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Old 06-17-2016, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,317,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
So let me get this straight. According to what you just said:

A guy born into a remote Amazonian tribe is Muslim by default.
He whiles his life away minding his own business, then on death he is offered the opportunity to learn of Islam and if he doesn't he's thrown into hellfire?
Even though, by your criteria he's actually lived his life as a Muslim?
The choice is ... believe this doctrine or else face an eternity in hell ... Not really much of choice is it?


Woodrow, you are bright person. You cannot in all seriousness believe all this.


EDIT: You know Christianity says much the same thing. Accept Christ or go to hell.

It's a loving god though....
Being Muslim does not keep us from paying for our sins. All, Muslim and non-Muslim, will pay a price for the wrong we do.

(Sorry for all the typo errors, in my post--You have to be a cat owner to understand how they occurred. I have a lap-cat that helps me post)

One difference beteen Islam and Christianity is Islam does not teach automatic hell for non-believers. A person is judged in accordance with their intentions, Abilities and knowledge. All conditions and possibilities are taken into consideration. It is probable there are peole that do not accept Islam through no fault of their own.

to get sent to hell requires knowledge, intent and ability.
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Old 06-17-2016, 03:56 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 665,857 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Woodrow is not lying but you are; again.
Where the Prophet Muhammad said: «Black Stone of Stone Paradise», [7] he rubies from Sapphire paradise where the Prophet Muhammad said: «The corner and place Yakottan of Sapphire paradise blur God Norma though it blurs Norma to Odhaeta between the East and the West». [ 8]
Many of the debates about the nature of black stone was conducted. Where she described it different stones composed of basalt, onyx and a piece of glass and natural stone meteorite
According to Islamic doctrine enacted for those cruising to receive the black stone (ie touched his hand) and kiss him when he was passing by, [35] and if he can not received it in his hand and kissed her, and if he can not received it something with him (a stick and the like), and prior to that thing, and if he can not referred to He named his hand and the large (name of Allah, and Allah is the greatest) and does not accept his hand. It was narrated from Omar bin al-Khattab that he accepts the black stone and says: «I know that you are a stone does not harm or benefit, but not because I saw the Messenger of Allah accept you what kiss». [20] Roy Hafiz Ibn Hajar al-Tabari, he said: «but said that Omar , because people were newcomers to the worship of idols, Omar Vkhchi that fools think that the stone expand some stones receiving, as the Arabs were done in ignorance, Omar wanted to teach people that received followers did the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, not because the stone hurt and avails itself , as they were in the idols he thinks. »[36] [37]

According to a preferred anointed and receive, it degrades your sins and the sins narrated from Abdullah ibn Umar that the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him: «The black stone scan and the Yemeni Corner degrade demeaning sins». [38] and it is the Day of Resurrection sends and have eyes and tongue utters the name of who received it, narrated Abdullah bin Abbas, the Prophet, peace be upon him, he said: «God and to God Abosnh Doomsday his eyes he sees them, and tongue utters it, testifies to the received by the right» [39] [40]
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Old 06-17-2016, 03:58 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 665,857 times
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Why go to Hajj O Khalifa??????
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Old 06-17-2016, 04:30 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 665,857 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Being Muslim does not keep us from paying for our sins. All, Muslim and non-Muslim, will pay a price for the wrong we do.

(Sorry for all the typo errors, in my post--You have to be a cat owner to understand how they occurred. I have a lap-cat that helps me post)

One difference beteen Islam and Christianity is Islam does not teach automatic hell for non-believers. A person is judged in accordance with their intentions, Abilities and knowledge. All conditions and possibilities are taken into consideration. It is probable there are peole that do not accept Islam through no fault of their own.

to get sent to hell requires knowledge, intent and ability.
Did you know
That every Muslim to visit
hell???
f you only had a normal result of your Lord inevitably doomed (71) then we shall save those who fear and vow oppressors where Jthia (72)) وإن منكم إلا واردها كان على ربك حتما مقضيا ( 71 ) ثم ننجي الذين اتقوا ونذر الظالمين فيها جثيا ( 72 ) )

These interpretations are trying to get out of this impasse------
Interpreted by the prophet that roses traffic and supply, this is the roses, I mean Muslims passing them to heaven, not hurt it, some of them going through a jiffy, and some of them goes like lightning, and some of them going through the wind, and some of them passing horses and passengers Kojawad. Conducting their business, nor walk in the fire, the insurer does not enter the fire, but going through the passage does not hurt, it Vabat bridge aboard the hell is going through the people, has fallen some people; to the severity of his transgressions and frequent Masih, punishable as much as his sins, then God, get it out of the fire if united believer, and the infidels do not go through, but driven into the fire, and crammed them seek refuge with Allah from this, but some sinners whom God did not pardon them may fall Bmasih in which he died, he does not repent such as adultery, drinking schnapps, and disobedience to parents, and usury, the semiconductor that is a major sin, its owner under the will of God as Allah the Almighty said: (Allah does not forgive him and to engage forgive that to whom he wills) (48) Nisa
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Old 06-17-2016, 04:33 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 665,857 times
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to--Woodrow

Do you know this verse ????
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Old 06-17-2016, 08:13 PM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,045,849 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
Why go to Hajj O Khalifa??????
It is better to go to hajj than to hell. You can't go to hajj; I can. Perhaps that is why you lied about Muslims worshiping the black stone. I have never worshiped the black stone.
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Old 06-17-2016, 11:13 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 665,857 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It is better to go to hajj than to hell. You can't go to hajj; I can. Perhaps that is why you lied about Muslims worshiping the black stone. I have never worshiped the black stone.
My friend
When you go to the pilgrimage to kiss the Black Stone

One of the most important Islamic rituals in Hajj
Mohammed kiss the Black Stone
What do you call this Islamic rituals (rites of pilgrimage)
It erases the sins and the sins
Black Stone Ashraf stone on the face of the earth, which oversaw the Sacred House parts
4. prostrate on the stone after kissing
Bayhaqi narrated from Ibn Abbas [it before him and worshiped him and said: I saw Omar bin al-Khattab may Allah be pleased with him before, and worshiped him, and then said: I saw the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him to do so I did] (15)
The reasons for the forgiveness of sins
- Black Stone and the Yemeni Corner Survey: Ibn Umar said: The Messenger of Allah said: {The Black Stone and the Yemeni Corner survey degrade sins demeaning} [Reported by Ahmad and horses].
This is your faith?
But hell, the verse is clear
f you only had a normal result of your Lord inevitably doomed (71) then we shall save those who fear and vow oppressors where Jthia (72)) وإن منكم إلا واردها كان على ربك حتما مقضيا ( 71 ) ثم ننجي الذين اتقوا ونذر الظالمين فيها جثيا ( 72 ) )
Question elders and read it yourself entry to hell is inevitable
This is your problem, not mine problem
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Old 06-18-2016, 12:01 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,592,154 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
A Muslim is someone who obeys command from God.

A baby is born obeying the command of God ("Be"). The command "Be" is spiritual. Without this "spirit", a baby cannot exist as a living being. Therefore, a baby is regarded as Muslim because his birth/coming into existence as living being was due to the command of God.

Later in life, when s/he is able to make informed decisions, and is responsible for his/her actions, and hears about further commands from God, s/he can be either a believer or an unbeliever. A believer, who obeys further commands from God, remains a Muslim. If s/he disobeys further commands from God, s/he is no longer a Muslim but unbeliever and munkar (opposite of Muslim).

A person is not unbeliever if s/he hasn't heard about God. Such a person is not going to be punished by God as s/he hasn't disobeyed God.

This is why it is good for someone to not even hear any further command from God in his/her adult life than read the whole Qur'an 50+ times and still not obey the commands.
You are talking nonsense here.

The point is believers MUST be bias to twist and turn to fit whatever to their accepted beliefs regardless of the truths, otherwise their faith will not work and they will face terrible anguish and anxieties.
Obey:
1. To carry out or fulfill the command, order, or instruction of.
2. To carry out or comply with (a command, for example).
To obey is a conscious and deliberate act.
A baby do not have the ability of deliberate conscious acts.
Show me proofs babies [up 6 months old] do not have the ability of deliberate conscious acts.
A baby is only driven by instincts.

Who is a Muslim can only be defined technically which is a person who has entered into a covenant with Allah when having declared and affirmed the essence of the 'Shahada' in whatever the form and thus is expected to comply with the terms of the covenant stipulated in the Quran.

A person who is not a genuine Muslim [a non-Muslim] in the eyes of Allah will be punished in Hell. The difference between an ignorant non-Muslim and one who is aware of Allah's reminders is merely in degrees but nevertheless will be faced unpleasant consequences in Hell.
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Old 06-18-2016, 04:59 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,045,849 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are talking nonsense here.

The point is believers MUST be bias to twist and turn to fit whatever to their accepted beliefs regardless of the truths, otherwise their faith will not work and they will face terrible anguish and anxieties.
I knew you won't understand how a baby is a Muslim. For you to understand my point, you need to get rid of your bias and understanding that every Muslim is not Muhammadan. In Arabic, anything or anyone that submits to Allah, willingly or unwillingly is "muslim". Any human being who submits to Allah is a "muslim". You submitted to Allah without knowing by coming into existence and you will submit to Allah at death without knowing or willingly. Your spirit, that comes from Allah (and is known as His command) is well aware about you submitting to Allah at birth and at death.

Therefore, in ignorance about Islam, you are talking utter nonsense.
You are a long way from understanding the Qur'an and "islam" ("submission").

Quote:
To obey is a conscious and deliberate act.
[3.83] Is it then other than Allah's religion that they seek (to follow), and to Him submits whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned.

It is foolish to seek any other deen in your life than submitting to Allah even though sooner or later you will have no choice but to submit to His command willingly or unwillingly.

Frankly, it is rather above your capability to understand it for the time being.

Quote:
A baby do not have the ability of deliberate conscious acts.
Show me proofs babies [up 6 months old] do not have the ability of deliberate conscious acts.
A baby is only driven by instincts.
A baby is not born by his own will or instinct but with the Will of Allah. Such obedience to Allah is similar as described in the following verse of the Qur'an:

[41.11] Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly.

Knowing you from exchanging posts in this forum, you will say that heaven and earth have no tongues and can't speak and, therefore, can't "say" anything. This will be so because you can't understand their obedience to Allah's command ("be"/"come into existence").

[36.82] His command, when He intends anything, is only to say to it: Be, so it is.

A baby comes into existence with the Command of Allah. It is obeying the command (submission), submitting to Allah (as a muslim) when coming into existence. I suggest you read the Qur'an and understand what is meant by submitting and by "muslim" (there is no capital M in Arabic).

Quote:
Who is a Muslim can only be defined technically which is a person who has entered into a covenant with Allah when having declared and affirmed the essence of the 'Shahada' in whatever the form and thus is expected to comply with the terms of the covenant stipulated in the Quran.
Every created soul is muslim technically or otherwise as it cannot come into existence without submitting to Allah's command.

Quote:
A person who is not a genuine Muslim [a non-Muslim] in the eyes of Allah will be punished in Hell. The difference between an ignorant non-Muslim and one who is aware of Allah's reminders is merely in degrees but nevertheless will be faced unpleasant consequences in Hell.
You are making it up in ignorance. Every soul submits to Allah before its birth and at death. But such a soul is given an opportunity to submit or refuse to submit consciously too. Nobody will go to hell without having disobeyed Allah consciously.
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Old 06-18-2016, 05:43 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,045,849 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
My friend
When you go to the pilgrimage to kiss the Black Stone
You are talking nonsense and out of your depth. I have been to Makkah 5 times. Never kissed the black stone even once. It is not a requirement to kiss the black stone. Kissing it or even touching it is not worshiping it. Muslims worship only Allah.

It is the idol worshipers who worship stone idols.

Quote:
One of the most important Islamic rituals in Hajj
Mohammed kiss the Black Stone
It's not required to kiss the stone in hajj. It is not important Islamic ritual, never mind most important. People do kiss the stone but not everyone on hajj. They do it for unity and to feel part of the group of people who have already done it. Other than that, there is absolutely no need to do it.
.
Quote:
What do you call this Islamic rituals (rites of pilgrimage)
It erases the sins and the sins
You are talking like an ignorant man. Kissing the stone does not erase any sin.

Quote:
4. prostrate on the stone after kissing
You can't prostrate on the stone after kissing it. There is no room to do any prostration on the stone. Once again, you are talking in ignorance.

Quote:
Bayhaqi narrated from Ibn Abbas [it before him and worshiped him and said: I saw Omar bin al-Khattab may Allah be pleased with him before, and worshiped him, and then said: I saw the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him to do so I did] (15)
The reasons for the forgiveness of sins
- Black Stone and the Yemeni Corner Survey: Ibn Umar said: The Messenger of Allah said: {The Black Stone and the Yemeni Corner survey degrade sins demeaning} [Reported by Ahmad and horses].
This is your faith?
But hell, the verse is clear
f you only had a normal result of your Lord inevitably doomed (71) then we shall save those who fear and vow oppressors where Jthia (72)) وإن منكم إلا واردها كان على ربك حتما مقضيا ( 71 ) ثم ننجي الذين اتقوا ونذر الظالمين فيها جثيا ( 72 ) )
Question elders and read it yourself entry to hell is inevitable
This is your problem, not mine problem
You are being quite stupid. You are twisting whatever you read about Islam. It really is pathetic, stupid and a lie to say that we worship the black stone. This is the madness on purpose that will be punished by Allah, inshaAllah.

I will help you come out of your madness. Study the pictures of Muslims worshiping around the Ka'aba. All are facing towards the middle of the Ka'aba. The stone is not in the midde of the Ka'aba but in one corner (the eastern corner). There is nothing in the middle of the Ka'aba. All the idols that your forefathers used to worship were thrown out by Muhammad and his companions a long time ago.
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