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Old 06-02-2016, 12:08 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here are 10 translations [I have access to 45+] of verse 2:219
Muhammad Asad
THEY WILL ASK thee about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: "In both there is great evil as well as some benefit for man; but the evil which they cause is greater than the benefit which they bring." And they will ask thee as to what they should spend [in God's cause]. Say: "Whatever you can spare." In this way God makes clear unto you His messages, so that you might reflect zoom

M. M. Pickthall
They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous. Thus Allah maketh plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect. zoom

Shakir
They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder zoom

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider- zoom

Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar
They ask thee about intoxicants and gambling. Say: In both of them there is deplorable sin and profits for humanity. And their sin is more deplorable than what is profitable. And they ask thee how much they should spend. Say: The extra. Thus, God makes manifest His signs to you so that perhaps you will reflect zoom

Wahiduddin Khan
They ask you [Prophet] about intoxicants and gambling. Say, There is great sin in both, although they have some benefit for people: but their harm is greater than their benefit. They ask you what they should spend [in Gods cause]. Say, Whatever is surplus to your needs. Thus God makes His commandments clear to you so that you may reflect zoom

T.B.Irving
They will ask you about liquor and gambling. SAY: In each of them there lies serious vice as well as some benefits for mankind. Yet their vice is greater than their usefulness." They may ask you what to spend. SAY: "As much as you can spare!" Thus God explains His signs to you so that you may meditate zoom

Safi Kaskas
They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say, "There is great sin in them, and also some benefit for humankind. The sin is greater than the benefit." They ask you what they should contribute. Say, "Whatever you can possibly give." Thus God makes signs clear to you so that you might think about zoom

[Al-Muntakhab]
They ask you, O Muhammad, about intoxicants and gambling. Say to them: "They both involve a major sin as well as some advantages, but their evil outweighs their advantages." And they ask you how to spend in benevolence! Say to them: "Spend in benevolence and benefaction of what you can spare in excess of your actual requirements." Thus, Allah elucidates to you people His revelations and ordinances that you may hopefully consider the consequences.
I want to discuss the translation of
wamanāfiʿu وَمَنَافِعُ ن ف ع

nafʿihimā نَفْعِهِمَا ن ف ع

from the root
Nun-Fa-Ayn
to profit, do good, be useful, beneficial.
From the above the two words are translated variously as 'benefits' 'profit' 'advantage' 'usefulness.'

Khalif claimed نَفْعِهِمَا ن ف ع refer to profit arising from selling of alcohol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
Therefore, LOSS is through GREAT SIN and PROFIT through selling alcohol is less than the SIN.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/44255908-post42.html
What are your views, should نَفْعِهِمَا ن ف ع refer to 'profit re selling of alcohol or various 'benefits' as indicated by most of the translators?
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Old 06-02-2016, 01:50 AM
 
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No safe alcohol limit, new guidelines to say | Society | The Guardian

No safe alcohol limit, new guidelines to say

"The guidelines are to say there is no safe alcohol limit and even drinking small amounts could cause illnesses including cancer."

Therefore, the only benefit of alcohol and gambling is to those who make profits out of the business of selling alcohol or running a casino.

If someone is not sure as to what is the Arabic word for monetary profit, ask an Arabic speaker before discounting monetary profit of wine selling regarding this verse.

On the Day of Judgment, what will count is the balance between good deeds and evil deeds. If good deeds are heavier, you will benefit. If evil deeds are heavier, you will deserve the same. As you sow so shall you reap. Therefore, if the sin is greater than any profit or benefit, the net is only loss. Why would someone aim for net loss in any business if loss in business is greater than profit?

I have never heard any businessman carrying on in a loss making business simply because despite the net loss he makes some profit here and there. It would be silly for him to ignore the greater losses.
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Old 06-02-2016, 01:57 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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@Khalif, re your point "No safe alcohol limit"
I have countered earlier in another posts, here's the repeat;

Yet the same Dame Sally Davies advised the following;
Chief Medical Officer Professor Dame Sally Davies said: "Drinking any level of alcohol regularly carries a health risk for anyone, but if men and women limit their intake to no more than 14 units a week it keeps the risk of illness like cancer and liver disease low."
There is no 'safe' limit for alcohol consumption, medical chiefs warn
Again you are ignorant of general knowledge and take the point too the extreme based on your ignorance. Note this point;

In other words, the "No safe alcohol limit" is no different from "No Air Travel is 100% Safe" and applicable to anything that has some degree of risks. So in line with your argument are you insisting there is no benefits to air travel and no one should travel by air.

The point is despite the risks, there are benefits of various kinds with small consumption of alcohol.
This what the Quran meant in 2:219, i.e. there is 'profit' i.e. net benefits with the consumption of alcohol despite drinking it being a GREAT SIN when taken to the extreme.

There is a metaphorical "profit" if one do not drink alcohol to the extreme. There are many people who merely take a small amount of wine and other medicinal alcoholic in a day or before they sleep.
Note the health benefits of red wines;
10 Health Benefits of Red Wine | Eat This!
This is supported by the Quran where wine is available in Paradise.

It is only a metaphorical LOSS if one drink to the extreme, get drunk every hour and every day to the extent of brain, organs and body damages that end up with diseases.
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Old 06-02-2016, 02:05 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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@Khalif,

Out of the 45+ English translations, most of them do not use the term 'profit' but rather 'benefit' or some words similar to 'benefit'.

What is your counter 'benefit' is wrong in translating وَمَنَافِعُ ن ف ع in this context?


Note there are many other verses where Allah use the term وَمَنَافِعُ ن ف ع as benefit and not profit as monetary in selling or actual commerce.
2:219
يَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الْخَمْرِ وَالْمَيْسِرِ قُلْ فِيهِمَا إِثْم ٌ كَبِير ٌ وَمَنَافِعُ لِلنَّاسِ وَإِثْمُهُمَا أَكْبَرُ مِنْ نَفْعِهِمَا وَيَسْأَلُونَكَ مَاذَا يُنفِقُونَ قُلِ الْعَفْوَ كَذَلِكَ يُبَيِّنُ اللَّهُ لَكُمُ الآيَاتِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَفَكَّرُونَ
Yas'alūnaka `Ani Al-Khamri Wa Al-Maysiri Qul Fīhimā 'Ithmun Kabīrun Wa Manāfi`u Lilnnāsi Wa 'Ithmuhumā 'Akbaru Min Naf`ihimā Wa Yas'alūnaka Mādhā Yunfiqūna Quli Al-`Afwa Kadhālika Yubayyinu Allāhu Lakumu Al-'Āyāti La`allakum Tatafakkarūna

They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say: "In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say: "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.

4:11
يُوصِيكُمُ اللَّهُ فِي أَوْلاَدِكُمْ لِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الأُنثَيَيْنِ فَإِنْ كُنَّ نِسَاء ً فَوْقَ اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُنَّ ثُلُثَا مَا تَرَكَ وَإِنْ كَانَتْ وَاحِدَة ً فَلَهَا النِّصْفُ وَلِأَبَوَيْهِ لِكُلِّ وَاحِد ٍ مِنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ مِمَّا تَرَكَ إِنْ كَانَ لَه ُُ وَلَد ٌ فَإِنْ لَمْ يَكُنْ لَه ُُ وَلَد ٌ وَوَرِثَهُ~ُ أَبَوَاه ُُ فَلِأَمِّهِ الثُّلُثُ فَإِنْ كَانَ لَهُ~ُ إِخْوَة ٌ فَلِأَمِّهِ السُّدُسُ مِنْ بَعْدِ وَصِيَّة ٍ يُوصِي بِهَا أَوْ دَيْن ٍ آبَاؤُكُمْ وَأَبْنَاؤُكُمْ لاَ تَدْرُونَ أَيُّهُمْ أَقْرَبُ لَكُمْ نَفْعا ً فَرِيضَة ً مِنَ اللَّهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيماً حَكِيما ً
Yūşīkumu Allāhu Fī 'Awlādikum Lildhdhakari Mithlu Ĥažži Al-'Unthayayni Fa'in Kunna Nisā'an Fawqa Athnatayni Falahunna Thuluthā Mā Taraka Wa 'In Kānat Wāĥidatan Falahā An-Nişfu Wa Li'abawayhi Likulli Wāĥidin Minhumā As-Sudusu Mimmā Taraka 'In Kāna Lahu Waladun Fa'in Lam Yakun Lahu Waladun Wa Warithahu 'Abawāhu Fali'ammihi Ath-Thuluthu Fa'in Kāna Lahu 'Ikhwatun Fali'ammihi As-Sudusu Min Ba`di Waşīyatin Yūşī Bihā 'Aw Daynin 'Ābā'uukum Wa 'Abnā'uukum Lā Tadrūna 'Ayyuhum 'Aqrabu Lakum Naf`āan FarīĐatan Mina Allāhi 'Inna Allāha Kāna `Alīmāan Ĥakīmāan

God directs you regarding the inheritance of your children: "To the male shall be as that given to two females. If they are women, more than two, then they will have two thirds of what is inherited. And if she is only one, then she will have one half. And to his parents, each one of them shall have one sixth of what is inherited, if he has a child. If he has no child and his parents are the heirs, then to his mother is one third; if he has siblings then to his mother is one sixth. All after a will is carried through or a debt. Your parents and your children, you do not know which are closer to you in benefit, a directive from God, for God is Knowledgeable, Wise."

5:76
قُلْ أَتَعْبُدُونَ مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ مَا لاَ يَمْلِكُ لَكُمْ ضَرّا ً وَلاَ نَفْعا ً وَاللَّهُ هُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ
Qul 'Ata`budūna Min Dūni Allāhi Mā Lā Yamliku Lakum Đarrāan Wa Lā Naf`āan Wa Allāhu Huwa As-Samī`u Al-`Alīmu

Say: "Do you serve other than God what cannot harm you or benefit you?" God is the Hearer, the Knower.

7:188
قُلْ لاَ أَمْلِكُ لِنَفْسِي نَفْعا ً وَلاَ ضَرّا ً إِلاَّ مَا شَاءَ اللَّهُ وَلَوْ كُنتُ أَعْلَمُ الْغَيْبَ لاَسْتَكْثَرْتُ مِنَ الْخَيْرِ وَمَا مَسَّنِيَ السُّوءُ إِنْ أَنَا إِلاَّ نَذِير ٌ وَبَشِير ٌ لِقَوْم ٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ
Qul Lā 'Amliku Linafsī Naf`āan Wa Lā Đarrāan 'Illā Mā Shā'a Allāhu Wa Law Kuntu 'A`lamu Al-Ghayba Lāstakthartu Mina Al-Khayri Wa Mā Massaniya As-Sū'u 'In 'Anā 'Illā Nadhīrun Wa Bashīrun Liqawmin Yu'uminūna

Say: "I do not possess for myself any benefit or harm, except what God wills. And if I could know the future, then I would have increased my good fortune, and no harm would have come to me. I am but a warner and a bearer of good news to a people who believe."

10:49
قُلْ لاَ أَمْلِكُ لِنَفْسِي ضَرّا ً وَلاَ نَفْعا ً إِلاَّ مَا شَاءَ اللَّهُ لِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَجَل ٌ إِذَا جَاءَ أَجَلُهُمْ فَلاَ يَسْتَأْخِرُونَ سَاعَة ً وَلاَ يَسْتَقْدِمُونَ
Qul Lā 'Amliku Linafsī Đarrāan Wa Lā Naf`āan 'Illā Mā Shā'a Allāhu Likulli 'Ummatin 'Ajalun 'Idhā Jā'a 'Ajaluhum Falā Yasta'khirūna Sā`atan Wa Lā Yastaqdimūna

Say: "I do not possess for myself any harm or benefit except what God wills. For every nation is a time. When their time comes, they cannot delay it one hour nor advance it."

13:16
قُلْ مَنْ رَبُّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ قُلِ اللَّهُ قُلْ أَفَاتَّخَذْتُمْ مِنْ دُونِهِ~ِ أَوْلِيَاءَ لاَ يَمْلِكُونَ لِأنفُسِهِمْ نَفْعا ً وَلاَ ضَرّا ً قُلْ هَلْ يَسْتَوِي الأَعْمَى وَالْبَصِيرُ أَمْ هَلْ تَسْتَوِي الظُّلُمَاتُ وَالنُّور أَمْ جَعَلُوا لِلَّهِ شُرَكَاءَ خَلَقُوا كَخَلْقِه ِِ فَتَشَابَهَ الْخَلْقُ عَلَيْهِمْ قُلِ اللَّهُ خَالِقُ كُلِّ شَيْء ٍ وَهُوَ الْوَاحِدُ الْقَهَّارُ
Qul Man Rabbu As-Samāwāti Wa Al-'ArĐi Quli Allāhu Qul 'Afāttakhadhtum Min Dūnihi 'Awliyā'a Lā Yamlikūna Li'nfusihim Naf`āan Wa Lā Đarrāan Qul Hal Yastawī Al-'A`m Wa Al-Başīru 'Am Hal Tastawī Až-žulumātu Wa An-Nūr 'Am Ja`alū Lillāhi Shurakā'a Khalaqū Kakhalqihi Fatashābaha Al-Khalqu `Alayhim Quli Allāhu Khāliqu Kulli Shay'in Wa Huwa Al-Wāĥidu Al-Qahhāru

Say: "Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?" Say: "God." Say: "Have you taken besides Him allies who do not possess for themselves any benefit or harm?" Say: "Is the blind and the seer the same? Or do the darkness and the light equate? Or have they set up partners with God who have created like His creation, so the creations all seemed the same to them?" Say: "God has created all things, and He is the One, the Supreme."

20:89
أَفَلاَ يَرَوْنَ أَلاَّ يَرْجِعُ إِلَيْهِمْ قَوْلا ً وَلاَ يَمْلِكُ لَهُمْ ضَرّا ً وَلاَ نَفْعا ً
'Afalā Yarawna 'Allā Yarji`u 'Ilayhim Qawlāan Wa Lā Yamliku Lahum Đarrāan Wa Lā Naf`āan

Did they not see that it did not respond to them? Nor did it possess for them any harm or benefit?

22:13
يَدْعُوا لَمَنْ ضَرُّهُ~ُ أَقْرَبُ مِنْ نَفْعِه ِِ لَبِئْسَ الْمَوْلَى وَلَبِئْسَ الْعَشِيرُ
Yad`ū Laman Đarruhu 'Aqrabu Min Naf`ihi Labi'sa Al-Mawl Wa Labi'sa Al-`Ashīru

He calls on those who harm him more than they benefit him. What a miserable patron, and what a miserable companion.

25:3
وَاتَّخَذُوا مِنْ دُونِهِ آلِهَة ً لاَ يَخْلُقُونَ شَيْئا ً وَهُمْ يُخْلَقُونَ وَلاَ يَمْلِكُونَ لِأنفُسِهِمْ ضَرّا ً وَلاَ نَفْعا ً وَلاَ يَمْلِكُونَ مَوْتا ً وَلاَ حَيَاة ً وَلاَ نُشُورا ً
Wa Attakhadhū Min Dūnihi 'Ālihatan Lā Yakhluqūna Shay'āan Wa Hum Yukhlaqūna Wa Lā Yamlikūna Li'nfusihim Đarrāan Wa Lā Naf`āan Wa Lā Yamlikūna Mawtāan Wa Lā Ĥayāatan Wa Lā Nushūrāan

And they took besides Him gods that do not create anything and are themselves created! And they do not possess for themselves any harm or benefit, nor do they possess death or life, nor resurrection.

34:42
فَالْيَوْمَ لاَ يَمْلِكُ بَعْضُكُمْ لِبَعْض ٍ نَفْعا ً وَلاَ ضَرّا ً وَنَقُولُ لِلَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا ذُوقُوا عَذَابَ النَّارِ الَّتِي كُنتُمْ بِهَا تُكَذِّبُون
Fālyawma Lā Yamliku Ba`Đukum Liba`Đin Naf`āan Wa Lā Đarrāan Wa Naqūlu Lilladhīna žalamū Dhūqū `Adhāba An-Nāri Allatī Kuntum Bihā Tukadhdhibūn

So today, none of you can help or harm one another. And We will say to the transgressors: Taste the retribution of the Fire that you used to deny.

48:11
سَيَقُولُ لَكَ الْمُخَلَّفُونَ مِنَ الأَعْرَابِ شَغَلَتْنَا أَمْوَالُنَا وَأَهْلُونَا فَاسْتَغْفِرْ لَنَا يَقُولُونَ بِأَلْسِنَتِهِمْ مَا لَيْسَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ قُلْ فَمَنْ يَمْلِكُ لَكُمْ مِنَ اللَّهِ شَيْئا ً إِنْ أَرَادَ بِكُمْ ضَرّاً أَوْ أَرَادَ بِكُمْ نَفْعا ً بَلْ كَانَ اللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيرا ً
Sayaqūlu Laka Al-Mukhallafūna Mina Al-'A`rābi Shaghalatnā 'Amwālunā Wa 'Ahlūnā Fāstaghfir Lanā Yaqūlūna Bi'alsinatihim Mā Laysa Fī Qulūbihim Qul Faman Yamliku Lakum Mina Allāhi Shay'āan 'In 'Arāda Bikum Đarrāan 'Aw 'Arāda Bikum Naf`āan Bal Kāna Allāhu Bimā Ta`malūna Khabīrāan

The Nomads who lagged behind will say to you: "We were preoccupied with our money and our family, so ask forgiveness for us." They say with their tongues what is not in their hearts. Say: "Who then would possess any power for you against God if He wanted harm to afflict you or if He wanted benefit for you?" No, God is fully Aware of everything you do.
The above use وَمَنَافِعُ ن ف ع as benefits [various] support my point that the وَمَنَافِعُ ن ف ع in 2:219 should be translated as 'benefit' 'advantage' 'usefulness' in spiritual [Paradise] context rather monetary profit as in selling and commercial trading.
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Old 06-02-2016, 02:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
@Khalif, re your point "No safe alcohol limit"
I have countered earlier in another posts, here's the repeat;

Yet the same Dame Sally Davies advised the following;
Chief Medical Officer Professor Dame Sally Davies said: "Drinking any level of alcohol regularly carries a health risk for anyone, but if men and women limit their intake to no more than 14 units a week it keeps the risk of illness like cancer and liver disease low."
There is no 'safe' limit for alcohol consumption, medical chiefs warn
Again you are ignorant of general knowledge and take the point too the extreme based on your ignorance.
Only an ignorant man will counter "no safe limit" with ""risk of illness like cancer and liver disease low".
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Old 06-02-2016, 02:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The above use وَمَنَافِعُ ن ف ع as benefits [various] support my point that the وَمَنَافِعُ ن ف ع in 2:219 should be translated as 'benefit' 'advantage' 'usefulness' in spiritual [Paradise] context rather monetary profit as in selling and commercial trading.
O.M.G. This is even worse than I first thought.

What kind of spiritual benefit of drinking alcohol and gambling is going to be to anyone on the Day of Judgment when SIN of these things is going to be GREATER than any benefit?
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Old 06-02-2016, 05:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What are your views, should نَفْعِهِمَا ن ف ع refer to 'profit re selling of alcohol or various 'benefits' as indicated by most of the translators?
Does it have to be either/or? I think that it could be broadly saying there are benefits, The pleasure of slight intoxication can be a benefit. Winning at gambling is a benefit. Gambling can be fun, which is a benefit. Drinking is a social bonding activity. Also, selling wine can be a career, which is a benefit.

Where Khalif went terribly wrong was when he tried to say that this:

"And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare."

had nothing to do with spending on gambling and drinking and referred to several verses previous about charity.
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Old 06-02-2016, 11:51 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Only an ignorant man will counter "no safe limit" with ""risk of illness like cancer and liver disease low".
You did not get the point.

What I have stated is the SAME PERSON, i.e. who stated,
"no safe limit"
also stated,'
if taken within limits, there is a lower risk of cancer and liver disease.

The Guardian quoted her as saying 'no safe limit' but
In the IBtimes articles, she added 'if within limit, there is a low risk of cancer and liver disease'.

I suggest you read the two articles slowly and don't jump to conclusions impulsively.
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Old 06-03-2016, 12:06 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
O.M.G. This is even worse than I first thought.

What kind of spiritual benefit of drinking alcohol and gambling is going to be to anyone on the Day of Judgment when SIN of these things is going to be GREATER than any benefit?
The point here is Allah admitted in 2:219 there are benefits in taking alcohol [for various purposes] but stated the sin is greater than the benefits.

Now if say someone has some sort of sufferings and taking alcohol do actually relieve that pain in the short term. In this case the person has committed a sin but because it was very necessary, temporary and taken in a small amount, Allah will accept any repentance and forgive.

On the other hand if another Muslim drinks a lot of alcohol everyday and got drunk, then Allah is not likely to forgive him/her.

As in the Quran, on Judgment Day, [provided no unpardonable sins] what counts is the net of the total of one's good and bad deeds are taken into account, so if there is sufficient good deeds to offset the minor consumption of alcohol there is no serious problem.

So what that which is worse than you first thought?

Point is you are not thoughtful at all!!
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Old 06-03-2016, 12:14 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Does it have to be either/or? I think that it could be broadly saying there are benefits, The pleasure of slight intoxication can be a benefit. Winning at gambling is a benefit. Gambling can be fun, which is a benefit. Drinking is a social bonding activity. Also, selling wine can be a career, which is a benefit.

Where Khalif went terribly wrong was when he tried to say that this:

"And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare."

had nothing to do with spending on gambling and drinking and referred to several verses previous about charity.
Perhaps Khalif did stray the point on 'spending.'

I was countering him re 'profit' in this 2:219
Shakir
2:219They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit.

And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder zoom
Khalif insisted 'profit' in above refer to profit on sale of alcohol which is actually his own invention and putting that into the mouth of Allah.

Obviously there are a lots of benefits from alcohol besides making profit [or loss] on sale of alcohol. But Khalif is only selective [& deceptive] in insisting on one benefit, i.e. profit on selling.

In many other verses, the Quran used the term 'profit' to various net-benefits of going to Paradise and never refer to selling of material things.
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