Everybody is born a Muslim (hell, atheist, human, language)
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All I really see here is an argument that is destined not to be resolved because no one can agree on definitions.
To some, being a Muslim is active participation in a particular cultural or "religious" organization.
To others, being a Muslim is the natural state of Creation.
To some, "submission to God" means a personal worship of a deity specific to one cultural group.
To others, it means accepting one's place in the universe and living according to this knowledge.
To some, leaving Islam means renouncing participation in said cultural group. It's the outward expression that matters, and if he or she commits certain deeds or refrains from doing other deeds, they can be judged Muslim or not, or even be executed if they live in certain areas with laws about it.
To others, "leaving Islam" is the willful rejection of the natural order of things, due to obstinacy or pride, etc. It may or may not involve outward rejection of religious participation as well, but truly only God can know what lays inside someone's heart, so one cannot judge another person's stance.
People can go back and forth arguing about these topics without getting to the heart of the matter. Definitions need to be agreed upon first, I think, in order to be able to be on the same page.
If one has read the whole-Quran more than 50 times, one will understand what Allah's definition of a Muslim.
A slave of Allah or others cannot decide on their own who is a Muslim.
I have read the Quran more than 50 times and from the Quran I understand the definition of who is a Muslim to be;
A Muslim is a person who has entered into a covenant with Allah by affirming the shahada or its like and submitting [islam] to Allah.
Read all the verses which has the element 'covenant' and together with other relevant verses one will understand 'who is a Muslim' based on the overall context of the Quran. Here is one verse where the implication is obvious;
2:27 Those who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it, and sever that which Allah ordered to be joined, and (who) make mischief in the earth: Those are they who are the losers.
Elsewhere in the Quran, one will note a Muslims has to ratify* the covenant with Allah.
Not necessary literally but by deeds that signify ratification.
Last edited by Continuum; 06-06-2016 at 09:58 PM..
Point A is in Error. the covenant with Allaah(swt) can be one sided being only the promises of Allaah(swt) with no participation of the Muslim. Tthis will be in cases where the individual for any reason, not the individuals fault and beyond his control, is not capable of having knowledge of Allaah(swt) ot the ability to be a participant. Islam while being called a religion in english, does not meet the definition of religion. Iy is a De'en a word that has no English equivalent. You are trying to define Islam as a religion, and it does not meet the definition. When you try to pound a square peg into a round hole one or both gets deformed.
Participation on the individual's part is only required when the person is not incapacitated by choice, has the ability to sincerely submit to Allaah of his own free will and with full knowledge of what his choices are.
And we do not know who is a Muslim, we might be able to surmise a baby and an incapicitated person is, but we have no way of knowing for fact if they do not have the ability to make a free-will, sincere knowledgeable choice. We probably are correct in assuming a baby can't, but that is opinion and not provable fact. I believe all babies and people that are incapacitated by reasons not their fault, are Muslim. But that is my belief, I do not know.
While we do believe all babies are born Muslim,we do not know at what point they have the ability to reject being Muslim. It could be milliseconds after birth or it could be years. My opinion is it will be years, but that again is opinion, I can not sayI know.
You are totally wrong on the above point.
A 'covenant' is fundamentally a 'contract' albeit a spiritual contract between God and the believer.
It is ridiculous to have a contract that is comprised only one party.
A contract or covenant in this case, MUST comprised two parties.
In the case of Islam, Allah made the offer and terms in the Quran, it for the other party to accept by 'signing' the covenant via submission and affirming the 'Shahada.'
'Islam is a religion' as 'diamond is merely carbon' [charcoal, coal, pencil lead].
All religions whilst has different forms can be reduced to one common concept with similar properties.
e.g. untitled
There is nothing special with the term 'Deen.'
Again the common factor within "Deen" in Islam is the same with 'Dharma' in Eastern Religion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma
The difference is Islam bastardize this pristine concept of humanity by polluting this core element of humanity with evil laden elements of various degrees.
Woodrow LI: And we do not know who is a Muslim,
This is intellectually bad.
A Muslim by definition is,
A Muslim is a person who has entered into a covenant with Allah by affirming the shahada or its like and submitting [islam] to Allah.
Note my justifications for this definition in the above post.
Note this thread I raised. Who is a Muslim??
A 'covenant' is fundamentally a 'contract' albeit a spiritual contract between God and the believer.
It is ridiculous to have a contract that is comprised only one party.
A contract or covenant in this case, MUST comprised two parties.
In the case of Islam, Allah made the offer and terms in the Quran, it for the other party to accept by 'signing' the covenant via submission and affirming the 'Shahada.'
'Islam is a religion' as 'diamond is merely carbon' [charcoal, coal, pencil lead].
All religions whilst has different forms can be reduced to one common concept with similar properties.
e.g. untitled
There is nothing special with the term 'Deen.'
Again the common factor within "Deen" in Islam is the same with 'Dharma' in Eastern Religion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma
The difference is Islam bastardize this pristine concept of humanity by polluting this core element of humanity with evil laden elements of various degrees.
Woodrow LI: And we do not know who is a Muslim,
This is intellectually bad.
A Muslim by definition is,
A Muslim is a person who has entered into a covenant with Allah by affirming the shahada or its like and submitting [islam] to Allah.
Note my justifications for this definition in the above post.
Note this thread I raised. Who is a Muslim??
I better clarify this:
Quote:
Woodrow LI: And we do not know who is a Muslim,
This is intellectually bad.
A Muslim by definition is,
A Muslim is a person who has entered into a covenant with Allah by affirming the shahada or its like and submitting [islam] to Allah.
Note my justifications for this definition in the above post.
Note this thread I raised. Who is a Muslim??
While we can identify the characteristics of what makes one a Muslim and state What the Qur'an defines as a Muslim. We can not point to any person and know if that person is Muslim. We can identify if the person is performing the known aspects of Islam.but we have no way of knowing if they are doing so with Free Will, Sincerity and to the best of their ability. therefore we have no way of knowing if the person is actually a Muslim. Even though we know the criteria to be one. We can not see into another persons sincerity, believes and intent. the best we can say is they a[ear to be Muslim.
but looks can be deceiving. A hypocrite will appear to be a very devout and sincere Muslim but in their heart and intentions be living a lie to put on an appearance.
I better clarify this:
While we can identify the characteristics of what makes one a Muslim and state What the Qur'an defines as a Muslim. We can not point to any person and know if that person is Muslim. We can identify if the person is performing the known aspects of Islam.but we have no way of knowing if they are doing so with Free Will, Sincerity and to the best of their ability. therefore we have no way of knowing if the person is actually a Muslim. Even though we know the criteria to be one. We can not see into another persons sincerity, believes and intent. the best we can say is they a[ear to be Muslim.
but looks can be deceiving. A hypocrite will appear to be a very devout and sincere Muslim but in their heart and intentions be living a lie to put on an appearance.
However a person can not be a Muslim without being a Genuine and Sincere Muslim.
Abû Ruqayyah Tamîm b. `Aws al-Dârî relates that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Religion is Sincerity.”
We asked: “To whom, O Messenger of Allah?”
He said: “To Allah, His Book, His Messenger, and the leaders of the Muslims and to the common Muslim.” [Sahîh Muslim]
The meaning of ‘Religion is sincerity’:
The terms in both the subject and the predicate of this sentence are categorical. This conveys in Arabic an all-inclusive meaning. It is as if the Prophet (peace be upon him) had said: “Religion is naught but sincerity.”
This is a very weighty statement showing the importance of sincerity in Islam. It brings us immediately to ask the question that the Companions asked: Sincerity to whom? The Prophet (peace be upon him) responded by mentioning five things to which Muslims must be sincere. We shall briefly touch upon each of these.
Sincerity to Allah:
Being sincere to Allah is of paramount importance in Islam. There are two aspects to this sincerity. The first of these is sincerity in worship. We must worship Allah alone, offering all of our devotions to him and to no other. The second is sincerity in our belief. We must have absolute faith that Allah alone is our Creator, our Sustainer, and our Lord.
Allah says: “They were not commanded but that they should worship Allah sincerely and worship none but Him, and that they should perform prayer and pay Zakâh. That is the right religion.” [Sûrah Al-Bayyinah: 5] “Religion is Sincerity†| IslamToday - English
However a person can not be a Muslim without being a Genuine and Sincere Muslim.
Abû Ruqayyah Tamîm b. `Aws al-Dârî relates that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Religion is Sincerity.”
We asked: “To whom, O Messenger of Allah?”
He said: “To Allah, His Book, His Messenger, and the leaders of the Muslims and to the common Muslim.” [Sahîh Muslim]
The meaning of ‘Religion is sincerity’:
The terms in both the subject and the predicate of this sentence are categorical. This conveys in Arabic an all-inclusive meaning. It is as if the Prophet (peace be upon him) had said: “Religion is naught but sincerity.”
This is a very weighty statement showing the importance of sincerity in Islam. It brings us immediately to ask the question that the Companions asked: Sincerity to whom? The Prophet (peace be upon him) responded by mentioning five things to which Muslims must be sincere. We shall briefly touch upon each of these.
Sincerity to Allah:
Being sincere to Allah is of paramount importance in Islam. There are two aspects to this sincerity. The first of these is sincerity in worship. We must worship Allah alone, offering all of our devotions to him and to no other. The second is sincerity in our belief. We must have absolute faith that Allah alone is our Creator, our Sustainer, and our Lord.
Allah says: “They were not commanded but that they should worship Allah sincerely and worship none but Him, and that they should perform prayer and pay Zakâh. That is the right religion.” [Sûrah Al-Bayyinah: 5] “Religion is Sincerity†| IslamToday - English
The point here there are two perspective to this;
1. Muslim in the "eyes" of Allah and
2. Muslim in the "eyes" of humans in human society.
Your problem is you are conflating the two issues.
1. Muslim in the "eyes" of Allah
Whether a person is really a genuine and sincere Muslim within himself or herself will be decided by Allah. Therefore only Allah can make such a judgment.
As a human you cannot be involved in this affair at all.
2. Muslim in the "eyes" of humans in human society.
While no humans will be able to know with certainty whether anyone is a genuine Muslim or not, human has no choice but they still have to determine whether a person is a Muslim or not.
As such the best and conventional way is to refer to the Quran and establish the conventional definition of who is a Muslim.
Such a definition of 'who is a Muslim' is pertinent for many reasons, e.g.
1. To enable others to know a Muslim so that they can respect his beliefs, e.g. when they have to be excused to pray 5 times a day during work, sports, meetings, etc.
2. To give consideration to whoever is a Muslim when he/she/they are fasting,
3. In a non-Muslim country to decide whether there are sufficient Muslims to built a mosque for them to pray.
4. There are many other reasons why we need to know who is a Muslim from the social perspective so that considerations will be given to them and their beliefs.
This is why the definition of "who is a Muslim" is so critical from the human and social perspective.
As far as who is a Muslim from Allah's perspective, that is none of anyone or Muslims' business and it should be left to Allah who will know what to do if anyone is pretending to be a Muslim for whatever the reason.
Therefore it is very critical we must establish the conventional meaning of who is a Muslim.
1. Muslim in the "eyes" of Allah and
2. Muslim in the "eyes" of humans in human society.
Your problem is you are conflating the two issues.
1. Muslim in the "eyes" of Allah
Whether a person is really a genuine and sincere Muslim within himself or herself will be decided by Allah. Therefore only Allah can make such a judgment.
As a human you cannot be involved in this affair at all.
2. Muslim in the "eyes" of humans in human society.
While no humans will be able to know with certainty whether anyone is a genuine Muslim or not, human has no choice but they still have to determine whether a person is a Muslim or not.
As such the best and conventional way is to refer to the Quran and establish the conventional definition of who is a Muslim.
Such a definition of 'who is a Muslim' is pertinent for many reasons, e.g.
1. To enable others to know a Muslim so that they can respect his beliefs, e.g. when they have to be excused to pray 5 times a day during work, sports, meetings, etc.
2. To give consideration to whoever is a Muslim when he/she/they are fasting,
3. In a non-Muslim country to decide whether there are sufficient Muslims to built a mosque for them to pray.
4. There are many other reasons why we need to know who is a Muslim from the social perspective so that considerations will be given to them and their beliefs.
This is why the definition of "who is a Muslim" is so critical from the human and social perspective.
As far as who is a Muslim from Allah's perspective, that is none of anyone or Muslims' business and it should be left to Allah who will know what to do if anyone is pretending to be a Muslim for whatever the reason.
Therefore it is very critical we must establish the conventional meaning of who is a Muslim.
Get my point?
Point 2 is correct.As we can not know who is a Muslim we have to accept every one who says he is Muslim as being Muslim. But we will never know if they actually are. We have no membership, a person does not join Islam.
If yu were to tell me you are a Muslim I would accept you as being a Muslim even though I am fairly certain you do not believe Allaah(swt) exists.
Once a person says they are Muslim they have to be accepted as being Muslim. It is virtually impossible for us to prove they are not after they have said they are. We could point out and say their actions are not Islamic and address the actions, but can not say the person is not Muslim. (Unless the person does non-Islamic acts, repeatedly after being told the actions are not Islamic
It takes a considerable amount of proof to indicate a person, that said he is Muslim, is not Muslim, unless they them self say they are not Muslim. However, if they had ever said they were Muslim they would be assumed to be an apostate, it they say they are not a Muslim, even if they claim they lied when they said they were.
Now from a social perspective, there is no centralized social standards for Muslims, there is no such thing as an "Islamic Culture"
Point 2 is correct.As we can not know who is a Muslim we have to accept every one who says he is Muslim as being Muslim. But we will never know if they actually are. We have no membership, a person does not join Islam.
If yu were to tell me you are a Muslim I would accept you as being a Muslim even though I am fairly certain you do not believe Allaah(swt) exists.
If I inform you now that I am a Muslim, based on average intelligence, you should doubt due to the circumstance and contexts surrounding my announcement due to the following;
1. See "Location" on the top right hand corner of my posts, it is stated 'Not-a-theist' and I have not changed it.
2. All the threads and posting I have raised and posted indicate I am not a Muslim.
Therefore even if you accept my declaration I am a Muslim you should take it as 0.001% probability and increase your confidence level if I changed "Location" to 'Theist' or 'Muslim'.
Then you will increase your confidence level and increase further based on the contents of my posts, even then your confidence level should be raised to say not more than 40%.
You will need to collect more evidence to increase further to say 50%, 60% but you can never reached a confidence level of 100% I am a Muslim.
Even with you I cannot be sure you are 100% a Muslim. You and Khalif could be pretending to be Muslims to post in this forum for whatever the reason.
It is only Allah [all knowing] who knows the real intention in your mind.
Quote:
Once a person says they are Muslim they have to be accepted as being Muslim. It is virtually impossible for us to prove they are not after they have said they are. We could point out and say their actions are not Islamic and address the actions, but can not say the person is not Muslim. (Unless the person does non-Islamic acts, repeatedly after being told the actions are not Islamic
In the eyes of humans and not Allah;
Once a person says they are Muslim - we cannot accept them as a 100% true Muslim instantly but we have to place some confidence levels on our judgment based on the available evidence.
But in general once it is evident a person has declared and affirmed the Shahada we can say that person is a 51% Muslim until proven otherwise.
Then we gather other evidences to assess to what extent is the person a Muslim.
Quote:
It takes a considerable amount of proof to indicate a person, that said he is Muslim, is not Muslim, unless they them self say they are not Muslim. However, if they had ever said they were Muslim they would be assumed to be an apostate, it they say they are not a Muslim, even if they claim they lied when they said they were.
As I had stated in my earlier post, the most critical consideration to discuss whether a person is a Muslim or not is to be totally are of this two perspective and ensure we do not conflate them when present our views, i.e.
1. Muslim in the "eyes" of Allah and
2. Muslim in the "eyes" of humans in human society.
The above two perspectives are very critical to ensure our views make sense.
In the "eyes" of Allah, there is no issue because Allah is all-knowing.
In the 'eyes' of society then one need various social objective evidence but there is no 100% certainty a person is a genuine Muslim. Legally [where Islamic Law applies] then there are legal conditions to qualify one as a Muslim.
Quote:
Now from a social perspective, there is no centralized social standards for Muslims, there is no such thing as an "Islamic Culture"
Agree there is no centralized authority to make any ultimate judgment for all Muslims.
But to decide who is a Muslim, we can rely on the Quran, i.e. the words of Allah to set a standard as to 'Who is a Muslim?'
It is obvious Allah has set the definition for Who is a Muslim.
It is obvious from the Quran, a person is a Muslim once the person has declared and affirm the Shahada [essentially that two critical elements] which implied submission as well.
What is Islamic Culture is not a significant issue.
What is critical is for a Muslim who has entered into a covenant [spiritual contract] with Allah to comply with all the relevant terms and conditions of the covenant which is in the Quran and no where else.
That is obvious because once any contract is signed the parties to the contract must comply to all the terms and conditions where applicable within that signed-contract and no where else. In a contract, if there are new conditions outside the existing contract, the parties concern must agree and sign for the changes.
In the case of covenant with Allah there is no room for changes to the covenant once it is agreed.
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