".

-6-

Sheikh Manfalouty and stop asking: "Is it prevents the mind wants to be with us from our fellow scientists?"
He said: "I do not mind, we accept all Fadel very welcome to." He asked: "What will be the subject of
Almtarahh following God willing? ". Hareedy Sheikh said:" The theme of "General intercessor." And verse
Almtarahh is quoted as saying: "who claimed Zaamthm without God do not have the weight of an atom in the heavens or
In the land of Ham and the two of gin and them back to him would not be used to intercede with Him except those authorized
Him "(Surah Saba 34: 22-23) and is given the presidency Almtarahh of Hazrat Sheikh Naji Moroccan."
People drinking coffee and went out and in the souls Dlailha things appeared on their faces, which made me expect
The occurrence of what is not in the mind, and I said: "God is before and after." The dates of the meeting I cut them to the
What of my readers have ordered these scientists.
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Old 06-17-2016, 12:36 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 660,944 times
Reputation: 204
"The saying about the plural it expand the formula, this is a weak point easy to be answered
The key to talk. Koran commentators were unanimous in considering directing a verse: "Ahptoa" to Adam and his descendants.
It is my belief that he did not expand those governing land retribution. And retribution and veneration opposites do not mix.
"The conclusion I have proved that the Koran on behalf of the descendants of Adam, and proven involvement in birth control
The punishment of the sin of Adam, and this is what is inevitable to admit it. "
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Old 06-17-2016, 12:38 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 660,944 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Complete hogwash. An infant isn't performing anything except looking for a nipple. There is no "submitting to the best of their ability and knowledge." There is no submitting, there is no ability and there is no knowledge. None. Zip. Zero. Not there. Blank slate. No one home. Lights out.

More than that, your entire premise rests on a false assumption, that some supernatural creature exists and created the universe and picked a pedophile terrorist as his prophet and wrote a book full of terrible threats.

It's just nonsense. The whole mess rests on totally false metaphysical principles and falls apart completely when correct metaphysics (like the law of identity) is applied.

Do you believe in the easter bunny? Tooth fairy? Boogy man? Zombies? Flying elephants? The headless horseman? Superman? These rest on the same false metaphysical principles. Accept one supernatural bit of nonsense and you open the door to all of them.
Excuse me, I just respond to him
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Old 06-17-2016, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
6,862 posts, read 3,783,816 times
Reputation: 4594
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Being Muslim is not membership in something. It is an action or inaction if the person through no choice of their own, has no knowledge of God(swt).
Atheism is not a membership in something.
Your entire statement describes atheism.

Quote:
If the person has knowledge of God(swt) it is the action of consciously submitting to Him.
But the infant has no knowledge of god = atheism.


Quote:
If the person has no knowledge of God(swt) it is the state of being until the person can make an informed free-will decision.
Atheism.

Quote:
Islam is not something one joins. There is no excommunication as there is nothing one joined to get kicked out of.
Again, same goes for atheism.
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Old 06-17-2016, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Complete hogwash. An infant isn't performing anything except looking for a nipple. There is no "submitting to the best of their ability and knowledge." There is no submitting, there is no ability and there is no knowledge. None. Zip. Zero. Not there. Blank slate. No one home. Lights out.

More than that, your entire premise rests on a false assumption, that some supernatural creature exists and created the universe and picked a pedophile terrorist as his prophet and wrote a book full of terrible threats.

It's just nonsense. The whole mess rests on totally false metaphysical principles and falls apart completely when correct metaphysics (like the law of identity) is applied.

Do you believe in the easter bunny? Tooth fairy? Boogy man? Zombies? Flying elephants? The headless horseman? Superman? These rest on the same false metaphysical principles. Accept one supernatural bit of nonsense and you open the door to all of them.
There are many things in this world one submits to without knowing or understanding.

We all submit to the laws of physics even babies that have no knowledge of them.

Our first act of submission to Allaah(swt) was our being born. So yes we all submit fully to Allaah(swt0 just as we submit to the laws of physics. But, with Allaah(swt) we can reach a point we can choose not to submit.

One does not believe until one has found reason to believe, Just as a [hysicist does not believe in the the laws of thermodynamyc until he himself has found verification.

We humans and all other physical beings and objects are limited to that which we can observe. But that is not prof that the physical universe is all there is.

When we keep our self locked into the belief that only that which can be measured, quantified and qualified is what exists, we have not found reason to believe beyond the physical realm. The fact we do not have the physical means to prove something exists is not prove it does not exist.

Some intersting concepts of existence are opening up by scientists that think beyond physical limitations.

Quote:
Pocket universes

Modern cosmology theory holds that our universe may be just one in a vast collection of universes known as the multiverse. MIT physicist Alan Guth has suggested that new universes (known as “pocket universes”) are constantly being created, but they cannot be seen from our universe.

In this view, “nature gets a lot of tries — the universe is an experiment that’s repeated over and over again, each time with slightly different physical laws, or even vastly different physical laws,” says Jaffe.
Life beyond our universe | MIT News


Abstract

Multiverse scenarios in cosmology assume that other universes exist "beyond" our own universe. These scenarios post an exciting challenge for empirical and theoretical research as well as for philosophy of science. The construct of the multiverse could be necessary to understand why the big bang occurred, why (some of) the laws of nature and the values of certain physical constants are the way they are, and why there is an arrow of time. This paper clarifies competing notions of "universe" and "multiverse"; it proposes a classification of different multiverse types according to various aspects of how the universes are or are not separated from each other; it reviews the main reasons for assuming the existence of other universes including the empirical evidence, theoretical explanations, and philosophical arguments; and, finally, it argues that some attempts to criticize multiverse scenarios as "unscientific", insisting on a narrow understanding of falsification, is neither appropriate nor convincing from a philosophy of science point of view. Key Words: big bang, universe, multiverse, cosmic inflation, time, quantum gravity, string theory, laws of nature, physical constants, fine-tuning, anthropic principle, philosophy of science, metaphysics, falsificationism
Cosmology
So it becomes in the field of theology. When one faces the concept of a creator that exists beyond the physical realm, what are some methods that may have occured for Him to have made His presense known? While these concepts are not unique to Islam some of these methods are:

1. The creation of non-physical beings with the capability of entering the physical real (Angels)

2. The non-physical influence of innate messages created withing some humans (Prohets)

3.The non-physical communication through thought (inspiration)


Quote:
1. The cosmological evidence

Evidence has been mounting for many years suggesting we live in a finite universe — all space, time, and matter had a beginning. But if the universe has a “beginning,” what “began” it? Physicists are now searching for the vastly powerful, non-material, a-temporal, non-spatial cause of the universe, and most have conceded this cause must exist “outside” the natural realm.

2. The biological evidence

The development and diversity of life is typically explained scientifically through some process of neo-Darwinian evolution, but the transformation from non-living chemicals to the first, most primitive forms of life (a process known as “chemical evolution”) is still a complete mystery.

3. The mental evidence

As humans, we are aware of our existence and a variety of mental states (thoughts, beliefs, desires, volitions, and sensations). The question, “What’s on your mind?” makes sense because we recognize we have private, immaterial thoughts we can share. We think, believe, recall, desire, and emote.

4. The moral evidence

Each of us feels a certain obligation to “moral duty” — an intuitive sense of moral “oughtness.” We recognize some things are right and others are wrong, regardless of culture, time, or location.

4 Evidences for A God-Created Universe - OnFaith
While physical evidence can not be used as a means of validating the existence of good, one can look at the effects and evaluate the possibility of a cause beyond the physical realm. A recnt verification that all the matter in the physical universe came into being within one trillionth of a second. gives thought to ponder

Quote:
It’s the most exciting discovery in cosmology for 25 years, said theoretical physicist Lawrence Krauss of Arizona State University, who was not involved with the project. If the evidence of gravitational waves is confirmed, the discovery “gives us a window on the universe at the very beginning,” when it was less than one-trillionth of a second old, he told the Associated Press.
“If you want to know where did we come from, this is it,” Krauss told NewsHour. “We are the products of that burst in empty space.”
Scientists find 'smoking gun' evidence from the creation of the universe | PBS NewsHour
Not proof, but in line with what one would expect if the physical universe was created by the "Will of a Creator"

I doubt if anyone can give verifiable "Proof" God(swt) exists, but we can each search and see if we can find evidence of reason for our beliefs.
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Old 06-17-2016, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
6,862 posts, read 3,783,816 times
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Woodrow, if just being born is enough to make you a Muslim, and your god is fine with that, then you can take away all your mosques, stop praying and stop worshipping your god because they are all redundant.

And you'd be happy with that? I doubt it.

Very clearly being a Muslim is about far more than just existing.
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Old 06-17-2016, 07:55 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
Woodrow, if just being born is enough to make you a Muslim, and your god is fine with that, then you can take away all your mosques, stop praying and stop worshipping your god because they are all redundant.

And you'd be happy with that? I doubt it.

Very clearly being a Muslim is about far more than just existing.
However, as we increase in knowledge and gain free-choice our responsibilities increase.

Being a Muslim is a life time of ever increasing responsibilities.

We are to submit to Allaah(swt) in accordance with our ability and knowledge.

We begin with a blank page and there fore have no respnsibility and no effort is required on our part. But we do not usually stay babies, we grow and mature and learn along with that comes responsibility.

A baby requires food, but he has no responsibility in providing it.
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