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Old 05-31-2016, 01:18 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

Just like every person born in the USA is a US citizen even if they have no idea what the US is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
This is a very bad analogy.
Comparing to your analogies, this is perfect analogy. Anything you can't understand, is bad.
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Old 05-31-2016, 01:29 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
These comments expose your hate for even the word "Muslim". You hate it so much that even being associated with it in any way you feel insulted. You feel that insult "as a human being" because you you are ignorant to feel so as if, in your mind, Muslims are not human beings so you do not want to be associated with them even this way.

You comments to even suggestion that all babies are born Muslims is in utter ignorance of what is meant by this suggestion.
Note it is obvious Islam and the Quran in part [not whole] contain malignant elements that influenced and inspired SOME Muslims who are born with evil tendencies to commit terrible evils and violence.
Rationally why should I be associated, more so imposed and force upon to be associated with such malignant elements.

It is only rational that I complain such attribution to my dignity is an insult.
What is wrong with that?
Explain why I should not feel insulted and therefrom criticize at association of me as being born a Muslim.

I don't want to be drawn into hate as a result of that insult. Hate is an ugly, detrimental and poisonous emotion and there is no way an insult from Islam will trigger hate in me towards a double whammy.
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Old 05-31-2016, 01:37 AM
 
35,108 posts, read 40,257,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
This is something many non-Muslims can not comprehend. they will state they can not have been a Muslim as they never joined Islam. SURPIZE--No one has ever Joined Islam, Not even Muhammad(saws). there is no such thing as joining Islam as it is not a church, religious denomination or any form of organization. Islam is the Act of submitting to god(swt) to the best of you abilityand knowledge. Every person who for any reason has no knowledge of Islam, through no fault of their own, is performing Islam to the best of their ability in accordance with the knowledge they have.
Everyone, including you, was born as a Muslim, and remain as such up until they reach the age of being able to make a free will choice.
I will believe my Mother over you every moment of every day and according to her I was born Catholic.
If you disagree fine but allow me to sell tickets to the ensueing chaos when *you* tell *My Mother*
I was not born Catholic.
It should be worth a couple buckets of popcorn before she is done explaining *her* truth about *her*
child to you.
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Old 05-31-2016, 01:48 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
A "muslim", in Arabic, is someone or something during the act of submitting to Allah by obeying His command. Allah's command could be in any form. It could be in a form of guidance or just "be" ("come into existence") or just "die" and you have no other choice but to "be" ("come into existence") or "die". And when you do that, "come into existence" or "die", you are submitting to Allah (willingly or unwillingly does not matter in these case). Basically that is what is meant by a baby being born a Muslim. Baby is submitting to Allah, knowingly or unknowingly makes no difference, as long as it is Allah's Will.

[41.11] Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly.

[3.83] Is it then other than Allah's religion that they seek
(to follow), and to Him submits whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned.

[15.5] No people can hasten on their doom nor can they postpone
(it).

Yes, when Allah commands that you "die", you will not be able to postpone your doom; you will have to die. You will be "muslim" in that action for a few seconds willingly or unwillingly even if you hate the word "muslim" and do not want to be associated with it in any way.
As a Muslim you should keep your belief to yourself and not infringe on the rights and basic human dignity of others.
By insisting I was born a Muslim is an infringement of my human right to believe what is real and ignoring falsehoods.
Where is your sense of morality in this matter?

What if a Hindu keep pestering you, that you and all humans were born Hindus then apostate to become a Muslim based on falsehoods?

The way you post about "die" imply you are really a coward to face reality, i.e. mortality and death. You are such a coward to face the reality of death and run to cling to an illusory God for salvation, [worst with side effects that results in evils and violence].

I am not a Buddhist per se but I adopt many of the core doctrines of Buddhism in addition to whatever knowledge that is necessary to live effectively.
The primary purpose of Buddhism is to recognize the reality of death which will bring the mother of all mental sufferings as reflected in the 4 Noble Truths (4NT). The 4NT raised this awareness and show humans the solutions on how to deal with this mother of all sufferings to achieve a peace of mind to promote effective living.

The Four Noble Truths
1. The truth of suffering (dukkha) [Mother of all dukkha is 'the fear of mortality'].
2. The truth of the cause of suffering (samudaya)
3. The truth of the end of suffering (nirhodha)
4. The truth of the path that frees us from suffering (magga)


Therefore don't try to frighten me with mortality as what the Quran is doing. The Quran heighten the emotions of fears of death but do not provide effective solutions to deal with it to the extent SOME Muslims who are born with evil tendencies to commit terrible evils and violence on non-believers and even Muslims.
The Quran and Islam is a religion of the lowest quality to deal with the reality of mortality and it end up with side effects of SOME [not you] committing terrible evils and violence.

Last edited by Continuum; 05-31-2016 at 02:09 AM..
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Old 05-31-2016, 07:06 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
Reputation: 204
Some believe that the meaning of the word Islam means peace
But the real meaning is surrender
Christ said the words of wonderful
By their fruits
Know them
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Old 05-31-2016, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is an insult to all non-Muslims.
This is also a very personal insult to me as a human being.
This is also a bashing of non-Muslims on a personal basis.
That is one of the problem with Islam and Muslims [most not all], all they want is their selfish interests and they don't give a damn when they insult and bash non-Muslims.

If you want to insist on your point because the Sunnah said so or Quran implied it, you should keep it privately and personally and not throw it at the faces of other human beings who are not Muslims.

Islam has certain pros for some people, but there is no way I am associated with Islam which is a low quality religion with doctrines which in part contain very malignant elements where its resultants are proven with the glaring evidences of terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims [born with or brainwashed later].

The fact is DNA wise, all humans are born human beings with an inherent algorithm which drive different people toward spirituality and the majority to religions and a God to soothe the terrible subliminal psychological pains and angst.

If insecured Muslims with very low self esteem insist all are born Muslims, then Jews can also claims all humans are born Jewish if they want to, Hindus can also claim all are born Hindus, so can Buddhists and others. The other believers do not make such a claim [all are born into their respective religions] because it is silly and religiously immatured and offensive to others.
Any religion or non-religion can state what they believe, what they can not do is force others to believe what they believe.

Many Catholics and some other Christians and possibly other groups also tend to believe all people are born as Catholics etc.. Although it is much more common for religious people to believe all people are destined to hell unless they are "saved" Islam is probably the most adamant in believing all people are born "Saved" and it is free will choices that cause them to manage to get themselves "Unsaved"



This is the Islamic forum and one common purpose of each of the Religious Forums and the Atheist forum is to allow a venue for each of us to state our specific beliefs. It is one of our beliefs that every human is born performing Islam. they are submitting fully to Allaah(swt) by being born and a person who performs Islam is a Muslim.

There is nothing wrong in disagreeing with us, but I do hope people disagree with what we actually believe and not what they assume what we belive.

When one goes to the Christian Forum expect to read about Christian beliefs. When on goews to the Jewish forum, expect to read about Jewish beliefs when one goes to the Atheists forum expect to read about atheist views. when one goes to the Islamic forum expect to read about Islamic beliefs.

The most important aspect of this belief is it reminds us we should always treat all people equally. No person is born as a non-Muslim. They only cease being Muslim by their own personal choices. We need to treat all people equally and especially not claim anyone is not a Muslim as we have no one of knowing if any one has ever stopped performing Islam to the best of their ability and knowledge.
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Old 05-31-2016, 08:13 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Any religion or non-religion can state what they believe, what they can not do is force others to believe what they believe.

Many Catholics and some other Christians and possibly other groups also tend to believe all people are born as Catholics etc.. Although it is much more common for religious people to believe all people are destined to hell unless they are "saved" Islam is probably the most adamant in believing all people are born "Saved" and it is free will choices that cause them to manage to get themselves "Unsaved"



This is the Islamic forum and one common purpose of each of the Religious Forums and the Atheist forum is to allow a venue for each of us to state our specific beliefs. It is one of our beliefs that every human is born performing Islam. they are submitting fully to Allaah(swt) by being born and a person who performs Islam is a Muslim.

There is nothing wrong in disagreeing with us, but I do hope people disagree with what we actually believe and not what they assume what we belive.

When one goes to the Christian Forum expect to read about Christian beliefs. When on goews to the Jewish forum, expect to read about Jewish beliefs when one goes to the Atheists forum expect to read about atheist views. when one goes to the Islamic forum expect to read about Islamic beliefs.

The most important aspect of this belief is it reminds us we should always treat all people equally. No person is born as a non-Muslim. They only cease being Muslim by their own personal choices. We need to treat all people equally and especially not claim anyone is not a Muslim as we have no one of knowing if any one has ever stopped performing Islam to the best of their ability and knowledge.
OK
you Are a Muslim
Offered this topic( every one born muslem )
What is the evidences from the Koran????
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Old 05-31-2016, 08:27 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
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Meaning of the word "Islam" out:
The origin of the word "Islam" is to surrender and submit,
Is it permissible for a Muslim to embrace Aldeanhnasranih and exhibits in their way of worship?
Answer

Praise be to God and blessings and peace be upon the Messenger of Allah and his family and companions either:

Leaving the religion of Islam, Christianity and embracing Rose deserves perpetrator of murder after they repent, the repented and returned to his religion religion fell from him there, and guide the apostate words of the Prophet, peace be upon him: "Whoever changes his religion, kill him," Bukhari and Ahmad and teaches liquid that Islam copy all Previous messages and abrogated its provisions, and therefore he says: (it seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him in the Hereafter) [Al-Imran: 85] and the Almighty said: (O people of the Scripture believe in what we came to confirm what was with you before Ntms faces Fenrdha on Odbarha or Nnhm also to us the owners Saturday and it was God's command effect) [women: 47] and the Almighty said: (today I have perfected your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion) [table: from verse 3] and other verses that show that the God does not accept is the religion of one anyway, and that God called people of the book, the the people of the book are ordered to leave their religion and convert to the religion of Islam, and did not do it of them is from the people of Hell, narrated in Saheeh Muslim from Abu Hurayrah, may Allah be pleased with him Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, he said: "and whose hand is not heard me one of this nation, Jew or Christian, then die and did not believe in him who sent, but it was the owners of the fire."
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Old 05-31-2016, 08:44 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

The most important aspect of this belief is it reminds us we should always treat all people equally. No person is born as a non-Muslim. They only cease being Muslim by their own personal choices. We need to treat all people equally and especially not claim anyone is not a Muslim as we have no one of knowing if any one has ever stopped performing Islam to the best of their ability and knowledge.
Not true. If people believe in and espouse an evil ideology and/or commit evil acts, on what basis should they be treated equally to people who hold an ideology of good and act for the good? What you want to do is equate evil with good. Treating the murderer equally with the doctor who saves many lives is wrong. What you are really trying to do here is eliminate morality.

Who wins and who loses when we put good and evil on the same level?

And, if we are to be honest and rational and reality based, all babies are born atheist. They have no belief in anything at all. Just the potential for belief. They cannot be unknowingly submitting to anything, including your fantasy god. To suggest such a thing is just silly. One thing this kind of thinking leads to is the brainwashing of children, as you have seen in the videos I have posted. Another thing is the hateful 'us against them' mentality.
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Old 05-31-2016, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
OK
you Are a Muslim
Offered this topic( every one born muslem )
What is the evidences from the Koran????

Al-A'raf (The Heights) - 7:172
وَإِذْ أَخَذَ رَبُّكَ مِن بَنِي آدَمَ مِن ظُهُورِهِمْ ذُرِّيَّتَهُمْ وَأَشْهَدَهُمْ عَلَى أَنفُسِهِمْ أَلَسْتُ بِرَبِّكُمْ قَالُواْ بَلَى شَهِدْنَا أَن تَقُولُواْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِنَّا كُنَّا عَنْ هَذَا غَافِلِينَ (7:172)

And (remember) when thy Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their reins, their seed, and made them testify of themselves, (saying): Am I not your Lord? They said: Yea, verily. We testify. (That was) lest ye should say at the Day of Resurrection: Lo! of this we were unaware; - 7:172 (Picktall)

أَوْ تَقُولُواْ إِنَّمَا أَشْرَكَ آبَاؤُنَا مِن قَبْلُ وَكُنَّا ذُرِّيَّةً مِّن بَعْدِهِمْ أَفَتُهْلِكُنَا بِمَا فَعَلَ الْمُبْطِلُونَ (7:173)

Or lest ye should say: (It is) only (that) our fathers ascribed partners to Allah of old and we were (their) seed after them. Wilt Thou destroy us on account of that which those who follow falsehood did? - 7:173 (Picktall)

Al-Baqara (The Cow) - 2:38
قُلْنَا اهْبِطُواْ مِنْهَا جَمِيعاً فَإِمَّا يَأْتِيَنَّكُم مِّنِّي هُدًى فَمَن تَبِعَ هُدَايَ فَلاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ (2:38)

We said: Go down, all of you, from hence; but verily there cometh unto you from Me a guidance; and whoso followeth My guidance, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. - 2:38 (Picktall)
Al-Baqara (The Cow) - 2:22
الَّذِي جَعَلَ لَكُمُ الأَرْضَ فِرَاشاً وَالسَّمَاء بِنَاء وَأَنزَلَ مِنَ السَّمَاء مَاء فَأَخْرَجَ بِهِ مِنَ الثَّمَرَاتِ رِزْقاً لَّكُمْ فَلاَ تَجْعَلُواْ لِلّهِ أَندَاداً وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ (2:22)

Who hath appointed the earth a resting-place for you, and the sky a canopy; and causeth water to pour down from the sky, thereby producing fruits as food for you. And do not set up rivals to Allah when ye know (better). - 2:22 (Picktall)


Al-A'raf (The Heights) - 7:174
وَكَذَلِكَ نُفَصِّلُ الآيَاتِ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْجِعُونَ (7:174)

Thus We detail Our revelations, that haply they may return. - 7:174 (Picktall)

For an explanation as to why we believe these verse show we are all born Muslim see this Link

Birth as a Muslim? | Islam.com - The Islamic community news, discussion, and Question & Answer forum
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