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Old 06-08-2016, 02:12 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
Reputation: 461

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What prompted me to raise this thread is this;



The day I declared my best friend kafir just so I could get a passport - Blogs - DAWN.COM

Note the Declaration in case of a Muslim at the bottom of the image.
A Muslim in Pakistan must declared Ahmadiyyas as kafir in order to get their passport.

Here is one comment from that article.

Quote:
It is shameful and it is exactly what the author describes as "the state-sponsored discrimination" of a minority. This unlawful law is certainly a result of some political deal with the so-called "islamic" parties and should be abolished immediately. Pakistani passport is a document to idetify a person as a Pakistani citizen and thatīs it. Why donīt they include some fundamental questions like "Do you belong to a terrorist organisation...etc." instead of irrelvant stuff? Our country suffers heavily under the "islamic" terrorism, because the majority in our society basically supports a completely wrong notion social behaviour marking it as "islamic". Donīt go and blame others - we are the main culprits.
I believe the following threads are useful to decide whether Ahmadiyyas are Muslims or not?

Who is a Muslim??

Everybody is born a Muslim

The irony is if Everyone is Born a Muslim why the Ahmadiyyas are not Muslims when they have declared and affirmed the Shahada albeit with some addition declarations which do not contra the Shahada at all?

Are Ahmadiyyas Muslims?
Your views?

Note as usual what is most interesting is the psychology that drives this controversy.
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Old 06-08-2016, 03:08 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,723 times
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There are two groups of Ahmadiyyas; Qadianis and Lahories.

Qadianis believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (born in Qadian India) was a prophet. They do not believe Muhammad to be the last prophet. This is the point that makes them go against the teaching of the Qur'an that Muhammad is the Last of the Prophets.

Lahories, and breakaway group, do not believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be a prophet. They are fine as Muslims. Many of them are more knowledgeable about Islam than ordinary run of the mill so-called Sunnis in Pakistan are.
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Old 06-08-2016, 05:35 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
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The first thing that needs to be decided is "Who is an Ahmaduyyat?{ There are Several groups that claim to be.

Qadianis
Lahorie
Ahmadiyya MuslimCommunity
Ahmadiyyat Germany


There are probably more divisions. each with differences. While they all claim to be Muslim Their actions not not always appear to be Islamic. Especially the Qadiani

I do not think we have sufficient knowledge to say they are not Muslims. Better to simply say some of their actions do not appear to be Islamic and explain why.

We as Muslims are obligated to gently point out errors we believe those/ professing to be Muslim, make and explain why we believe they are in error.

Our personal opinion does not matter regarding if a person is or is not Muslims. What is important is our personal opinions if the actions they do do are Islamic and if we believe they are not to point out, with validation, why that is our opinion.
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Old 06-08-2016, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There are two groups of Ahmadiyyas; Qadianis and Lahories.

Qadianis believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (born in Qadian India) was a prophet. They do not believe Muhammad to be the last prophet. This is the point that makes them go against the teaching of the Qur'an that Muhammad is the Last of the Prophets.

Lahories, and breakaway group, do not believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be a prophet. They are fine as Muslims. Many of them are more knowledgeable about Islam than ordinary run of the mill so-called Sunnis in Pakistan are.
As defined a person is a Muslim who has entered into a covenant with Allah when that person has declared and affirmed the Shahada which at the same time implied a feeling submission.
Who is a Muslim??

لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله
lā ʾilāha ʾillā-llāh, muḥammadur-rasūlu-llāh

1.There is no god but God.
2. Muhammad is the messenger of God
To be more Muslim, a Muslim will have to comply with terms and conditions of the covenant within the Quran [no where else].

I believe ALL Ahmadiyyas declared and affirm the Shahada as above.
Note the Shahada do not require to affirm Muhammad is the last or final messenger.
This point itself is controversial therefore cannot be an imperative requirement.
Therefore ALL Ahamadiyyas are technically and basically Muslims.

Quote:
I do not think we have sufficient knowledge to say they are not Muslims. Better to simply say some of their actions do not appear to be Islamic and explain why.

We as Muslims are obligated to gently point out errors we believe those/ professing to be Muslim, make and explain why we believe they are in error.

Our personal opinion does not matter regarding if a person is or is not Muslims. What is important is our personal opinions if the actions they do are Islamic and if we believe they are not to point out, with validation, why that is our opinion.
I believe you are very wrong here.

It is not only your personal opinion that matter but when the opinions of all Muslims are converged, good and evil impulses manifest from the inherent evil laden elements within the Quran.
While your opinion may be good but you cannot ignore the evil impulses that manifest from the same Allah, Quran and religion that you and all are abiding to.

There are 1.5 billion Muslims around the world where say 80% are moderate while naturally 20% are born with evil tendencies.
As with the Pareto Principle these 20% of evil prone [300 million ] are more significant than the good 80% in terms of impulses and actions.
This is why it is so common with terrors within History, where it only take a handful of evil prone persons at the top to influence the whole groups or Nations to cast terrible terrors and violence as with Napoleon, Stalin, Mao, Muhammad, etc. and their small group of devoted followers.

This is what is happening with Pakistan and many other Muslims Nations and groups where it is the evil laden elements in the Quran and martial ethos of Muhammad that manifest the above sort of evil, i.e. Governmental based discrimination of the Ahmadiyyas based on evil intentions.

The same is happening everywhere in the world within Muslims groups where SOME Muslims who are evil prone will be influenced and inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims and other Muslims they think are hypocrites and apostate.

If one were to think rationally, the ultimate root cause is from the much evil laden elements in the Quran and the martial ethos of Muhammad as the ideal exemplar that are the catalysts and triggers. Those 20% Muslims who are naturally born with evil tendencies and proclivities are not to be blamed directlyas it is not their fault to be born with evil tendencies. Obviously humanity must help this people to be have better control over their evil tendencies and this can be done sooner or later via effective self-developments techniques etc.
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