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Old 06-17-2016, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
6,881 posts, read 3,799,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
However, as we increase in knowledge and gain free-choice our responsibilities increase.

Being a Muslim is a life time of ever increasing responsibilities.



We begin with a blank page and there fore have no respnsibility and no effort is required on our part. But we do not usually stay babies, we grow and mature and learn along with that comes responsibility.

A baby requires food, but he has no responsibility in providing it.


Answer me this question:

Do you need to believe in God to be a Muslim? Yes or no?



If the answer is yes, then your baby is not a Muslim, it's atheist.

If the answer is no, then your baby is an atheist.


You can't say your baby does not believe in god but is a Muslim. That's just changing your own rules as you go along. That's trying to have your cake and eat it.

You are projecting your own indoctrinated ideals onto an infant with no knowledge of god or your religion.
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Old 06-17-2016, 08:27 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 665,173 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
However, as we increase in knowledge and gain free-choice our responsibilities increase.

Being a Muslim is a life time of ever increasing responsibilities.

We are to submit to Allaah(swt) in accordance with our ability and knowledge.

We begin with a blank page and there fore have no respnsibility and no effort is required on our part. But we do not usually stay babies, we grow and mature and learn along with that comes responsibility.

A baby requires food, but he has no responsibility in providing it.
We want to prove from the(Q) Koran
I made you words of the Gospel
You claim that you that you worship God, but you actually worship the Black Stone in Mecca
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Old 06-17-2016, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
Answer me this question:

Do you need to believe in God to be a Muslim? Yes or no?



If the answer is yes, then your baby is not a Muslim, it's atheist.

If the answer is no, then your baby is an atheist.


You can't say your baby does not believe in god but is a Muslim. That's just changing your own rules as you go along. That's trying to have your cake and eat it.

You are projecting your own indoctrinated ideals onto an infant with no knowledge of god or your religion.
Do you need to believe in God to be a Muslim? Yes or no?

No if the disbelief is not because anything the individual has done. A person is not excluded from being a Muslim because of things they have no control over. However, once a person has the ability to believe and the knowledge to do so, it is the first step required for them to be a Muslim.

It is a moot point as we believe Babies are born with an innate, rudimentary belief in Allaah(swt) although they probably have no comprehension what it means. We also believe all people were given the choice of being born or not being born.
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Old 06-17-2016, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
6,881 posts, read 3,799,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Do you need to believe in God to be a Muslim? Yes or no?

No if the disbelief is not because anything the individual has done. A person is not excluded from being a Muslim because of things they have no control over. However, once a person has the ability to believe and the knowledge to do so, it is the first step required for them to be a Muslim.

It is a moot point as we believe Babies are born with an innate, rudimentary belief in Allaah(swt) although they probably have no comprehension what it means. We also believe all people were given the choice of being born or not being born.

You don't need to DO anything to be atheist either.

Do you think that if a group of children and parents lived in isolation, away from religious indoctrination they would all somehow turn into Muslims of their own accord?

You are introducing requirements that would not take place without religious indoctrination.
You are introducing required steps to take place in order to now be a Muslim.

This is very specific to your own belief and religion. As I said before you are projecting your own indoctrinated beliefs onto an otherwise blank slate.
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Old 06-17-2016, 10:21 AM
 
2,826 posts, read 1,869,857 times
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Maybe this is true. But you should really consider what it means to be a Muslim.

Why Islam is Not a Religion > Rebecca Bynum

It means to be a disturbed secular atheist who believes in a god in name only. Everyone may be born without religion. In fear of djinn or spirits, superstition, and believe that a book is somehow more important than one's soul.

But as we mature, some of us seek after higher principles. Stuff like truth or love, treating others justly. My soul is more important that my body. You cannot destroy me by raping or killing me. This is what it means to believe in a God rather than a god.
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Old 06-17-2016, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
You don't need to DO anything to be atheist either.

Do you think that if a group of children and parents lived in isolation, away from religious indoctrination they would all somehow turn into Muslims of their own accord?

You are introducing requirements that would not take place without religious indoctrination.
You are introducing required steps to take place in order to now be a Muslim.

This is very specific to your own belief and religion. As I said before you are projecting your own indoctrinated beliefs onto an otherwise blank slate.
A peg in an isolated part of the world, with y of having any knowledge of the Qur'an or Muhammad(saws) would still be a Muslim by defaults they are sug to Allaah(swt) to the best of their ability in accordance with their limited knowledge.

Upon death a person who has never had the opportunity to learn of Islam will be given a final chance to refuse Islam

Quote:
Anyone who has not received the Da`wah (Invitation to Islaam) in the life of this world and died ignorant of the truth will be tested on the Day of Resurrection, according to the most correct opinion maintained by scholars. If they succeed (by accepting the truth), they will be admitted into Paradise. But if they oppose the truth, they will be cast into Hellfire.

This applies to all people categorized as Ahl-ul-Fatrah who have not received Da`wah.

The proof of this is in the following verse:

17:15 ...And never would We punish until We sent a messenger..

Moreover,

Imaam Ahmad in his Musnad (16301) said:

Allaah's Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) said: "Four will have proofs (in their favor) on the Day of Standing: (1) A deaf man who could not hear anything; (2) a fool (who could not understand anything); (3) a feebly old man; and (4) a man who died in the fatrah (the period between prophets). As for the deaf man, then he will say: 'My Lord, Islaam came and I did not hear anything.' And as for the fool, then he will say, 'My Lord, Islaam came and the children were throwing dung at me.' And as for the feebly old man, then he will say, 'My Lord, Islaam came and I did not understand anything.' And as for the one who died in the fatrah (period between prophets), then he will say, 'My Lord, no messenger from you came to me.' So He (Allaah) will take oaths from them that they will obey Him (in what He is about to request from them), so it (an order) will be sent to them: 'Enter the Fire!' And verily by Him in whose Hand is my soul, if they entered it, it will be cool and soothing."
imaan - What is the fate of someone who died never having heard of Islam? - Islam Stack Exchange
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Old 06-17-2016, 11:32 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,044,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
You claim that you that you worship God, but you actually worship the Black Stone in Mecca
Woodrow is not lying but you are; again.
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Old 06-17-2016, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
6,881 posts, read 3,799,289 times
Reputation: 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A peg in an isolated part of the world, with y of having any knowledge of the Qur'an or Muhammad(saws) would still be a Muslim by defaults they are sug to Allaah(swt) to the best of their ability in accordance with their limited knowledge.

Upon death a person who has never had the opportunity to learn of Islam will be given a final chance to refuse Islam

So let me get this straight. According to what you just said:

A guy born into a remote Amazonian tribe is Muslim by default.
He whiles his life away minding his own business, then on death he is offered the opportunity to learn of Islam and if he doesn't he's thrown into hellfire?
Even though, by your criteria he's actually lived his life as a Muslim?
The choice is ... believe this doctrine or else face an eternity in hell ... Not really much of choice is it?


Woodrow, you are bright person. You cannot in all seriousness believe all this.


EDIT: You know Christianity says much the same thing. Accept Christ or go to hell.

It's a loving god though....
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Old 06-17-2016, 12:47 PM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,044,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
Do you think that if a group of children and parents lived in isolation, away from religious indoctrination they would all somehow turn into Muslims of their own accord?
A Muslim is someone who obeys command from God.

A baby is born obeying the command of God ("Be"). The command "Be" is spiritual. Without this "spirit", a baby cannot exist as a living being. Therefore, a baby is regarded as Muslim because his birth/coming into existence as living being was due to the command of God.

Later in life, when s/he is able to make informed decisions, and is responsible for his/her actions, and hears about further commands from God, s/he can be either a believer or an unbeliever. A believer, who obeys further commands from God, remains a Muslim. If s/he disobeys further commands from God, s/he is no longer a Muslim but unbeliever and munkar (opposite of Muslim).

A person is not unbeliever if s/he hasn't heard about God. Such a person is not going to be punished by God as s/he hasn't disobeyed God.

This is why it is good for someone to not even hear any further command from God in his/her adult life than read the whole Qur'an 50+ times and still not obey the commands.
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Old 06-17-2016, 01:52 PM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,044,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
So let me get this straight. According to what you just said:

A guy born into a remote Amazonian tribe is Muslim by default.
No. The guy is a Muslim during the act of being born.

Quote:
He whiles his life away minding his own business, then on death he is offered the opportunity to learn of Islam and if he doesn't he's thrown into hellfire?
Once he learns about God and further command to him is given from God, he has to decide either to obey or disobey God. He would then be judged by God on his action then rather than what he did in Amazon jungle all his life without knowing anything about God.

Quote:
Even though, by your criteria he's actually lived his life as a Muslim?
You must have misunderstood!
Just because he was born a Muslim, it does not mean that he was living his adult life as a Muslim. He had to obey further commands from God and obey them in his adult life to live his adult life as a Muslim.

Quote:
The choice is ... believe this doctrine or else face an eternity in hell ... Not really much of choice is it?
The choice is either to keep the commandments (obey the commands) or go to hell. Even Jesus had warned to fear the One who has authority to throw you in hell after your death (Luke 12:5) and eternal fire (Matthew 18:8).

Quote:
Woodrow, you are bright person. You cannot in all seriousness believe all this.
Do you want him to believe that an innocent man paid for the sins of the whole mankind?

Quote:
EDIT: You know Christianity says much the same thing. Accept Christ or go to hell.
All Muslim accept Jesus as a Messiah. Does that mean that they are not going to hell? Life isn't that simple!

Quote:
It's a loving god though....
It is good to hear the flowery language but I would rather believe the loving and merciful God who will not die than a God who was born to a woman, walked on earth, ate broiled fish and drank like other human beings, then he was abused and spat on, and could not save himself from the angry Jewish crowd. I would rather believer in Jesus of the Qur'an, the Messiah, than Jesus the God of majority Christians. Merely accepting Jesus is no guarantee that you will not go to hell but only if you keeping the commandments (obeying God).
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