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Old 06-09-2016, 02:30 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Woodrow LI regularly throw in the point that it is impossible to know who is a genuine Muslim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I better clarify this:

While we can identify the characteristics of what makes one a Muslim and state What the Qur'an defines as a Muslim.
We can not point to any person and know if that person is Muslim.
We can identify if the person is performing the known aspects of Islam but we have no way of knowing if they are doing so with Free Will, Sincerity and to the best of their ability. therefore we have no way of knowing if the person is actually a Muslim.

Even though we know the criteria to be one. We can not see into another persons sincerity, believes and intent. the best we can say is they a[ear to be Muslim.

but looks can be deceiving. A hypocrite will appear to be a very devout and sincere Muslim but in their heart and intentions be living a lie to put on an appearance.
I believe the confusion above is to the conflation of different issues and perspectives.

The question is not this,
We can not point to any person and know if that person is Muslim.
But the more appropriate point is this;
We can not point to any person and know if that person is GENUINE Muslim.

Note the word "Genuine".


The point here there are two perspectives to this issue;

1. Genuine Muslim in the "eyes" of Allah and
2. Muslim in the "eyes" of humans in human society.

In this post,
http://www.city-data.com/forum/44324024-post108.html
I have argued it is IMPOSSIBLE for any human to determine whether any Muslim is a genuine Muslim. Only Allah knows who is a Genuine Muslim.

If the above is the case, how can we determine whatever is claimed by Muslims [who are fallible humans] is genuine?
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Old 06-09-2016, 03:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If the above is the case, how can we determine whatever is claimed by Muslims [who are fallible humans] is genuine?
Read, and UNDERSTAND, the Qur'an. That way, you will know the answer. If you still do not know the answer, you do not understand the Qur'an.
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Old 06-09-2016, 01:27 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 660,944 times
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How to understand the Quran????
Your heart and your mind, or through other means????declaim heart
In the words of love
the Mind by evidence and logic
In whichever we understand Islam????
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Old 06-09-2016, 01:28 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 660,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Read, and UNDERSTAND, the Qur'an. That way, you will know the answer. If you still do not know the answer, you do not understand the Qur'an.
How to understand the Quran????
Your heart and your mind, or through other means????declaim heart
In the words of love
the Mind by evidence and logic
In whichever we understand Islam????
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Old 06-09-2016, 11:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Read, and UNDERSTAND, the Qur'an. That way, you will know the answer. If you still do not know the answer, you do not understand the Qur'an.
I was expecting a rational discussion not merely hand-waving empty calls.

Your rational views to the OP?
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Old 06-10-2016, 01:48 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Read, and UNDERSTAND, the Qur'an. That way, you will know the answer. If you still do not know the answer, you do not understand the Qur'an.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I was expecting a rational discussion not merely hand-waving empty calls.

Your rational views to the OP?
Read, and UNDERSTAND, the Qur'an. You will find the answer there.

Were the wandering Arabs in 49:14 genuine Muslims? Were the hypocrites who affirmed Shahada genuine Muslims:

[63.1] When the hypocrites come to you, they say: We bear witness that you are most surely Allah's messenger; and Allah knows that you are most surely His messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are surely liars.

How can you call them genuine Muslims despite them openly declaring that Muhammad is messenger of Allah?
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Old 06-10-2016, 02:02 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Read, and UNDERSTAND, the Qur'an. You will find the answer there.

Were the wandering Arabs in 49:14 genuine Muslims? Were the hypocrites who affirmed Shahada genuine Muslims:

[63.1] When the hypocrites come to you, they say: We bear witness that you are most surely Allah's messenger; and Allah knows that you are most surely His messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are surely liars.

How can you call them genuine Muslims despite them openly declaring that Muhammad is messenger of Allah?
That is the problem when you have only read the Quran 6-7 times rather than the minimal 50 times.

Don't try to pull a fast one me. Note this verse,

Quote:
9:99 And of the wandering Arabs there is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day, and taketh that which he expendeth and also the prayers of the messenger as acceptable offerings in the sight of Allah. Lo! verily it is an acceptable offering for them. Allah will bring them into His mercy. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
9:99 show there are wandering Arabs who are by technical definitions are Genuine Muslims - since this is stated by Allah and not by humans.
Therefore you cannot jump to the conclusion ALL wandering Arabs mentioned in the Quran are hypocrites unless specifically stated.

49:14 in the context of the related verses and the whole of the Quran, the wandering Arabs therein are Genuine Muslims by definition and confirmed by Allah's words in the Quran.

If you do not accept the wandering Arabs in 49:14 as Genuine Muslims as affirmed by Allah, then your assertion is blasphemous.
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Old 06-10-2016, 02:16 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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If it is impossible to know who is a genuine Muslim, how can any one or employers exercise considerations for Muslims?

Quote:
Ramadan: practical considerations for employers
United Kingdom June 2 2016
As the holy month of Ramadan approaches we consider the associated practical considerations for employers of Muslim employees, including dealing with holiday requests and possible health and safety issues.

Ramadan: practical considerations for employers - Lexology
How?
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Old 06-10-2016, 03:12 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is the problem when you have only read the Quran 6-7 times rather than the minimal 50 times.

Don't try to pull a fast one me. Note this verse,
I knew you can't understand the verses of the Qur'an! You can't see that whoever says Shahada by mouth but does not actually believe so is hypocrite; not genuine Muslim. It has been YOU who have been pulling the fast one in ignorance about who is a Muslim.

Quote:
9:99 show there are wandering Arabs who are by technical definitions are Genuine Muslims - since this is stated by Allah and not by humans.
Therefore you cannot jump to the conclusion ALL wandering Arabs mentioned in the Quran are hypocrites unless specifically stated.
I never stated "ALL" but only those in 49:14. 9:99 is about different wandering Arabs than those in 49:14 who did not have faith in there hearts.

Quote:
49:14 in the context of the related verses and the whole of the Quran, the wandering Arabs therein are Genuine Muslims by definition and confirmed by Allah's words in the Quran.
Nobody is a genuine Muslim who does not believe (have eeman) even if they pretend to submit.

Quote:
If you do not accept the wandering Arabs in 49:14 as Genuine Muslims as affirmed by Allah, then your assertion is blasphemous.
Not at all! They did not have eeman (did not really believe). All genuine Muslims must have eeman. Hypocrites and kuffar do not have eeman.
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Old 06-10-2016, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I knew you can't understand the verses of the Qur'an! You can't see that whoever says Shahada by mouth but does not actually believe so is hypocrite; not genuine Muslim. It has been YOU who have been pulling the fast one in ignorance about who is a Muslim.
Woodrow LI and it I am not mistaken you as well [I have to find the post or do you agree to it] have been asserting there is no way to know who is a genuine Muslim because one can read the intent in the mind of another.

Quote:
I never stated "ALL" but only those in 49:14. 9:99 is about different wandering Arabs than those in 49:14 who did not have faith in there hearts.
9:99 imply amongst there are wandering Arabs who are technically Muslims as confirmed by Allah.
Therefore All wandering Arabs cannot be hypocrites or non-Muslims.

I have argued in context of the verses the wandering Arabs were technically Muslims.

Quote:
Nobody is a genuine Muslim who does not believe (have eeman) even if they pretend to submit.
Note there is a big difference between a genuine Muslim and a Muslim by definition.
Only Allah knows who is a genuine Muslim. Humans cannot know who is a genuine Muslim because humans cannot read exactly what is in the mind of another human.

You, me or any others as humans cannot judge who is a genuine Muslim. Only Allah can do it. Therefore it is pointless of you, me or others to talk or attempt to find out who is a genuine Muslim.

The most you and other humans can do is to find out who is a Muslim by definition based on verses from the Quran.

Quote:
Not at all! They did not have eeman (did not really believe). All genuine Muslims must have eeman. Hypocrites and kuffar do not have eeman.
Who are you to decide and judge they are not Muslims or genuine Muslims? You do not have authority to do that.
According to the verses those wandering Arabs in 49:14 are Muslims-by-definition and confirmed in 49:17 by Allah. Since it is Allah who had confirmed it, the wandering Arabs in this case are genuine Muslims from Allah's perspective and you have to accept Allah's words.

Point here is you seem very bold to reject what is stated by Allah and put in your own words to interpret the wandering Arabs are not genuine Muslims. Actually you are arguing against Allah and not me. That is blasphemous.
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