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Old 06-11-2016, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Woodrow LI and it I am not mistaken you as well [I have to find the post or do you agree to it] have been asserting there is no way to know who is a genuine Muslim because one can read the intent in the mind of another.

...
Actually you should have typed:

Woodrow LI and it I am not mistaken you as well [I have to find the post or do you agree to it] have been asserting there is no way to know who is a genuine Muslim because one cannot read the intent in the mind of another.

You had your answer already. Why push it any further? One can ask the same question of any other religion on the planet and the only thing that will be different is the book they follow.

Does me being able to read Arabic, to have read the Quran and Hadith with understanding (not need a tafsir), follow some the laws of Islam and live in a Arab country make me a "Genuine" Muslim or close to one?
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Old 06-11-2016, 11:36 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Actually you should have typed:

Woodrow LI and it [if] I am not mistaken you as well [I have to find the post or do you agree to it] have been asserting there is no way to know who is a genuine Muslim because one cannot read the intent in the mind of another.

You had your answer already. Why push it any further? One can ask the same question of any other religion on the planet and the only thing that will be different is the book they follow.

Does me being able to read Arabic, to have read the Quran and Hadith with understanding (not need a tafsir), follow some the laws of Islam and live in a Arab country make me a "Genuine" Muslim or close to one?
Thanks for the correction.

I think it is essential to raise the OP question because Woodrow LI often insisted in his responses 'No one can know who is a Muslim.'

This is in a way killing off the conversation regarding Muslims and Islam.

This is why I raise this OP to differentiate between;

1. Genuine Muslim - valid Only to Allah
2. Muslim-by-definition - related to Muslims and general public.

Therefore whilst we cannot know who is a Muslim as in 1, we can still know who is a Muslim based on 2.
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Old 06-12-2016, 01:54 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Thanks for the correction.

I think it is essential to raise the OP question because Woodrow LI often insisted in his responses 'No one can know who is a Muslim.'

This is in a way killing off the conversation regarding Muslims and Islam.
It's not killing off the conversation but making you realize that your definition of Muslim is not the same as the valid definition of Muslim.

Quote:
This is why I raise this OP to differentiate between;

1. Genuine Muslim - valid Only to Allah
2. Muslim-by-definition - related to Muslims and general public.
What is the difference between "Genuine Muslim" and "Muslim by definition"?

It just goes to show that your definition of Muslim is not the definition of a "Genuine Muslim" but of merely an assumed Muslim.

Quote:
Therefore whilst we cannot know who is a Muslim as in 1, we can still know who is a Muslim based on 2.
Therefore whilst you do not know who is a Genuine Muslim, you do assume in ignorance as to who is a Muslim through your assumed definition.
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Old 06-12-2016, 07:45 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
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In the Quran is says:
"He demonstrated good examples in all aspects of life, Allah says: 'You have indeed in the Apostle of Allah a beautiful pattern of (conduct) for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day and who engages much in the praise of Allah.' (Qur'an, 33:21)."

So, a good Muslim should at least own some slaves and have more than one wife.
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Old 06-12-2016, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It's not killing off the conversation but making you realize that your definition of Muslim is not the same as the valid definition of Muslim.

What is the difference between "Genuine Muslim" and "Muslim by definition"?

It just goes to show that your definition of Muslim is not the definition of a "Genuine Muslim" but of merely an assumed Muslim.

Therefore whilst you do not know who is a Genuine Muslim, you do assume in ignorance as to who is a Muslim through your assumed definition.
Note,

A 'Genuine Muslim' can only be known by the so claimed all-knowing Allah.
No humans can judge who is a "genuine" Muslim except Allah.
What wrong with that description?

My human definition of a Muslim is based on Allah's words and as far as the evidence goes.
Based on the context of the Quran, i.e. Allah's words, a Muslim-by-definition is a person who has entered into a covenant with Allah by affirming the Shahada with verifiable witnesses which implied submission. This is the basic requirements for any one to become a Muslim until proven otherwise.
This definition is indisputable.

Whether the person is a good Muslim as far as evidence go will depend on how much that Muslim has complied with the terms and conditions of the covenant.

Quote:
Therefore whilst you do not know who is a Genuine Muslim, you do assume in ignorance as to who is a Muslim through your assumed definition.
I admit I do not know who is a Genuine Muslim. Are you claiming you can know who is a Genuine Muslim?

There is no assumption here at all because a Muslim-by-definition is objective based on evidence which is verifiable until proven otherwise.
This is the same for all other similar cases because no humans can read the exact intention of another person.

Since no human can know who is a genuine Muslim, therefore it is necessary to do the best approach to find out who is a Muslim that is acceptable to any rational person. Such an approach is based on the concept of Muslim-by-definition based on the words of Allah in the Quran and no where else. A person is Muslim-by-definition until proven otherwise.
What is the issue with this? Don't just blabber, give me reasons why you think my views are not acceptable to you.
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Old 06-13-2016, 01:26 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
In the Quran is says:
"He demonstrated good examples in all aspects of life, Allah says: 'You have indeed in the Apostle of Allah a beautiful pattern of (conduct) for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day and who engages much in the praise of Allah.' (Qur'an, 33:21)."
No. The Qur'an does not say: "He demonstrated good examples in all aspects of life". There isn't even one verse that says so in those words.

As for the verse 33:21, it was revealed at a time when Meccans were attacking Muslims in Madina and some people had cold feet in defending Madina. The messenger of Allah was firm in his conviction when facing these attacks because he had hope in Alah and the Final Day, and was engaged in much praise of Allah. This the particular example they were all to emulate.

Quote:
So, a good Muslim should at least own some slaves and have more than one wife.
And those millions of Muslims today who do not have any slave or more than one wife not good Muslims?

Proof enough that unbelievers and some ignorant Muslims do not understand the Qur'an!
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Old 06-13-2016, 08:34 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No. The Qur'an does not say: "He demonstrated good examples in all aspects of life". There isn't even one verse that says so in those words.

As for the verse 33:21, it was revealed at a time when Meccans were attacking Muslims in Madina and some people had cold feet in defending Madina. The messenger of Allah was firm in his conviction when facing these attacks because he had hope in Alah and the Final Day, and was engaged in much praise of Allah. This the particular example they were all to emulate.

And those millions of Muslims today who do not have any slave or more than one wife not good Muslims?

Proof enough that unbelievers and some ignorant Muslims do not understand the Qur'an!
Come on. The Quran also says:

"And verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) are on an exalted standard of character." 68:4

Don't you agree with that?

And I think we know better about what happened with the Meccans.

Then the apostle heard that Abu Sufyan was coming from Syria with a large caravan of Qurish, containing their money and merchandise, accompanied by some thirty or forty men… When the Apostle heard about Abu Sufyan coming from Syria, he summoned the Muslims and said, “This is the Quraish caravan containing their property. Go out to attack it, perhaps Allah will give it as a prey.” (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 428)

When the Messenger of God (SAAS) heard that Abu Sufyan was arriving from Syria, he sent the Muslims out against them, saying, 'This caravan belongs to Quraysh, and will carry much wealth. Attack it; God may present it to you.' (Ibn Kathir v.II p.253)

And learn about Islam and slavery:

10 Facts About The Arab Enslavement Of Black People Not Taught In Schools - Atlanta Black Star

Of course slavery still exists in Islam.

Islamic Slavery and Racism | Frontpage Mag

The reason there is not so much slavery in Islam now is because of pressure from the West.

Muhammed owned and screwed and traded slaves.

"And verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) are on an exalted standard of character." 68:4
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No. The Qur'an does not say: "He demonstrated good examples in all aspects of life". There isn't even one verse that says so in those words.

As for the verse 33:21, it was revealed at a time when Meccans were attacking Muslims in Madina and some people had cold feet in defending Madina. The messenger of Allah was firm in his conviction when facing these attacks because he had hope in Alah and the Final Day, and was engaged in much praise of Allah. This the particular example they were all to emulate.

And those millions of Muslims today who do not have any slave or more than one wife not good Muslims?

Proof enough that unbelievers and some ignorant Muslims do not understand the Qur'an!
While 33:21 may be in one specific situation there are other verses when taken with 33:21 that project as an exemplar for Muslims to follow as the perfect example. Note the following verses;
30:30. So set thy purpose (O Muhammad) for religion as a man by nature upright the nature (framed) of Allah, in which He hath created man. There is no altering (the laws of) Allah's creation. That is the right religion, but most men know not.

68:4. And lo! Thou [Muhammad] art of a tremendous nature.
The point is this present a DUCK-RABBIT, i.e. two truths scenario for many Muslims to view Muhammad as a perfect example in all aspects of his life.
I may not agree with "in all aspects of his life" to the extent of every thing Muhammad did, but the problem is the imprecision and ambiguity of how the Quran presented its verses [actually by fallible humans not a God] facilitated different people to interpret their version as true and Allah is not around to judge who is right or wrong.

Now the fact is there are many [if 50% = 750 million] who try to imitate what prophet did as in the Quran and in the Ahadiths and one of the resultant is the terrible evils and violence in parallel with what Muhammad did in the Ahadith.
Now who on Earth can decide what they are doing is wrong? They will insist Muhammad is the exemplar approved by Allah as in stated in the Quran and expressed in the Ahadiths.

For Muslims who go all the way to own slaves and have many wives [4 limit] and concubines on the side, who on Earth can judge they are wrong?

Fortunately it is not the Quran and God's Law but human conscience and Law that can stop them and steer them to be better human beings.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:45 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
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A true Muslim is obliged to obey the provisions of the Koran and the Prophet

The normal Muslim is the one who does not abide by all the provisions of the Koran and not to obey His Messenger full
obedience

The normal Muslim turn into a true Muslim by circumstances
For this reason, it does not have a big difference between eventually
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Old 06-14-2016, 03:12 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
In the Quran is says:
"He demonstrated good examples in all aspects of life, Allah says: 'You have indeed in the Apostle of Allah a beautiful pattern of (conduct) for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day and who engages much in the praise of Allah.' (Qur'an, 33:21)."

So, a good Muslim should at least own some slaves and have more than one wife.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No. The Qur'an does not say: "He demonstrated good examples in all aspects of life". There isn't even one verse that says so in those words.

As for the verse 33:21, it was revealed at a time when Meccans were attacking Muslims in Madina and some people had cold feet in defending Madina. The messenger of Allah was firm in his conviction when facing these attacks because he had hope in Allah and the Final Day, and was engaged in much praise of Allah. This the particular example they were all to emulate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Come on. The Quran also says:

"And verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) are on an exalted standard of character." 68:4

Don't you agree with that?
Let's stick to the claim you made, and not jump to "also" by moving away from what you had claimed about the Qur'an.

You still haven't quoted a verse from the Qur'an that you claimed the Qur'an says, "He demonstrated good examples in all aspects of life".

Trying to divert to some other subject won't help you. You must demonstrate what you claimed the "Qur'an says" by quoting the verse in which the Qur'an says so.
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