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Old 06-18-2016, 07:16 AM
1,601 posts, read 753,037 times
Reputation: 435


Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are many things in this world one submits to without knowing or understanding.

We all submit to the laws of physics even babies that have no knowledge of them.
You equate reality with non-reality. You compare natural with supernatural. What if I say infants submit to the law of gravity so they also submit to the tooth fairy? That is what you do.

Our first act of submission to the tooth fairy was our being born. So yes we all submit fully to the tooth fairy just as we submit to the laws of physics.

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
We humans and all other physical beings and objects are limited to that which we can observe. But that is not prof that the physical universe is all there is.
Reality is all there is. There is no supernatural. Why isn't reality enough for you??

Obviously you are unable to think about this, but I am. There is a huge pile of evidence for natural law, for gravity, physical universe. There is NOTHING for the supernatural. You cannot point to anything but faith for any of this supernatural garbage. Whenever we learn something new, it fits right in with all the rest of our knowledge. We don't suddenly discover that there are supernatural invisible superheros that fly in the face of reality that caused a tsunami. Everything we learn that might have seemed magical turns out to be....NOT MAGIC.

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
When we keep our self locked into the belief that only that which can be measured, quantified and qualified is what exists, we have not found reason to believe beyond the physical realm. The fact we do not have the physical means to prove something exists is not prove it does not exist.
It does when the basic assumption starts out as supernatural. There is NO EVIDENCE for the supernatural. NONE! There are no things that exist beyond the natural world that do not follow the law of identity. You can wish for them all you want. the unreal is not real. We did not have the means to prove many things, but that did not mean those things were supernatural, or that there were supernatural events. As I said, everything we learned that may have seemed supernatural turned out to be natural; Real. Not supernatural. Not miracles. Every new scientific discovery is reality based, complete with evidence leading to proof. No evidence for a god, or tooth fairy, or mind reading, or ghosts, or ANYTHING supernatural has ever carried it's weight. It is garbage. A is A. A proof of God would be fatal to religion. A God susceptible to proof would have to be finite and limited; He would be one entity among others within the universe, not a mystic omnipotence transcending science and reality. What nourishes the spirit of religion is not proof, but faith: the undercutting of manís mind.

You yearn for and surrender your mind to the unreal. For that which there is no evidence and that which has no place in our natural world:

1. The creation of non-physical beings with the capability of entering the physical real (Angels)

Absolutely no evidence and flies in the face of all our proven knowledge and violates the law of identity. Total hogwash.

2. The non-physical influence of innate messages created withing some humans (Prohets)

Absolutely no evidence and flies in the face of all our proven knowledge and violates the law of identity. Total hogwash.

3.The non-physical communication through thought (inspiration)

Absolutely no evidence and flies in the face of all our proven knowledge and violates the law of identity. Total hogwash.

And dangerous hogwash.

Faith and force are corollaries. Look at history.

I'm wasting my time. You've lost your ability to reason.
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Old 06-18-2016, 10:03 PM
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
Reputation: 461
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I knew you won't understand how a baby is a Muslim. For you to understand my point, you need to get rid of your bias and understanding that every Muslim is not Muhammadan. In Arabic, anything or anyone that submits to Allah, willingly or unwillingly is "muslim". Any human being who submits to Allah is a "muslim". You submitted to Allah without knowing by coming into existence and you will submit to Allah at death without knowing or willingly. Your spirit, that comes from Allah (and is known as His command) is well aware about you submitting to Allah at birth and at death.

Therefore, in ignorance about Islam, you are talking utter nonsense.
You are a long way from understanding the Qur'an and "islam" ("submission").
I understand your twisted point but it is a personal attack and insult to insist "I" have submitted to Allah without knowing.

I understand you have to believe in your beliefs but it is different human value altogether when you impose your beliefs on others who do not share the same beliefs as you.

I suggest you do not use "YOU" but qualify by saying "in accordance to the Quran it is implied all are born Muslims .."

My view is such a claim is very stupid based on ignorance of human nature.
In the first place the logic is flawed because your first premise is false, i.e. God do not exists, therefore whatever conclusions that follows are all false.

[3.83] Is it then other than Allah's religion that they seek (to follow), and to Him submits whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned.

It is foolish to seek any other deen in your life than submitting to Allah even though sooner or later you will have no choice but to submit to His command willingly or unwillingly.

Frankly, it is rather above your capability to understand it for the time being.
Btw your above do not address my point, i.e.
"To obey is a conscious and deliberate act."
Instead you blabber into something off tangent.
Prove to me "to obey" is not a conscious and deliberate act.
A baby [< six months] do have the mental ability to "obey" with deliberate conscious awareness.
A six month old baby do not even have self-awareness of his/her own self.

I am NOT saying you are "foolish" in believing in Islam but I understand you as a human being like the majority are in a desperate [subliminal] existential crisis and psychological turmoil that you need a religion for salvation.
It is very unfortunate you ended up with Islam which in PART has malignant evil elements that influenced and inspire SOME [not all] Muslims who were born with evil tendencies to commit terrible evils and violence.

I am well aware of the universal 'deen' or 'dharma' [universal flow of life] in other spirituality and I make a conscious effort to develop a state that will align my psyche with the universal flow of life optimally.
The Quran interpret the 'flow of life' as 'deen' in a very crude immature way that results in terrible evils and violence as committed by SOME evil prone believers.

A baby is not born by his own will or instinct but with the Will of Allah. Such obedience to Allah is similar as described in the following verse of the Qur'an:

[41.11] Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly.

Knowing you from exchanging posts in this forum, you will say that heaven and earth have no tongues and can't speak and, therefore, can't "say" anything. This will be so because you can't understand their obedience to Allah's command ("be"/"come into existence").

[36.82] His command, when He intends anything, is only to say to it: Be, so it is.

A baby comes into existence with the Command of Allah. It is obeying the command (submission), submitting to Allah (as a muslim) when coming into existence. I suggest you read the Qur'an and understand what is meant by submitting and by "muslim" (there is no capital M in Arabic).
What nonsense are you talking about when you insist a baby is not born without instincts. This is very stupid because the facts of "instinct" is so obvious.
Read up on what are instincts.

Every created soul is muslim technically or otherwise as it cannot come into existence without submitting to Allah's command.
The fact and evidence is all humans are born and more humans will be born. This you cannot dispute.
But to jump to conclusion that humans and babies are born by the WILL of Allah is false.
First because it is impossible for Allah to exists and you cannot prove it, you have admitted you believe God based on faith and not proofs nor justifiable reasons.
Therefore whatever claims you made in relation to God cannot be credible.
As I have mentioned I have no qualms with people believing in a God for psychological reasons but they cannot insist what is based on a God are facts.

Obviously I understand what is meant by submission [in Islam and other situations] by human beings.
But to say a baby is born submitting to Allah is not justifiable at all.
Btw, have done research on Child Development. I have done extensive research on this subject. This is very necessary because we are all humans and most of us have children and it is imperative to understand human nature.

You are making it up in ignorance. Every soul submits to Allah before its birth and at death. But such a soul is given an opportunity to submit or refuse to submit consciously too. Nobody will go to hell without having disobeyed Allah consciously.
Note your views above are based on faith and not on evidence, proofs nor justifiable reasons because your first and fundamental premise is false, i.e. it is impossible for a God to exists as real except for psychological reasons of salvation.

In accordance to the Quran,
There is no soul before birth.
Allah breathe his 'spirit' into the fetus created by Allah.
So at which point is the fetus or baby conscious to 'submit' to Allah.

You are simply messing with the concept of 'submission' within the intended meaning in the Quran.
The Quran stressed, Allah created humans and jinns to worship Allah.
Rightly humans will only worship [verb] when they are in a conscious state to worship [including submission] Allah.
Babies and young children of Muslims parent are by default 'Muslims' and that is only a socially compromised acceptance because in reality they are not technically Muslims until they have consciously submitted to Allah by entering into a covenant with Allah as stipulated in the Quran.

Last edited by Continuum; 06-18-2016 at 10:12 PM..
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