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Old 06-11-2016, 12:23 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
I see no reason to doubt Khalif. I have known (in fact, only known) good and decent Muslims. There have been Christians who have done no better than these terrorists. Some 'Christians' and some 'Muslims' have been somewhat less than angelic. Who do you suppose the crusaders were? Who was it that burned people at the stake for obscure reasons? Those were the Godly and righteous 'Christians'.

That said, I am not excusing the behavior of these evil people. Neither do I fully agree with Khalif when he concludes that Islam is a religion of peace. Is Christianity a religion of peace?
As far as the potential for evil is concern one need to consider the following critical elements, i.e.

1. DNA wise ALL humans has the inherent potential to be evil.
2. A certain percentile [conservatively] 20% are born with active evil tendencies.
3. The doctrine of a religion has a no-holds-barred evil laden elements.

I am not a Christian but I am well aware whilst the NT do contain evil laden elements, the NT has an overriding PACIFIST maxim that restraints Christians from committing evils and violence. e.g. Love your enemies, give the other cheek, love this and that. Thus there is no way a Christian has any recourse to justify any evil acts in the name of Jesus or any verse in the NT due that overriding pacifist maxim.

If any Christians were to commit any religious related evils and violence it is because of the person[s] inherent human nature who was born with difficult to control evil impulses.

Thus Christianity is inherently not a religion of evils and violence.

On the other hand, the Quran do not has any overriding pacifist maxim but give sanction for Muslims to fight, kill and do what is necessary to defend their religions and themselves if there are threats from non-Muslims.
The problem is the "threats" in the Quran are ill defined and this leave room for those Muslims [not all] who are born with evil tendencies to be influenced and inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran to fight, kill and do whatever evils to non-Muslims and even Muslims other that from their own sect.

[as pointed out above],
Because the definition and explanation of what-is-threat to Islam is so vague in the Quran, SOME Muslims who are born with very sensitive triggers and evils tendencies are influenced and inspired by evil laden elements in the Quran to commit evils and violence on non-Muslims based on DUCK-RABBIT two truths scenario.
This is why even the drawing of cartoons will trigger SOME to riot and kill. Those who merely are critical [literally and intellectually] of Islam are also killed [nb: Bangladesh and elsewhere].

As with the above, Islam [in part] is not a religion of peace because its central Quran contain much evil laden verses that influenced and inspired SOME Muslims who are naturally born with evil tendencies to commit terrible and violence against non-Muslims and other Muslims. The evidence for this is too glaring to be ignored.

Note the similar accusations that are thrown at Buddhists in Myanmar and elsewhere who went on rampages and killings.
The fact is there are no LEADING evil laden elements in the main Buddhist sutras that will influence and inspire to kill in the name of Buddhism nor the Buddha.
Since 20% of all humans which include Buddhists, these evil prone Buddhists will commit all sorts of evils and violence wherever the opportunity and circumstances arise but their inspiration cannot be traced to the verses in the Buddhist sutra.

 
Old 06-11-2016, 12:53 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
I see no reason to doubt Khalif. I have known (in fact, only known) good and decent Muslims. There have been Christians who have done no better than these terrorists. Some 'Christians' and some 'Muslims' have been somewhat less than angelic. Who do you suppose the crusaders were? Who was it that burned people at the stake for obscure reasons? Those were the Godly and righteous 'Christians'.

That said, I am not excusing the behavior of these evil people. Neither do I fully agree with Khalif when he concludes that Islam is a religion of peace. Is Christianity a religion of peace?
The orders of the Fatimid caliph in Egypt
Not any European justify that the fighting of the Gospel is the book of Christians
Gospel published in all languages of the world is not as explicit or implicit in the text of the fighting or war
Koran in which more than 90 a word fight and kill the word and its synonyms
From the mistakes of Church of the East in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Egypt's support for the European Muslims against Christians
 
Old 06-11-2016, 03:44 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
I see no reason to doubt Khalif. I have known (in fact, only known) good and decent Muslims.
Thank you for being honest.

Muslims who really study and understand the Qur'an, learn how to live this life in peace and harmony with others (whether Muslims or non-Muslims). They are extremely concerned with their own behavior, and try to be God-conscious people, fearing the consequences of any evil actions.

There are of course some people who label themselves Muslims but have not studied the Qur'an and go against the direction/guidance given in the Qur'an. Most of them rely on the directions of their clerics (who themselves are often misguided) rather than understanding the Qur'an by studying it themselves. There are others who take the verses out of context to qualify their political aims. The Qur'an haters do exacty the same; take verses of the Qur'an out of context. Both groups are danger to humanity.

Quote:
There have been Christians who have done no better than these terrorists. Some 'Christians' and some 'Muslims' have been somewhat less than angelic. Who do you suppose the crusaders were? Who was it that burned people at the stake for obscure reasons? Those were the Godly and righteous 'Christians'.
Yes, some so-called Muslims and some so-called Christians are never righteous people with their bad behavior. But stereotyping every Muslim or every Christian is ignorance and danger to peace between people.

Quote:
That said, I am not excusing the behavior of these evil people. Neither do I fully agree with Khalif when he concludes that Islam is a religion of peace. Is Christianity a religion of peace?
You are absolutely correct.

I had made the comment in response to the claim that Islam is not religion of peace. I gave the opposite reason to counteract "Islam is not religion of peace". In my view, Islam is neither religion of peace nor religion of war. Islam is religion of guidance as to how one should live this life on earth in preparation for the life to come. This is based entirely on (a) believing the guidance and (b) doing good to other people. Initiating violence is never commanded. Any response to violence with violence is limited to self-protection and eye for an eye but never two eyes for one eye. It is limited to stopping the initial violence. In other words, if other side inclines to peace, we must incline to peace. This is the sum of the guidance in the Qur'an.

There is no blanket killing demanded of all non-muslims regardless of their behavior. The people who take the verses out of context to show there is such blanket killing demanded against the non-muslims in the Qur'an are the real problem towards creation of peace between people on earth today.
 
Old 06-11-2016, 09:06 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
Reputation: 204
[quote=Khalif;44374135]Thank you for being honest.

Muslims who really study and understand the Qur'an, learn how to live this life in peace and harmony with others (whether Muslims or non-Muslims). They are extremely concerned with their own behavior, and try to be God-conscious people, fearing the consequences of any evil actions.

There are of course some people who label themselves Muslims but have not studied the Qur'an and go against the direction/guidance given in the Qur'an. Most of them rely on the directions of their clerics (who themselves are often misguided) rather than understanding the Qur'an by studying it themselves. There are others who take the verses out of context to qualify their political aims. The Qur'an haters do exacty the same; take verses of the Qur'an out of context. Both groups are danger to humanity.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you think that Muslim clerics do not understand Islam
How to take deal and taught the Koran
Through verses
Do you want to cancel those verse
True Muslim is the one who follows the (q)Koran and the Sunnah

At the invitation of the Koran to fight jiha
But the Christian differs
True Christian believes in the teachings of Christ and the teachings of Christ is love, and not in his teachings and his actions call for fighting and killin
Christian who believes in the fighting, according to human standards, not divine
Gospel in which Christians believe is not the texts refer to the killing and fighting
And the teachings of the Christian clergy are written in the context of the Gospel
There is no difference in the interpretation of Christ's words of a man of the Christian religion and the Christian believer
So you confirms the differences and contradictions in the interpretation of the Koran
 
Old 06-11-2016, 09:07 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
I see no reason to doubt Khalif. I have known (in fact, only known) good and decent Muslims. There have been Christians who have done no better than these terrorists. Some 'Christians' and some 'Muslims' have been somewhat less than angelic. Who do you suppose the crusaders were? Who was it that burned people at the stake for obscure reasons? Those were the Godly and righteous 'Christians'.

That said, I am not excusing the behavior of these evil people. Neither do I fully agree with Khalif when he concludes that Islam is a religion of peace. Is Christianity a religion of peace?
Did you ask these Muslims why they think a man that had sex with a 4th grader is a prophet? Or why they follow an ideology where disbelievers are horribly tortured for eternity by their god?

I've spoken to over 3,000 Muslims and they can be charming until you ask the right questions.

Have you read the Quran and hadiths? Islam promotes terrorism and hate and sex with children and beating women and slaughtering and slavery.

Yes, there is that in Christianity, but learn the differences. Contrast Muhammed with Jesus. Think about this: I am a woman living openly as a atheist in a country having very few Muslims and mostly Christians. I can live however I want, as long as I do not violate the rights of others. No Christian has ever killed any friends of mine, or threatened me. I can dress and spend and drive and travel and believe what I want. What would my life be like in an Muslim country? Even living here, I have been threatened many times by Muslims and I have had friends who were killed in terrorist attacks in my country, not by Christians, but by Muslims.

FrontPage Magazine - What Islam Isn't

THINK!
 
Old 06-11-2016, 09:18 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
Reputation: 204
When studying the theory of ideology or ideological thou based on the literature and teachings and texts believers
Also the applications of that ideology
Marxist theory
Nazi theory
Arab nationalism
Islamic Nation
Then you will know the basis of these theories
Too religions
Consider education and the texts of the Koran and applications of those verses 1400 years ago
 
Old 06-11-2016, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Did you ask these Muslims why they think a man that had sex with a 4th grader is a prophet? Or why they follow an ideology where disbelievers are horribly tortured for eternity by their god?

I've spoken to over 3,000 Muslims and they can be charming until you ask the right questions.

Have you read the Quran and hadiths? Islam promotes terrorism and hate and sex with children and beating women and slaughtering and slavery.

Yes, there is that in Christianity, but learn the differences. Contrast Muhammed with Jesus. Think about this: I am a woman living openly as a atheist in a country having very few Muslims and mostly Christians. I can live however I want, as long as I do not violate the rights of others. No Christian has ever killed any friends of mine, or threatened me. I can dress and spend and drive and travel and believe what I want. What would my life be like in an Muslim country? Even living here, I have been threatened many times by Muslims and I have had friends who were killed in terrorist attacks in my country, not by Christians, but by Muslims.

FrontPage Magazine - What Islam Isn't

THINK!
Where in the Qur'an is there any justification for a Man to have Sexual relations with an immature girl?
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Old 06-11-2016, 11:34 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Where in the Qur'an is there any justification for a Man to have Sexual relations with an immature girl?
65:4 And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.

This is about divorcing.

Also, this:

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah." (Qur'an 33:21)

Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64; see also Numbers 65 and 88) and many more.....

That the Prophet said to her, “You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and some-one said (to me). ‘This is your wife.’ When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, ‘If this is from Allah, it will be done.” {Bukhari :: Volume 5 :: Book 58 :: Hadith 235}

What I do not know is if Muhammed practiced 'thighing' (placing his penis between her thighs and rubbing to ejaculation) on Aisha when she was younger than 9. I do not think so, but Islamic scholars seem to think he did:

After the permanent committee for the scientific research and fatwahs (religious decrees) reviewed the question forwarded by the grand scholar of the committee with reference number 1809 issued on 3/5/1453 and 7/5/1421 (Islamic calendar)

Question: ‘It has become widespread these days, and especially during weddings, the habit of mufa’khathat of the children. (mufa’khathat - literally translated, it means “placing between the thighs” which means placing the male member between the thighs of a child).

What is the opinion of scholars, knowing full well that the prophet, the peace of Allah be upon him, also practiced the “thighing” of Aisha - the mother of believers - may Allah be pleased with her ?

Answer: After studying the issue, the committee has answered as follows:

As for the prophet, his thighing his fiancée Aisha when she was six years of age and not able to consummate the relationship was due to her small age. That is why the Prophet used to place his male member between her thighs and massage it, as the prophet had control of his male member not like other men.

Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, The Supreme Leader of Iran, the Shia Grand Ayatollah, 1979-89 said in his official statements:

"A man can quench his sexual lusts with a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. Sodomizing the baby is halal (allowed by sharia). If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister. It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven."

Khomeini, "Tahrirolvasyleh" fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990

“It is not illegal for an adult male to 'thigh' or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his penis between her thighs, and to kiss her.”

Ayatu Allah Al Khumaini's "Tahrir Al wasila" p. 241, issue number 12

"Young boys or girls in full sexual effervescence are kept from getting married before they reach the legal age of majority. This is against the intention of divine laws. Why should the marriage of pubescent girls and boys be forbidden because they are still minors, when they are allowed to listen to the radio and to sexually arousing music?"

"The Little Green Book" "Sayings of the Ayatollah Khomeini", Bantam Books

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...1232108AAppsxu

I think there was a later fatwa that said although Muhammed did it no one today should do it.

Also, we need to clear up an issue here. Having a period does not change a girl into a woman ready for sex with old men overnight!! Or even sex with boys their own age. Puberty is a PROCESS!! It involves TIME...YEARS...it is both psychological and physical. A girl of 16 may or may not have reached puberty and certainly no man in his 50's should be porking her!

Puberty - stages, average, Definition, Description, Common problems
 
Old 06-11-2016, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
65:4 And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.

This is about divorcing.

Also, this:

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah." (Qur'an 33:21)

Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64; see also Numbers 65 and 88) and many more.....

That the Prophet said to her, “You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and some-one said (to me). ‘This is your wife.’ When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, ‘If this is from Allah, it will be done.” {Bukhari :: Volume 5 :: Book 58 :: Hadith 235}

What I do not know is if Muhammed practiced 'thighing' (placing his penis between her thighs and rubbing to ejaculation) on Aisha when she was younger than 9. I do not think so, but Islamic scholars seem to think he did:

After the permanent committee for the scientific research and fatwahs (religious decrees) reviewed the question forwarded by the grand scholar of the committee with reference number 1809 issued on 3/5/1453 and 7/5/1421 (Islamic calendar)



Question: ‘It has become widespread these days, and especially during weddings, the habit of mufa’khathat of the children. (mufa’khathat - literally translated, it means “placing between the thighs” which means placing the male member between the thighs of a child).

What is the opinion of scholars, knowing full well that the prophet, the peace of Allah be upon him, also practiced the “thighing” of Aisha - the mother of believers - may Allah be pleased with her ?

Answer: After studying the issue, the committee has answered as follows:

As for the prophet, his thighing his fiancée Aisha when she was six years of age and not able to consummate the relationship was due to her small age. That is why the Prophet used to place his male member between her thighs and massage it, as the prophet had control of his male member not like other men.

Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, The Supreme Leader of Iran, the Shia Grand Ayatollah, 1979-89 said in his official statements:

"A man can quench his sexual lusts with a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. Sodomizing the baby is halal (allowed by sharia). If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister. It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven."

Khomeini, "Tahrirolvasyleh" fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990

“It is not illegal for an adult male to 'thigh' or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his penis between her thighs, and to kiss her.”

Ayatu Allah Al Khumaini's "Tahrir Al wasila" p. 241, issue number 12

"Young boys or girls in full sexual effervescence are kept from getting married before they reach the legal age of majority. This is against the intention of divine laws. Why should the marriage of pubescent girls and boys be forbidden because they are still minors, when they are allowed to listen to the radio and to sexually arousing music?"

"The Little Green Book" "Sayings of the Ayatollah Khomeini", Bantam Books

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...1232108AAppsxu

I think there was a later fatwa that said although Muhammed did it no one today should do it.

Also, we need to clear up an issue here. Having a period does not change a girl into a woman ready for sex with old men overnight!! Or even sex with boys their own age. Puberty is a PROCESS!! It involves TIME...YEARS...it is both psychological and physical. A girl of 16 may or may not have reached puberty and certainly no man in his 50's should be porking her!

Puberty - stages, average, Definition, Description, Common problems

The Surah is related to divorce. There can be no divorce if the woman is pregnant. If a womam is not having any periods there is a high probability she is pregnant If she is not showing any other signs of pregnancy for 3 months, it can be assumed she is not and she is free to remarry.

If the woman is found to be pregnant during the waiting period, there is no divorce and the woman is permitted to remarry, other wise she can not remarry until after the child is born.

As for the remainder. I will not listen to any Ayatoullah. They do not speak for Islam, they speak only for Shi'ism.
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Old 06-11-2016, 12:51 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Surah is related to divorce. There can be no divorce if the woman is pregnant. If a womam is not having any periods there is a high probability she is pregnant If she is not showing any other signs of pregnancy for 3 months, it can be assumed she is not and she is free to remarry.

If the woman is found to be pregnant during the waiting period, there is no divorce and the woman is permitted to remarry, other wise she can not remarry until after the child is born.

As for the remainder. I will not listen to any Ayatoullah. They do not speak for Islam, they speak only for Shi'ism.
65:4 And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.

and [also for] those who have not menstruated.

They have not menstruated because they are little children.

We are NOT talking about pregnancy! That is covered but does not apply to this:

and [also for] those who have not menstruated.

This applies to divorcing a child who HAS NOT YET MENSTRUATED.

Let's review:

65:4

1. And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, (women in peri and post menopause)

and

2. [also for] those who have not menstruated. (children who have not had a period yet)

And

3. for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease. (pregnant women)

Last edited by juju33312; 06-11-2016 at 12:55 PM.. Reason: trying to be as clear as possible
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