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Old 06-15-2016, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
http://www.city-data.com/forum/44419717-post7.html
note in [] = mine
This thread refers to all sorts of evil acts [NOT specifically terrorism] committed by SOME [not all] Muslims who are evil prone.



The problem with most of the condemnations by most Muslims are not truthful nor effective and thus has no impact at all.

Here is one example;
Whoever kills an innocent person, it is as if he has killed all of humanity- Quran 5:32 My name is Amna & I am a Muslim. I stand with #Paris
— Amna (@amnax_26) November 14, 2015
Those condemnation from various governments are the run of the mill standard pattern of responses, e.g.

Indonesian President Joko Widodo, leader of the world’s most populous Muslim nation, said that ”Indonesia condemns the violence that took place in Paris.”
Paris Attacks: Muslims Speak Out Against Terrorism
What is most effective is for all Muslims to admit all Quran-inspired-violence has something in part to do with Islam. Note this admission from a Muslim, Maajid Nawaj, who was an ex-terrorist.
Be suspicious when you see something attributed to a "Former Terrorist". It has become quite lucrative for a person to be an "Ex-Terrorist".

Here are a few links related to Maajid Nawaj,


The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz: Fact and Fiction in the Life of the Counter-Terror Celebrity | Alternet

Maajid Nawaz who is he working for? - The 4 Freedoms Library

Lib Dem Candidate Maajid Nawaz Applied For Government Funding For Ex-EDL Leader Tommy Robinson


Maajid Nawaz


Founder vows to save group that fights extremism (From Echo)


I am not certain what to make of him. Some places he seems to be an apostate, other places he seems to be a sincere Moderate Muslim that knows groups like ISIS will consider him an apostate. What I do find is he appears to be a politician with political aspirations. I doubt he ever had any actual connection with any Terrorist groups.

While I do not want to "Throw the Baby out with the Bath Water" I find his credibility to be quite low.
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Old 06-15-2016, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
My ideology is based on non-initiation of force against others and individual rights. What do you have against non-initiation of force and individual rights?

Under my ideology, of course the need of someone else is not a mortgage on my life. I may well choose to help someone, but no one has a right to what someone else earns. Unless you can tell me why it is good to take, BY INITIATION OF FORCE money that someone earned to redistribute to those who did not earn it. I'm listening.

I am not looking to some supernatural god to torture people who do not believe what I do.




Sure, if they violate individual rights. But I'm not for cutting off hands of thieves. What you believe in is that allah should dish out horrible and endless torture to people who do not choose to submit to his evil. It flies in the face of individual rights. Look at the initiation of force in Islam. Pedophilis, mass rape, slavery, terrorism, slaughter, theft, torture, genocide, demands for submission and taxation. Every evil in the book. And, the demands for 'special rights'. Islam has nothing to do with individual rights. It wants to destroy freedom. The Islamic ideology and Muslim states based on fundamentalist sharia law show a totalitarian pattern. Evil.

BTW, Muhammed was a thief.
Working backwards unless you are clairvoyant and a mind reader I doubt you know very little of what I believe. I have not expressed most of my personal beliefs on this forum.

While some Islamic Nations have what they are calling Sharia Lawnot a single Nation has actual Sharia in compliance with a Madhab. By definition Shariah to be Shariah must be in full compliance with one of the 4 Madhabs and just one. No selecting what they like from the other Madhabs.

As for the punishments of Hell. I see the descriptions being an understandable way for the average person to comprehend the inner self inflicted pain a person will experience upon the realization they have excluded Allaah(swt) from their life for all of eternity. Eternal life without Allaah(swt) is the epitome of suffering. the pain we cause our self is many times greater than what an outside entity could/would mete out
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Old 06-15-2016, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Be suspicious when you see something attributed to a "Former Terrorist". It has become quite lucrative for a person to be an "Ex-Terrorist".

Here are a few links related to Maajid Nawaj,


The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz: Fact and Fiction in the Life of the Counter-Terror Celebrity | Alternet

Maajid Nawaz who is he working for? - The 4 Freedoms Library

Lib Dem Candidate Maajid Nawaz Applied For Government Funding For Ex-EDL Leader Tommy Robinson


Maajid Nawaz


Founder vows to save group that fights extremism (From Echo)


I am not certain what to make of him. Some places he seems to be an apostate, other places he seems to be a sincere Moderate Muslim that knows groups like ISIS will consider him an apostate. What I do find is he appears to be a politician with political aspirations. I doubt he ever had any actual connection with any Terrorist groups.

While I do not want to "Throw the Baby out with the Bath Water" I find his credibility to be quite low.
Here is one appropriate reply to your various links;
Truly this is one of the worst hatchet jobs of all time.
The deplorable quoting of anonymous sources provides the distinct impression that most of this is simply made up. Maajid Nawaz is not the Shah of Iran or Osama Bin Laden. It is ludicrous to try to claim that sources refused to be name from fear of retribution from a liberal activist who has never killed anybody. More to the point, the ridiculous length of this diatribe is an offence to the commonsense of the criticism made. If Nawaz really is all of these things then how does he justify the air time? He's not an elected representative. Showing photos of his strip club bucks night is shameless. There's no attempt at fairness here - this is a despicable, dishonest hit piece. This is really the sort of "blogging in your underpants" type of journalism, as decried by Sam Harris, that forces centrists like myself to have a deep suspicion about the truthfulness of claims made on this site, and the militant far left in general. Try not viewing the world as tinted by your ideological prism. Question the claims made here as well as in the mainstream media. Be careful who you listen to, and be careful who you become.
The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz: Fact and Fiction in the Life of the Counter-Terror Celebrity | Alternet
I once heard Nawaz admitted he was never a model Muslim for any one to follow.

What is critical of Nawaz's ideas is whether they are independently good regardless of his personal affairs [good or bad]. I do not rely on his credibility in this case except his ideas are 1 + 1 = 2, thus make very objective sense.
I suggest you criticize his ideas rather than deflect to all those unsubstantiated accusations.

So what is your criticism of his ideas?
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Old 06-15-2016, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The accusations of moderate and good Muslims will not stop from Islam and Muslim haters no matter how moderate or good Muslims they are.
I don't see much accusations of moderate and good Muslims.
If there are any, you should reflect on why there are no prevalent so called "haters" of Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Bahai, and not so much on Christianity as compared to Islam?
Why? Why? Why?
Don't think so many people are so free and busy body to comment negatively on Islam.

It is because Islam itself that is partly evil and influenced SOME evil prone to commit terrible evils [glaringly evident and threatening] that prompt very concern human beings to criticize Islam. What is inevitable is there will be SOME who will naturally and spontaneous 'GENERALIZE' [a fallacy] and blame all of Islam and all Muslims.
Now if Islam is not partly evil in the first place, there would not be that many people criticizing and some condemning Islam and all Muslims.

This is why it is critical that all Muslims recognize the reality and truth that Islam itself is partly [not wholly] to be blame for all the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims. Personally I would never blame Muslims even the ones that commit the evil because they as fellow human beings were born with evil tendencies and the blame should put squarely on what triggers them to commit Quran-inspired violence.

Quote:
The jihadists and terrorists are "truer" Muslims because they are truly following an evil ideology called Islam. Because moderate and good Muslims follow the same evil ideology, called Islam, they too are evil Muslims following evil ideology.
There may be cases, but I have not come across views where the moderate and good Muslims are labelled as "evil-Muslims" following evil ideology. Show me proofs of this?
There may be cases of hasty generalizations [a fallacy] which is done habitually and spontaneously.

Usually those who made hasty generalizations often do not mean what they say because it is impossible for any populations to have 100% generic human behaviors. When Trump generalize about Muslims or Mexicans, he is merely a bad logicians and critical thinker who resorted to hasty generalization which is a fallacy. The fact is this hasty generalization is a human trait that is innate in all human beings to facilitate survival. One has to reflect on it to avoid hasty generalization.
Note my deliberate use of "SOME", "not all" partly not wholly, etc. to rise above hasty generalization but sometimes the innate instinct do get the better of me.

Quote:
So, regardless of whether a moderate Muslim condemns the terrorists or not, he is condemned because he too is part of an evil ideology. The vicious wheel is truly in motion against all Muslims. Trump has already said that he wants to keep all Mozelems out of US. And they wonder in their ignorance why terrorists are on the increase despite the war on terror!
Note my point above on why hasty generalization is an innate trait as an instinct and is habitualized in most people.
Therefore if you understand human nature such as the innate hasty generalization instinct you will rise above this fallacy and not be offended by it at all.

Just observe humans in other aspects of life and you will note the instinctual hasty generalization [ALL are this or that!] is VERY common everywhere and no one [not you or me] is immune to it in every circumstances.

You are in fact applying hasty generalization to the Quran and Islam, i.e. ALL of Islam and the Quran is very good which is not true from various perspectives. Why because this is necessarily link to your survival, i.e. eternal survival which is a false concept.

Last edited by Continuum; 06-15-2016 at 09:01 PM..
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Old 06-15-2016, 10:46 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Working backwards unless you are clairvoyant and a mind reader I doubt you know very little of what I believe. I have not expressed most of my personal beliefs on this forum.

While some Islamic Nations have what they are calling Sharia Lawnot a single Nation has actual Sharia in compliance with a Madhab. By definition Shariah to be Shariah must be in full compliance with one of the 4 Madhabs and just one. No selecting what they like from the other Madhabs.

As for the punishments of Hell. I see the descriptions being an understandable way for the average person to comprehend the inner self inflicted pain a person will experience upon the realization they have excluded Allaah(swt) from their life for all of eternity. Eternal life without Allaah(swt) is the epitome of suffering. the pain we cause our self is many times greater than what an outside entity could/would mete out
You told me what you believe about allah's punishment several times and how it is deserved:
You said, when I called allah's endless and horrible torture of disbelievers hate: "I do not believe that is hatred. It is an act of giving people free will and allowing us to choose as we desire. The Qur'an is pointing out the consequences for our own actions......Sounds like an act of love to warn people of the probable consequences of what their choices will be."

You believe in a supernatural creature who you think is doing THIS to billions of souls"

Qur’an 22:19-22 “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

And you call this 'love'. I call it extreme sadism and hate that makes Charles Manson look like a sweetie pie.
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Old 06-16-2016, 02:48 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is one appropriate reply to your various links;
Truly this is one of the worst hatchet jobs of all time.
The deplorable quoting of anonymous sources provides the distinct impression that most of this is simply made up. Maajid Nawaz is not the Shah of Iran or Osama Bin Laden. It is ludicrous to try to claim that sources refused to be name from fear of retribution from a liberal activist who has never killed anybody. More to the point, the ridiculous length of this diatribe is an offence to the commonsense of the criticism made. If Nawaz really is all of these things then how does he justify the air time? He's not an elected representative. Showing photos of his strip club bucks night is shameless. There's no attempt at fairness here - this is a despicable, dishonest hit piece. This is really the sort of "blogging in your underpants" type of journalism, as decried by Sam Harris, that forces centrists like myself to have a deep suspicion about the truthfulness of claims made on this site, and the militant far left in general. Try not viewing the world as tinted by your ideological prism. Question the claims made here as well as in the mainstream media. Be careful who you listen to, and be careful who you become.
The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz: Fact and Fiction in the Life of the Counter-Terror Celebrity | Alternet
I once heard Nawaz admitted he was never a model Muslim for any one to follow.

What is critical of Nawaz's ideas is whether they are independently good regardless of his personal affairs [good or bad]. I do not rely on his credibility in this case except his ideas are 1 + 1 = 2, thus make very objective sense.
I suggest you criticize his ideas rather than deflect to all those unsubstantiated accusations.

So what is your criticism of his ideas?
I actually like his ideas. The only problem is they are not possible to implement as they would require some type of leadership, which we do not have. Muslims are very independent and tend to dislike any form of organized religion.
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Old 06-16-2016, 02:54 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
You told me what you believe about allah's punishment several times and how it is deserved:
You said, when I called allah's endless and horrible torture of disbelievers hate: "I do not believe that is hatred. It is an act of giving people free will and allowing us to choose as we desire. The Qur'an is pointing out the consequences for our own actions......Sounds like an act of love to warn people of the probable consequences of what their choices will be."

You believe in a supernatural creature who you think is doing THIS to billions of souls"

Qur’an 22:19-22 “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

And you call this 'love'. I call it extreme sadism and hate that makes Charles Manson look like a sweetie pie.
I tend to speak in analogies and metaphors. Sorry I do not seem to be capable of communicating with people who are concrete thinkers.

I probably should give up attempting to explain Islam to anyone as I always fail at it. Sayanora, I am not suited to explain Islam to non-Muslims. I leave you all in Peace.
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Old 06-16-2016, 05:03 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I tend to speak in analogies and metaphors. Sorry I do not seem to be capable of communicating with people who are concrete thinkers.
If they are not to take your explanation, it is not because you are unable to communicate but they are unable to receive.

Quote:
I probably should give up attempting to explain Islam to anyone as I always fail at it. Sayanora, I am not suited to explain Islam to non-Muslims. I leave you all in Peace.
Actually, not all non-Muslims are so thick that you can't explain Islam to them. You were a non-Muslim once and you managed to understand Islam.

I have debated Islam on the 'net' for the past 17 years. Some understood and others simply did not want to know. Some were merely there for political reasons and some for personal reasons as they had some grudge against Muslims or their ex Muslim husbands. People are often product of their own experience.

It has been really fascinating journey on the 'net' for me. I have also learnt a lot. It has given me insight into the minds of different non-Muslims and made me understand them better. If we, people, do not talk to each other we won't learn about each other. They are all individuals, different from each other, just as Muslims are individuals, different from each other.

It is good to know not only your friends but your enemies too.

As for understanding Islam and what is in the Qur'an, some unbelievers point out to the punishment in the life to come and call it evil in the Qur'an and Islam. How can it be evil to them if it is not going to happen to them here in this life that they believe is the only reality? Why should they worry or complain about it if they are sure that there is going to be no afterlife? If I were a non-Muslim in their shoes, it won't bother me a bit if the Qur'an told me that I am going to hell. I would be sure that there is going to be no such hell after I die.

This is why I have never been driven away by the Qur'an and the Islam haters. It has only further strengthened my conviction that I am on the right path. No amount of abuse and hate on the internet is going to move me away from being steadfast on the straight path. I am happy in this life, no frustration in my life making me go to non-Muslim forums to argue with them, have happy family, educated children, lovely house, lovely garden, peace in my heart and mind (the real happiness) and have done nothing to regret in the life to come.

Another thing that has been quite evident to me is why some people come here is not to learn but to teach Islam to Muslims. In such a situation, I do not try to explain to someone who already "knows". I won't explain and waste my time but just play the game with their rules. It often works to give them the taste of their own medicine. But of course one needs the patience and hard scull to do that, which is what I have learnt to have over all these years. Praise be to Allah the Lord of the worlds.

Salaam
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Old 06-16-2016, 08:40 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I tend to speak in analogies and metaphors. Sorry I do not seem to be capable of communicating with people who are concrete thinkers.

I probably should give up attempting to explain Islam to anyone as I always fail at it. Sayanora, I am not suited to explain Islam to non-Muslims. I leave you all in Peace.
Do you see what you are doing here? You claimed that: "unless you are clairvoyant and a mind reader I doubt you know very little of what I believe. I have not expressed most of my personal beliefs on this forum."

I show you were you indeed did express your belief to me - in a direct quote! Now you disparagingly call me a concrete thinker!

Do you see a problem here?

You accuse me of one thing and when I prove you wrong you just continue on and accuse me of another without stopping to think that you were wrong in the first place.

I deal in facts and truth. I take people at their word unless I have reason not to. I also will not accept faulty analogies and metaphors.

You have been very clear several times that you believe that your allah warns us about the terrible and endless torture we face if we go against his demands and therefore if we go against his demands we deserve that terrible and endless torture. You communicated this very clearly.
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:01 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post

As for understanding Islam and what is in the Qur'an, some unbelievers point out to the punishment in the life to come and call it evil in the Qur'an and Islam. How can it be evil to them if it is not going to happen to them here in this life that they believe is the only reality?
Because of cause and effect. That hate and talk of endless torture of disbelievers incites Muslims to hate and do violence against non-Muslims. It happens every day.

CAUSE:

Quran 8:50 And if you could see when the angels take away the souls of those who disbelieve (at death), they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): "Taste the punishment of the blazing Fire."

Quran 4:38 Cut off (from the wrist joint) the (right) hand of the thief, male or female, as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allah. And Allah is All-Powerful, All-Wise.

Quran 4:56 Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

Quran 79:25 Then Allah took him (away) with the torture of the Hereafter and the First (life).

Quran (24:2) The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you.

Quran (7:80-84) - And (remember) Lout (Lot), when he said to his people: "Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns)? " Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)." And the answer of his people was only that they said (one to another): Turn them out of your township. They are folk, forsooth, who keep pure. But we saved him and his family, except his wife: she was of those who legged behind. And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!



EFFECT:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPPx2AhNesU

WATCH: ISIS Hanging & Burning Alive Four Iraqi Men - Graphic Video - Uncensored


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GawmWVEgeI8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP8uB9abAhE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maxAXolTwxA
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