Everybody is born a Muslim (worship, atheist, Sunni, Europe)
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You say that it "can" be done without any contact with other Muslims or attendance with a mosque.
In the REAL world Woodrow, how many non-affiliated Muslims are there actually? As opposed to Muslims who identify with a particular sect if Islam, attend prayers at mosques along with other members, and follow the teachings of particular imams?
Anyway, my original point was to counter your claim there's no such thing as "joining" Islam. Every religion has its share of converts, Islam included.
While about 90% of Muslims consider themselves to Be Sunni. very few see them self as following a sect.denomination. Sectarianism is forbidden, we all are to me Muslim with no membership in any group or any label except Muslim. to be Sunni does not require attendence in any particular Mosque. There is no actual requirement to attend a Mosque. We consider the space we say our prayers is to be the Mosque, not the building. No building required. We do not have any ordained clergy. every Muslim who knows how tp perform Salat can consider them self an Imam.
In the real world outside the Arab nations, very few Muslims actually attend any Mosque. Most of us do our required prayers at home, school or work.
I dn not personally know any Muslims here in Noth Dakota or Texas that claim any type of membership or affiliation to any Mosque. There probably are some that do. I have not personally come across any.
Here is the US I find it more common for there to be We tno Imam the oldest person present assumes the position at prayer time. In the US there are at least2300 known Mosques, but less than 700 Imams
The largest gathering of Austin Muslims I have seen was a joint Maghreb Salat at Eid Fitr 2004. for all the Muslims in Austin, I doubt if there were over 300 present although I am quite certain there are at least14,000 Muslims in Austin.
For a fish, the reality is within water. That fish won't be aware of any other reality. Reality for someone born in Amazon could be just that jungle. For you, reality is whatever you see and know around you in your world. There is no other reality or ultimate reality for you.
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Note philosophers have been discussing this topic for eons and there is no such thing as ultimate reality...
Dead philosophers are aware of the ultimate reality but can't come back to tell you about it.
[23.99-100] Until when death overtakes one of them, he says: Send me back, my Lord, send me back; haply I may do good in that which I have left. By no means! it is a (mere) word that he speaks; and before them is a barrier until the day they are raised.
It's too late for those philosophers who are now aware of the ultimate reality to tell you about it.
For a fish, the reality is within water. That fish won't be aware of any other reality. Reality for someone born in Amazon could be just that jungle. For you, reality is whatever you see and know around you in your world. There is no other reality or ultimate reality for you.
Dead philosophers are aware of the ultimate reality but can't come back to tell you about it.
[23.99-100] Until when death overtakes one of them, he says: Send me back, my Lord, send me back; haply I may do good in that which I have left. By no means! it is a (mere) word that he speaks; and before them is a barrier until the day they are raised.
It's too late for those philosophers who are now aware of the ultimate reality to tell you about it.
Are you joking? There is not a 'fish reality', or a 'jungle reality'. Reality exists independent of any perceiver’s consciousness. That a fish does not know that you exist does not mean you do not exist in reality. That you do not know that the fish does not exist does not mean that fish does not exist in reality. Good grief, who screwed up your metaphysics like this?
“Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed.”
This means that man does not create reality and can achieve his values only by making his decisions in agreement with the facts of reality.
I imagine they don't get reported on very much because they're not typically causing conflict. i.e. If they don't identify with a particular sect, they're likely not trying to wage war on another sect.
For that matter, I wonder how many unaffiliated Muslims are counted among general surveys of Muslim attitudes. I imagine the ones living quietly and devoutly, minding their own business more or less, are underrepresented in those surveys...
Last edited by emeraldmist; 06-01-2016 at 07:44 PM..
A laudable position. How prevalent is it in Islam versus identifying as Sunni, Shia etc.?
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Originally Posted by emeraldmist
I imagine they don't get reported on very much because they're not typically causing conflict. i.e. If they don't identify with a particular sect, they're likely not trying to wage war on another sect.
For that matter, I wonder how many unaffiliated Muslims are counted among general surveys of Muslim attitudes. I imagine the ones living quietly and devoutly, minding their own business more or less, are underrepresented in those surveys...
Most muslims do not identify as being any particular denomination. the Majority simplyidentify as being Muslim.Many that I know personally have no idea of there being differenct denominations. The vast majority if asked simply say they are Muslim.
When we go to a Mosque for Salat, we do not inquire if it is Sunni, Shi'a, Sufi etc.
The Salat (any one of the 5 obligatory prayers) should be the same in every Mosque, no matter what flavor they claim to be. The vast majority of Mosques do not claim to members of any group.
It is probably impossible to know how many Muslims their acually are. Most statistics base their statistics on observed Mosque attendence. But that is not reliable as we typically do not attend any one Mosque regulary, we just go to the closest one to us at Salat time, if we are going to perform Salat in a Mosque.
there are no membeship roles as there is no membership. There is no requirement for a Muslim to pray in a mosque. However, most of us believe their are blessings to praying in a group, rather than alone. But that can be done anyplace.
I personally suspect the number of Muslims is much larger than the estimates, as most Muslims are not readily identifiable by appearance. Especialy Muslims of UK or European ancestry. Which is probably quite large. also Native American Muslims are seldom seen as being Muslim by Non-Muslims.
there is a bit of irony and subtle Humer that has resulted from the inability to identiry who is or is not Muslim. president Obama is probabaly the american with the most evidence showing he is not Muslim, yet he is believed to be Muslim by very many non-Muslims. The fact is many of us Muslims blieve he is not only not Muslim but very anti-Islamic.
Getting back to topic, most Muslims in the US are not identified as being Muslim, and very many non-Muslims are viewed as being Muslim.
Some groups that many non-Muslims assume to be Muslims
Sikhs
Chassidic Jews
Sephadic Jews
Coptic Christians
Non-Muslim Sufi (There are some non-Muslims that practice Sufi'ism)
Arabi Christians
Arabic Jews
Yazidi
Messian Muslims
But over all I believe there are more Muslims that non-Muslims believe not to be Muslim, that Non-Muslims they believe are Muslim.
Most muslims do not identify as being any particular denomination. the Majority simplyidentify as being Muslim.Many that I know personally have no idea of there being differenct denominations. The vast majority if asked simply say they are Muslim.
That is not the case in all parts of the world. For example, in the middle east and north africa only 12% claim to be 'just a Muslim'. In South Asia it is only 4%. The larger numbers would be Central Asia with 50% and Southern-Eastern Europe with 56% identifying as 'just a Muslim'. This is no vast majority.
In five of seven countries surveyed in the Middle East and North Africa, at least four-in-ten or more Sunnis say Shias are not Muslims.
For a fish, the reality is within water. That fish won't be aware of any other reality. Reality for someone born in Amazon could be just that jungle. For you, reality is whatever you see and know around you in your world. There is no other reality or ultimate reality for you.
Dead philosophers are aware of the ultimate reality but can't come back to tell you about it.
[23.99-100] Until when death overtakes one of them, he says: Send me back, my Lord, send me back; haply I may do good in that which I have left. By no means! it is a (mere) word that he speaks; and before them is a barrier until the day they are raised.
It's too late for those philosophers who are now aware of the ultimate reality to tell you about it.
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Originally Posted by juju33312
Are you joking? There is not a 'fish reality', or a 'jungle reality'. Reality exists independent of any perceiver’s consciousness. That a fish does not know that you exist does not mean you do not exist in reality. That you do not know that the fish does not exist does not mean that fish does not exist in reality. Good grief, who screwed up your metaphysics like this?
“Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed.”
This means that man does not create reality and can achieve his values only by making his decisions in agreement with the facts of reality.
I think you watched The Matrix too many times.
That is a very good point.
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Originally Posted by Kahlif
Dead philosophers are aware of the ultimate reality but can't come back to tell you about it.
Prove objectively how did you know that?
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[23.99-100] Until when death overtakes one of them, he says: Send me back, my Lord, send me back; haply I may do good in that which I have left. By no means! it is a (mere) word that he speaks; and before them is a barrier until the day they are raised.
It's too late for those philosophers who are now aware of the ultimate reality to tell you about it.
23:99-100 is quoted from the Quran.
The Quran is claimed to be authored by God.
But God do not exists.
You admit your believe in God is based on faith.
Faith is belief WITHOUT proofs nor justifiable reasons.
Therefore what is asserted in 23:99-100 is mere speculations on your part, i.e. based on faith not proofs.
Your assertions re 23:99-100 cannot be credible because it is not based on proofs.
If you insist there is an ultimate reality, then present and prove it exists.
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