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Old 06-14-2016, 11:59 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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http://www.city-data.com/forum/44419717-post7.html
note in [] = mine
This thread refers to all sorts of evil acts [NOT specifically terrorism] committed by SOME [not all] Muslims who are evil prone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
Which Islamic community? There is no single unit that can be considered a representative community for all Muslims. But every Muslim I personally know is very outspoken against [evils and violence]. But what happens is we get told by the hate sites that we are not Muslims. We get told by those that hate Islam that the evil-doers are the "Real Muslims" and those of us who speak against them are "fake" Muslims.

I have posted a very large number of times about Muslims speaking out against [evil doers] and basically get told we are not Muslims and that doesn't count.

But here we go again a few links to show that we do condemn [evil doers] and this is just the English speaking ones that I am aware of. There are many more in Malaysian and Indonesian

<snipped a long lists of links>
The problem with most of the condemnations by most Muslims are not truthful nor effective and thus has no impact at all.

Here is one example;
Whoever kills an innocent person, it is as if he has killed all of humanity- Quran 5:32 My name is Amna & I am a Muslim. I stand with #Paris
— Amna (@amnax_26) November 14, 2015
Those condemnation from various governments are the run of the mill standard pattern of responses, e.g.

Indonesian President Joko Widodo, leader of the world’s most populous Muslim nation, said that ”Indonesia condemns the violence that took place in Paris.”
Paris Attacks: Muslims Speak Out Against Terrorism
What is most effective is for all Muslims to admit all Quran-inspired-violence has something in part to do with Islam. Note this admission from a Muslim, Maajid Nawaj, who was an ex-terrorist.

Quote:
Admit It: These Terrorists Are Muslims
Maajid Nawaj
Admit It: These Terrorists Are Muslims - The Daily Beast

Enough with the special pleading. Enough with the denial. Enough with the obfuscation.
The killer of ??? was a homophobic Muslim extremist, inspired by an ideological take on my own religion, Islam. In just the first seven days of this holy month of Ramadan, various jihadists have carried out attacks in Tel Aviv, Baghdad, Damascus, Idlib, Beirut, Orlando, and now Paris.

..........
Just as this clearly has something to do with outdated gun laws, and just as those laws need reform, this [violence] also has something to do with Islam, which also needs reform today. No other stance makes any sense.

..........
As I argued in a TV debate with Fareed Zakaria, the danger of not doing so is twofold.
Within the Muslim context, it is a betrayal of those liberal reforming Muslims who risk everything daily. These are feminist Muslims, gay Muslims, ex-Muslims, dissenting liberal and secular Muslim voices, persecuted minority sects among Muslims, the Ismailis, the Ahmedis and the Shia—all these different minorities within the minority of the Muslim community—they are immediately betrayed by our silence.

By shutting down the conversation about Islamist extremism we deprive them of the lexicon to deploy against those who are attempting to silence their progressive efforts within their own communities. We surrender their identity of Islam to the extremists.

The second danger is in the non-Muslim context. What happens if we don’t name the Islamist ideology and distinguish it from Islam? We leave a void for the vast majority of Americans—who are unaware of the nuances in this debate—to be filled by Donald Trump and the Populist Right. They will go on to blame all versions of Islam and every Muslim, and their frustration at not being able to talk about the problem will give in to rage, as it has done. By refusing to discuss it, we only increase the hysteria. Like “he who must not be named”—the Voldemort Effect, I call it—we increase the fear.

So this is my appeal to President Obama, Hillary Clinton, and to all liberals and Muslims, for humanity’s sake let’s stop playing politics with evil. Just as this so obviously has something to do with lax gun laws, it so clearly has something to do with Islam. Hillary Clinton nearly conceded as much after these recent attacks. But liberals must own this debate, not merely appear to be defensively reacting to Trump’s agenda.

This September will mark 15 years since the 9/11 attacks, and we still haven’t devised a strategy to address Islamist extremism, let alone identified voices who can do so globally. Not al Qaeda, not ISIS, nor any other theocratic jihadist group that may emerge in the future, but a strategy that recognizes we are in the middle of a Cold War against theocracy. If we refuse to isolate, name and shame Islamist extremism, from fear of increasing anti-Muslim bigotry, we only increase anti-Muslim bigotry. If the rise of Trump has not convinced us of this yet, then nothing will.
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Old 06-15-2016, 12:09 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quote:
Woodrow LI
.....
But what happens is we get told by the hate sites that we are not Muslims. We get told by those that hate Islam that the evil-doers are the "Real Muslims" and those of us who speak against them are "fake" Muslims.
I have never read of anyone accusing moderate and good Muslims as "fake" Muslims.
What I have read and agree those jihadists are likely to be "truer" Muslims than the moderate Muslims because they comply with a greater % of the terms and conditions stipulated by Allah in the Quran. The emphasis here is a matter of degrees. The moderate and peaceful Muslims are never "fake" Muslims.

Show me proofs where moderate and peaceful Muslims are accused of being fake Muslims. I believe if there are any, they are rare and that is a wrong accusation anyway.

There could be fake Muslims, i.e. those caught pretending to be Muslims when by definition they are not.
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Old 06-15-2016, 08:53 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,037 times
Reputation: 435
"Whoever kills an innocent person, it is as if he has killed all of humanity- Quran 5:32 My name is Amna & I am a Muslim. I stand with #Paris
— Amna (@amnax_26) November 14, 2015"

Actual verse:

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

Muslims misquote this verse to suit their purpose of pretending Islam is what is is not.

It works. Far from hearing 'moderate' muslims accused of being fake, I hear non-Muslims defending 'moderate' muslims as peaceful, good people. I see the media and the politicians and the education system standing up for all the 'moderate' muslims and giving them special rights.

"The killer of ??? was a homophobic Muslim extremist,:

No, this was a mainstream muslim following Islam.

Many Muslim countries punish homosexuality, even by death.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ed-by-death-2/

Sahabas ( the companions, disciples, scribes and family of Muhammed) agreed on severe punishments for sodomy. Some say that homosexuals should be burned and stoned, others say they should be thrown from height and then stoned, some said they should just be stoned. They agreed, punishment should be death.



Sharia teaches that homosexuality is a vile form of fornication, punishable by death.



The Quran says:

Quran (7:80-84) - And (remember) Lout (Lot), when he said to his people: "Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns)? " Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)." And the answer of his people was only that they said (one to another): Turn them out of your township. They are folk, forsooth, who keep pure. But we saved him and his family, except his wife: she was of those who legged behind. And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!

Quran (26:165-166) - "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing"



The hadith (the writings about Muhammed by Islamic scholors and historians, foundation of Islamic laws and culture):

Abu Dawud (4462) - The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done."

Abu Dawud (4448) - "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death." (Note the implicit approval of sodomizing one's wife).

Bukhari (72:774) - "The Prophet cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, 'Turn them out of your houses .' The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman."

al-Tirmidhi, Sunan 1:152 - [Muhammad said] "Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver."


An imam speaking in Orlando in April said that killing gays according to Islamic law should be done "out of compassion"
https://pjmedia.com/homeland-securit...igated-by-fbi/

This is MAINSTREAM Islam!! Not some extremist version!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APQVkJcZMKI

Muslims have been at this for years and they know how to manipulate the media and the system. They know that speaking out against terrorism is a smart tactic. It works well on the vast majority of people who do not know what Islam is about. Over and over we find 'moderate' Muslims and their organizations who spoke against terrorism....financing terrorism!
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have never read of anyone accusing moderate and good Muslims as "fake" Muslims.
What I have read and agree those jihadists are likely to be "truer" Muslims than the moderate Muslims because they comply with a greater % of the terms and conditions stipulated by Allah in the Quran. The emphasis here is a matter of degrees. The moderate and peaceful Muslims are never "fake" Muslims.

Show me proofs where moderate and peaceful Muslims are accused of being fake Muslims. I believe if there are any, they are rare and that is a wrong accusation anyway.

There could be fake Muslims, i.e. those caught pretending to be Muslims when by definition they are not.
It even happens on this forum, fairly often. although not in those exact words but with the same implication.

For Example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Whoever kills an innocent person, it is as if he has killed all of humanity- Quran 5:32 My name is Amna & I am a Muslim. I stand with #Paris
— Amna (@amnax_26) November 14, 2015"

Actual verse:

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

Muslims misquote this verse to suit their purpose of pretending Islam is what is is not.

It works. Far from hearing 'moderate' muslims accused of being fake, I hear non-Muslims defending 'moderate' muslims as peaceful, good people. I see the media and the politicians and the education system standing up for all the 'moderate' muslims and giving them special rights.

"The killer of ??? was a homophobic Muslim extremist,:

No, this was a mainstream muslim following Islam.

Many Muslim countries punish homosexuality, even by death.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ed-by-death-2/

Sahabas ( the companions, disciples, scribes and family of Muhammed) agreed on severe punishments for sodomy. Some say that homosexuals should be burned and stoned, others say they should be thrown from height and then stoned, some said they should just be stoned. They agreed, punishment should be death.



Sharia teaches that homosexuality is a vile form of fornication, punishable by death.



The Quran says:

Quran (7:80-84) - And (remember) Lout (Lot), when he said to his people: "Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns)? " Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)." And the answer of his people was only that they said (one to another): Turn them out of your township. They are folk, forsooth, who keep pure. But we saved him and his family, except his wife: she was of those who legged behind. And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!

Quran (26:165-166) - "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing"



The hadith (the writings about Muhammed by Islamic scholors and historians, foundation of Islamic laws and culture):

Abu Dawud (4462) - The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done."

Abu Dawud (4448) - "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death." (Note the implicit approval of sodomizing one's wife).

Bukhari (72:774) - "The Prophet cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, 'Turn them out of your houses .' The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman."

al-Tirmidhi, Sunan 1:152 - [Muhammad said] "Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver."


An imam speaking in Orlando in April said that killing gays according to Islamic law should be done "out of compassion"
https://pjmedia.com/homeland-securit...igated-by-fbi/

This is MAINSTREAM Islam!! Not some extremist version!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APQVkJcZMKI

Muslims have been at this for years and they know how to manipulate the media and the system. They know that speaking out against terrorism is a smart tactic. It works well on the vast majority of people who do not know what Islam is about. Over and over we find 'moderate' Muslims and their organizations who spoke against terrorism....financing terrorism!
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Old 06-15-2016, 12:13 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have never read of anyone accusing moderate and good Muslims as "fake" Muslims.
What I have read and agree those jihadists are likely to be "truer" Muslims than the moderate Muslims because they comply with a greater % of the terms and conditions stipulated by Allah in the Quran. The emphasis here is a matter of degrees. The moderate and peaceful Muslims are never "fake" Muslims.
The accusations of moderate and good Muslims will not stop from Islam and Muslim haters no matter how moderate or good Muslims they are.

The jihadists and terrorists are "truer" Muslims because they are truly following an evil ideology called Islam. Because moderate and good Muslims follow the same evil ideology, called Islam, they too are evil Muslims following evil ideology.

So, regardless of whether a moderate Muslim condemns the terrorists or not, he is condemned because he too is part of an evil ideology. The vicious wheel is truly in motion against all Muslims. Trump has already said that he wants to keep all Mozelems out of US. And they wonder in their ignorance why terrorists are on the increase despite the war on terror!
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Old 06-15-2016, 02:25 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,037 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It even happens on this forum, fairly often. although not in those exact words but with the same implication.

For Example:
Good people do not choose to follow evil ideologies.

I would never, ever follow an evil ideology where the leader and originator brags of how he will endlessly torture those who will not submit to him and where the followers think the endless horrible torture is deserved because the leader warned of the torture he would inflict.
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Old 06-15-2016, 04:50 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Good people do not choose to follow evil ideologies.

I would never, ever follow an evil ideology where the leader and originator brags of how he will endlessly torture those who will not submit to him and where the followers think the endless horrible torture is deserved because the leader warned of the torture he would inflict.
But you have no issue of following an ideology in which those who work hard at a job will reap monetary rewards and enjoy the pleasures of life, while those who deliberatly refuse to work for a living will either turn to crime and probably spend their life in prisons or die of starvation , broken down and destitute.

It is a simple fact of life. You either work or you go hungry or you live a life of crime with it's own set of risks.

We all get what we earn or what members of our family and community work for. Or else you receive severe earthly punishment if caught.

do you approve of punishment for criminals on earth? do you think punishment should be appropriate for the crime?
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Old 06-15-2016, 05:36 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,037 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
But you have no issue of following an ideology in which those who work hard at a job will reap monetary rewards and enjoy the pleasures of life, while those who deliberatly refuse to work for a living will either turn to crime and probably spend their life in prisons or die of starvation , broken down and destitute.
My ideology is based on non-initiation of force against others and individual rights. What do you have against non-initiation of force and individual rights?

Under my ideology, of course the need of someone else is not a mortgage on my life. I may well choose to help someone, but no one has a right to what someone else earns. Unless you can tell me why it is good to take, BY INITIATION OF FORCE money that someone earned to redistribute to those who did not earn it. I'm listening.

I am not looking to some supernatural god to torture people who do not believe what I do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
do you approve of punishment for criminals on earth? do you think punishment should be appropriate for the crime?
Sure, if they violate individual rights. But I'm not for cutting off hands of thieves. What you believe in is that allah should dish out horrible and endless torture to people who do not choose to submit to his evil. It flies in the face of individual rights. Look at the initiation of force in Islam. Pedophilis, mass rape, slavery, terrorism, slaughter, theft, torture, genocide, demands for submission and taxation. Every evil in the book. And, the demands for 'special rights'. Islam has nothing to do with individual rights. It wants to destroy freedom. The Islamic ideology and Muslim states based on fundamentalist sharia law show a totalitarian pattern. Evil.

BTW, Muhammed was a thief.
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Old 06-15-2016, 05:37 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 663,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Good people do not choose to follow evil ideologies.

I would never, ever follow an evil ideology where the leader and originator brags of how he will endlessly torture those who will not submit to him and where the followers think the endless horrible torture is deserved because the leader warned of the torture he would inflict.
This is true ideology of evil produces evil and terrorism
Crime is of personal reasons, while terrorism stems from the doctrine
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Old 06-15-2016, 05:51 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 663,200 times
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Obedience to the Prophet

That is why a Muslim is that Muhammad is the role model and optimization model in his life

Muhammad was dividing the spoils of wars

Mohammed kill Jews

Muhammad owned 13 woman

Mohammed Wife robbed his adopted son zead

Is this man becomes a role model for people
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