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Old 06-16-2016, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,355,359 times
Reputation: 7407

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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
You told me what you believe about allah's punishment several times and how it is deserved:
You said, when I called allah's endless and horrible torture of disbelievers hate: "I do not believe that is hatred. It is an act of giving people free will and allowing us to choose as we desire. The Qur'an is pointing out the consequences for our own actions......Sounds like an act of love to warn people of the probable consequences of what their choices will be."

You believe in a supernatural creature who you think is doing THIS to billions of souls"

Qur’an 22:19-22 “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

And you call this 'love'. I call it extreme sadism and hate that makes Charles Manson look like a sweetie pie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Do you see what you are doing here? You claimed that: "unless you are clairvoyant and a mind reader I doubt you know very little of what I believe. I have not expressed most of my personal beliefs on this forum."

I show you were you indeed did express your belief to me - in a direct quote! Now you disparagingly call me a concrete thinker!

Do you see a problem here?

You accuse me of one thing and when I prove you wrong you just continue on and accuse me of another without stopping to think that you were wrong in the first place.

I deal in facts and truth. I take people at their word unless I have reason not to. I also will not accept faulty analogies and metaphors.

You have been very clear several times that you believe that your allah warns us about the terrible and endless torture we face if we go against his demands and therefore if we go against his demands we deserve that terrible and endless torture. You communicated this very clearly.
What I said "and you quoted me correctly" was:

"I do not believe that is hatred. It is an act of giving people free will and allowing us to choose as we desire. The Qur'an is pointing out the consequences for our own actions......Sounds like an act of love to warn people of the probable consequences of what their choices will be."

I did not say:

You believe in a supernatural creature who you think is doing THIS to billions of souls"

I believe that we our self are doing any torture, through the pains of knowing we have willingly and freely threw away our invitation to enter heaven and refused to go.

I follow a school of thought that has the concept that much of the Qur'an is metaphorical and analogies, for the purpose of being to reach all people by using words that can be understood. The message being heaven is ours for free if we choose to enter. If we refuse to enter we are left inthe neither world at our own resources and in the accompaniment of countless others who have done the same.

I have never once said that I believe

Qur’an 22:19-22 “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

is to be taken as the literal English Translation. It is a metaphorical method of explaining a message in a manner in which one can understand, that being: "If we choose Hell, it is not a pleasant place to select. It will be what we make it to be without any resources or help from God(swt). But, the choice is ours up until the moment we die.

I do not believe it is possible to describe heaven and hell in terms of the physical world, so metaphors have to be used in order for people to fully grasp they do not want to choose the road to Hell.
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Old 06-16-2016, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,881 posts, read 2,401,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I tend to speak in analogies and metaphors. Sorry I do not seem to be capable of communicating with people who are concrete thinkers.

I probably should give up attempting to explain Islam to anyone as I always fail at it. Sayanora, I am not suited to explain Islam to non-Muslims. I leave you all in Peace.
Ohhh..NOT to worry Woodrow. There are many here who DO APPRECIATE and DO UNDERSTAND your analogies and metaphors I happen to be a Christian by religious definition, BUT throughout my life sought understanding of other religions..thus is quite capable to understand all the differences.

Even the difference amongst Christians vary right there in the USA. Just ONE example is the "Westboro Baptist" railed in the past decade or so, that did NOT equate to MY Christian belief system. Given this example..I would never accept anyone painting ALL Christians representing their (Westboro) core belief system..

Sorry..may come across convoluted.. but I'm sure those who aren't using their concrete individual mindset may understand it
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Old 06-16-2016, 04:31 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 759,198 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
What I said "and you quoted me correctly" was:

"I do not believe that is hatred. It is an act of giving people free will and allowing us to choose as we desire. The Qur'an is pointing out the consequences for our own actions......Sounds like an act of love to warn people of the probable consequences of what their choices will be."

I did not say:

You believe in a supernatural creature who you think is doing THIS to billions of souls"
I did not say you said it. I said it. It is the logical conclusion based on what you did say!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I believe that we our self are doing any torture, through the pains of knowing we have willingly and freely threw away our invitation to enter heaven and refused to go.
That's not what your allah says. And it is not what you have said in the past. You seem to have a lot of ideas about Islam that contradicts what Islam itself says and what you say yourself at other times. But what you say doesn't matter....it is what allah and muhammed say and do that matters. That is islam, not your conflicting opinions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I follow a school of thought that has the concept that much of the Qur'an is metaphorical and analogies, for the purpose of being to reach all people by using words that can be understood. The message being heaven is ours for free if we choose to enter. If we refuse to enter we are left inthe neither world at our own resources and in the accompaniment of countless others who have done the same.

I have never once said that I believe

Qur’an 22:19-22 “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

is to be taken as the literal English Translation. It is a metaphorical method of explaining a message in a manner in which one can understand, that being: "If we choose Hell, it is not a pleasant place to select. It will be what we make it to be without any resources or help from God(swt). But, the choice is ours up until the moment we die.

I do not believe it is possible to describe heaven and hell in terms of the physical world, so metaphors have to be used in order for people to fully grasp they do not want to choose the road to Hell.
Again, believe what you like. Islam is so evil and ugly that I can understand why people have to twist it. But the fact remains that in the quran, over and over, there are vivid descriptions of what allah will be doing to nonbelievers/disbelievers. This incites terrible hate and violence. We see it all over the globe. You can ignore reality, but reality IS, regardless of what you want it to be. Islam IS evil. Islam DOES incite terrorism. Islam WAS responsible for the slaughter of millions. Islam does NOT respect individual rights. What you think doesn't change reality. Here is your choice: stand with me against evil Islam, or stand on the side of evil. There isn't an afterlife, but at least be moral for the sake of the people living THIS life.
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Old 06-17-2016, 01:31 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,601,464 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I follow a school of thought that has the concept that much of the Qur'an is metaphorical and analogies, for the purpose of being to reach all people by using words that can be understood. The message being heaven is ours for free if we choose to enter. If we refuse to enter we are left inthe neither world at our own resources and in the accompaniment of countless others who have done the same.
If you believe the description of Hell is metaphorical, then do you at the same time believe the description of Paradise in the Quran is also metaphorical.

I understand the description of Paradise and Hell must be literal for ALL Muslims who obey Allah's words.
Did Allah state the description of Hell is metaphorical?
If the concepts of Hell are merely metaphorical, then, many Muslims will not take Allah's words seriously and Allah will lose credibility.

The point is Allah is all-powerfultherefore there are no restraints for Allah to have created the Hell to be as real as Allah is as depicted literally in the Quran. Being all-powerful, it is very easy and effortless for Allah to burn the skins of non-Muslims in Hell and create new ones after each layers has been burned.

Muslims who are slave to Allah do not have the right to change Allah's words in the Quran to interpret 'this' or 'that' is metaphorical or not-metaphorical.
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Old 06-17-2016, 06:30 AM
 
3,187 posts, read 1,055,210 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you believe the description of Hell is metaphorical, then do you at the same time believe the description of Paradise in the Quran is also metaphorical.
Yes! In both cases. No man has seen what is in store for the righteous in Paradise. It can't be compared to anything earthly that one sees here.

You read the Qur'an 50+ times? How did you miss 13:35, 47:15?

Quote:
I understand the description of Paradise and Hell must be literal for ALL Muslims who obey Allah's words.
Not for me. I have studied the Qur'an in depth. You have read it fast. There is big difference and it is coming to light here.

Quote:
Did Allah state the description of Hell is metaphorical?
13:35 gives the answer.

Quote:
If the concepts of Hell are merely metaphorical, then, many Muslims will not take Allah's words seriously and Allah will lose credibility.
Promise is real. Description are in parables.

Quote:
The point is Allah is all-powerfultherefore there are no restraints for Allah to have created the Hell to be as real as Allah is as depicted literally in the Quran.
Only His attributes are depicted literally; not His essence.

Quote:
Being all-powerful, it is very easy and effortless for Allah to burn the skins of non-Muslims in Hell and create new ones after each layers has been burned.
And being weak, humans can't understand why you will need new skins. Can't He leave you in there without the skins? Did you read during your 50+ readings that you will neither live in there nor die in there? Is that sounding literal to you?

Quote:
Muslims who are slave to Allah do not have the right to change Allah's words in the Quran to interpret 'this' or 'that' is metaphorical or not-metaphorical.
But what if Allah says so in 13:35?

And here is another parable that you might take literally:

[7.175] And recite to them the narrative of him to whom We give Our ayat, but he withdraws himself from them, so the Shaitan overtakes him, so he is of those who go astray.

[7.176] And if We had pleased, We would certainly have exalted him thereby; but he clung to the earth and followed his low desire, so his parable is as the parable of the dog; if you attack him he lolls out his tongue; and if you leave him alone he lolls out his tongue; this is the parable of the people who reject Our ayat; therefore relate the narrative that they may reflect.
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Old 06-17-2016, 07:08 AM
 
3,187 posts, read 1,055,210 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
That's not what your allah says. And it is not what you have said in the past. You seem to have a lot of ideas about Islam that contradicts what Islam itself says and what you say yourself at other times. But what you say doesn't matter....it is what allah and muhammed say and do that matters. That is islam, not your conflicting opinions.
Woodrow is correct, and you incorrect. Woodrow does not contradict, you do not understand Islam in your hate towards it.

Quote:
Again, believe what you like. Islam is so evil and ugly that I can understand why people have to twist it.
You calling Islam "evil" and "ugly" is hate speech. If I call you "ugly" and "evil" it would be hate speech. This is why I haven't called you "ugly" and "evil".

Quote:
But the fact remains that in the quran, over and over, there are vivid descriptions of what allah will be doing to nonbelievers/disbelievers.
Why do you even care what Allah will do to you if you are sure that there is no Allah?

Quote:
This incites terrible hate and violence. We see it all over the globe. You can ignore reality, but reality IS, regardless of what you want it to be. Islam IS evil.
That is nothing but hate against Islam when the majority Muslims are not hateful or violent.

Quote:
Islam DOES incite terrorism.
No. Hate against Muslims and attacks on Muslim countries is inciting terrorism. If it had been Islam, I too would be now a terrorist.

Quote:
Islam WAS responsible for the slaughter of millions.
Did Islam drop atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Did Islam slaughter millions during the WWI and WWII?

Quote:
Islam does NOT respect individual rights.
It does as long as Islam does not have to pay the price for individuals actions. Leave Islam alone, mind your own business, and Islam will not bother you.

Quote:
Here is your choice: stand with me against evil Islam, or stand on the side of evil.
You are spewing hate against Islam. Woodrow is not an evil man that he too would start spewing the same. If you have bad experience with a charming man, it does not mean every Muslim man is evil.

Quote:
There isn't an afterlife, but at least be moral for the sake of the people living THIS life.
Woodrow is being moral and you hateful towards Islam. If you are that sure there is no afterlife, there is no need for you to complain about Allah doing this and Allah doing that to the unbelievers/disbelievers in afterlife. The only conclusion one can draw from your ranting against Islam and Muslims in this forum is that you hate Islam and Muslims.
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Old 06-17-2016, 08:04 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,355,359 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you believe the description of Hell is metaphorical, then do you at the same time believe the description of Paradise in the Quran is also metaphorical.

I understand the description of Paradise and Hell must be literal for ALL Muslims who obey Allah's words.
Did Allah state the description of Hell is metaphorical?
If the concepts of Hell are merely metaphorical, then, many Muslims will not take Allah's words seriously and Allah will lose credibility.

The point is Allah is all-powerfultherefore there are no restraints for Allah to have created the Hell to be as real as Allah is as depicted literally in the Quran. Being all-powerful, it is very easy and effortless for Allah to burn the skins of non-Muslims in Hell and create new ones after each layers has been burned.

Muslims who are slave to Allah do not have the right to change Allah's words in the Quran to interpret 'this' or 'that' is metaphorical or not-metaphorical.
Yes I believe the description of heaven in the Qur'an is metaphorical and not literal.

As to what we are to believe in the Qur'an is the words are the "Exact words of Allaah(swt)" as to the meanings and understanding of such there is no 'Authoritative, official absolute" way. We each must verify the meanings on our own and not believe what we our self have not verified.
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Old 06-17-2016, 11:03 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,601,464 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Yes! In both cases. No man has seen what is in store for the righteous in Paradise. It can't be compared to anything earthly that one sees here.

You read the Qur'an 50+ times? How did you miss 13:35, 47:15?

Not for me. I have studied the Qur'an in depth. You have read it fast. There is big difference and it is coming to light here.

13:35 gives the answer.
The term mathalu مَثَلُ م ث ل do not imply "metaphorical" in the whole context of the Quran. Many of the 45++ English translations I refer to translate it as 'example, likeness'.
In the Quran, Allah has given an extensive description of what Paradise and Hell entail literally.

From my analysis, there are 312 verses related to Hell and 414 verses relating rewards in Paradise. The two out of 312 verses, i.e. verses 13:35 and 47:15 merely mentioned some minimal examples and likeness/similarity to what is expected in Paradise and Hell.

Quote:
Promise is real. Description are in parables.
The descriptions of Hell and Paradise in accordance to the Quran are literal and not in parables.

Quote:
Only His attributes are depicted literally; not His essence.
Your reply is off tangent.
Allah attributes and essence has to be literally real, otherwise YOU are claiming Allah is false and contradicting yourself.

Quote:
And being weak, humans can't understand why you will need new skins. Can't He leave you in there without the skins? Did you read during your 50+ readings that you will neither live in there nor die in there? Is that sounding literal to you?
What can't Allah leave anyone there without skins?
The point is Allah is supposed to be all powerful, therefore everything is possible from Allah.

Note this fish which body was fried and was still alive.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_51j1NRfu8

If humans can do this to fishes, why can't Allah -all powerful- do that to humans in his Hell?
Surely Allah being all powerful is capable of giving new skins to humans and do whatever Allah wants to do.
There is no more room for you to eel and weave around on this.


Quote:
But what if Allah says so in 13:35?
Note my argument above, re examples, likeness.
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Old 06-18-2016, 04:55 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 759,198 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Woodrow is correct, and you incorrect. Woodrow does not contradict, you do not understand Islam in your hate towards it.

You calling Islam "evil" and "ugly" is hate speech. If I call you "ugly" and "evil" it would be hate speech. This is why I haven't called you "ugly" and "evil".

Why do you even care what Allah will do to you if you are sure that there is no Allah?

That is nothing but hate against Islam when the majority Muslims are not hateful or violent.

No. Hate against Muslims and attacks on Muslim countries is inciting terrorism. If it had been Islam, I too would be now a terrorist.

Did Islam drop atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Did Islam slaughter millions during the WWI and WWII?

It does as long as Islam does not have to pay the price for individuals actions. Leave Islam alone, mind your own business, and Islam will not bother you.

You are spewing hate against Islam. Woodrow is not an evil man that he too would start spewing the same. If you have bad experience with a charming man, it does not mean every Muslim man is evil.

Woodrow is being moral and you hateful towards Islam. If you are that sure there is no afterlife, there is no need for you to complain about Allah doing this and Allah doing that to the unbelievers/disbelievers in afterlife. The only conclusion one can draw from your ranting against Islam and Muslims in this forum is that you hate Islam and Muslims.
Metaphor: an expression that describes a person or object by referring to something that is considered to possess similar characteristics

How is this a metaphor:

“for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

"The mind is an ocean" and "the city is a jungle" are both metaphors.

This is ugly hate and threats of terrible and unending torture. Nothing metaphoric about it.
“for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

Were the bombs dropped because NOTHING WAS HAPPENING? How many lives were SAVED when those bombs were dropped? Study THAT! There is a difference between initiating force and retaliation. Islam is constantly initiating force. India, Slavery. Terrorism. Mass rape. Invasion after invasion.
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Old 06-18-2016, 07:51 PM
 
870 posts, read 669,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
My ideology is based on non-initiation of force against others and individual rights. What do you have against non-initiation of force and individual rights?

Under my ideology, of course the need of someone else is not a mortgage on my life. I may well choose to help someone, but no one has a right to what someone else earns. Unless you can tell me why it is good to take, BY INITIATION OF FORCE money that someone earned to redistribute to those who did not earn it. I'm listening.

I am not looking to some supernatural god to torture people who do not believe what I do.




Sure, if they violate individual rights. But I'm not for cutting off hands of thieves. What you believe in is that allah should dish out horrible and endless torture to people who do not choose to submit to his evil. It flies in the face of individual rights. Look at the initiation of force in Islam. Pedophilis, mass rape, slavery, terrorism, slaughter, theft, torture, genocide, demands for submission and taxation. Every evil in the book. And, the demands for 'special rights'. Islam has nothing to do with individual rights. It wants to destroy freedom. The Islamic ideology and Muslim states based on fundamentalist sharia law show a totalitarian pattern. Evil.

BTW, Muhammed was a thief.
Your ideology is inconsistent with orthodox muslim beliefs. You are a cafeteria muslim.
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