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Old 06-17-2016, 01:47 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The challenge was to those who did not believe that the Qur'an is the Word/Saying/Hadith of Allah.

Write a book, claim it to be Hadith/Word/Saying of Allah, and if it is accepted as such just as the Qur'an was accepted as Hadith of Allah then the challenge in the Qur'an has failed. The EVIDENCE of it being accepted as the Hadith of Allah, similar to the Qur'an being accepted as Hadith of Allah will be the judge.
The implication of the Quran's challenge is no other books from non-Muslims are better than the Quran which prevail over all other religions.

Don't deflect and run from the OP.

I ask who [individual, panel, group, whoever?] is to be judge and you cannot provide it at all.
A event cannot make judgement.
If you based on an event [popularity] that event still have to be judged by human[s] to ensure it is credible and justifiable.

What if some one write a book and promote it a way that billions of people will buy it.
Note the current Bible which the Quran claimed is corrupted is more popular than the Quran. Note these popular books, i.e. Mao's Little Red Book, Hitler's Main Kempf, Harry Potter's book, etc.
I would not accept the Bible or the above books are 'better' than the Quran merely based on large number of books printed, sold, given free and in the hands of believers.
Objectively and rationally, the judgement must be based on the contents in accordance to the relevant criteria BUT first there must be judge[s] to make judgements.

I ask a very rational and honest question, who [individual, panel, group, whoever?] is to judge the challenge by the Quran?

If you cannot answer the above rationally with critical thinking, then the Quran is an impossible and ridiculous challenge.

If Allah is all-powerful, created and maintaining the universe and human beings, why don't Allah appear before the evidence to be presented and judge [based on rational criteria] whether the challenge is met or not, and to give reasons why the challenge failed if that is the case.

Last edited by Continuum; 06-17-2016 at 01:58 AM..
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Old 06-17-2016, 05:09 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The implication of the Quran's challenge is no other books from non-Muslims are better than the Quran which prevail over all other religions.
The implication of the Qur'an's challenge is that the Qur'an can only be from Allah, and not from Muhammad, not from any man, and not from a group of people. If a man or men write something similar and claim it is from Allah, the claim will not succeed as the Muhammad's claim that it is from Allah has succeeded.

Quote:
Don't deflect and run from the OP.
The OP is in ignorance. There was no judge of the Qur'an that it is from Allah. It's success has been the judge that it could only have been from Allah. Why can't you understand this simple point?

Quote:
I ask who [individual, panel, group, whoever?] is to be judge and you cannot provide it at all.
You are talking nonsense! No individual, panel, group has been the judge of the Qur'an, the Hadith of Allah.

Quote:
A event cannot make judgement.
Only the event has made judgement of the Qur'an, and not any man or men. You need to understand that for your OP question.

Quote:
If you based on an event [popularity] that event still have to be judged by human[s] to ensure it is credible and justifiable.
Who judged the Qur'an being Word of Allah? Can you name any man?

You write ten Surahs and claim them to be words of Allah, you be the judge that they are from Allah. If they do not succeed as the Qur'an, the Word of Allah, succeeded then you will have the answer to your question of OP.

Quote:
What if some one write a book and promote it a way that billions of people will buy it.
The Qur'an wasn't promoted in any way other than that it is Word of Allah. You write a book similar to the Qur'an and promote it as Word of Allah. Let it be judged as the Qur'an was judged. It is as simple as that. What is so difficult for you to understand the challenge?

Quote:
Note the current Bible which the Quran claimed is corrupted is more popular than the Quran.
The Bible is confirmed by the Qur'an that it is from Allah. The Qur'an does not claim that it is corrupted.

Quote:
Note these popular books, i.e. Mao's Little Red Book, Hitler's Main Kempf, Harry Potter's book, etc.
None of these books were promoted as Word of Allah. You are missing the point of the Qur'an's challenge.

Quote:
I ask a very rational and honest question, who [individual, panel, group, whoever?] is to judge the challenge by the Quran?
As I have informed you a few times already, if you begin with false premise you would end up with false conclusion. You need to understand the challenge first!

Quote:
If you cannot answer the above rationally with critical thinking, then the Quran is an impossible and ridiculous challenge.
If you can't understand the challenge, it will sound ridiculous to you. I understand the challenge and it is perfectly valid challenge.

Quote:
If Allah is all-powerful, created and maintaining the universe and human beings, why don't Allah appear before the evidence to be presented and judge [based on rational criteria] whether the challenge is met or not, and to give reasons why the challenge failed if that is the case.
And right at the end of your post, you effectively reject everything you have written in your post. You asked about human judge but now you are talking about Allah as a judge. You know very well that Allah will be the Judge as was in the case of the Qur'an. You have answered your own silly question. Well done!
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Old 06-17-2016, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The implication of the Qur'an's challenge is that the Qur'an can only be from Allah, and not from Muhammad, not from any man, and not from a group of people. If a man or men write something similar and claim it is from Allah, the claim will not succeed as the Muhammad's claim that it is from Allah has succeeded.
What the implication or the claim, it must be verifiable and judge by an entity, god or otherwise.
The fact that the Quran is printed in so many copies only prove it is successful in printing out so many copies. Popularity do not mean that everyone who has a copy understood it thoroughly.

The very fact that the Quran inspired so many Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence is evidence that the Quran is the most successful book in promoting real violence by SOME [not all] Muslims who are born with evil tendencies.

If you want to claim it can only be from God, the simple proof is to prove God exists as real. Why go about the complicated process of proving God exist based on popularity and drag it all sorts of fallacies and falsehoods to support it?


Quote:
The OP is in ignorance. There was no judge of the Qur'an that it is from Allah. It's success has been the judge that it could only have been from Allah. Why can't you understand this simple point?
Simple point? That reflect on your VERY incompetence in thinking properly and critically.
The claim of success based on popularity is one of the worst kind of fallacy [error] in rational and logical thinking;

Quote:
In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including
appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, and bandwagon fallacy (also known as a vox populi),[2] ..

.. and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans").

It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect. The Chinese proverb "three men make a tiger" concerns the same idea.
I hope you have enough humanity to understand the above fallacy of 'argumentum ad poplulum' and the consequences of its use. To rely on 'argumentum ad poplulum' is to insist on falsehoods.


Quote:
You are talking nonsense! No individual, panel, group has been the judge of the Qur'an, the Hadith of Allah.
Actually the question itself is to reveal your nonsense and that of Allah who has issued an impossible and ridiculous challenge.

Your answer to my question reveals that you understood, no human[s] can judge the challenge, therefore only can judge the challenge.
But Allah cannot appear to make any judgement because Allah do not exists in the first place and you cannot prove Allah exists as real.
Therefore the challenge issued by Allah is an impossible challenge.
We conclude the Quran was authored by human[s], because if the Quran was supposed to be issued by an all powerful God, that God would not issued such a ridiculous and embarrassment challenge. [A]


Quote:
Only the event has made judgement of the Qur'an, and not any man or men. You need to understand that for your OP question.
You are getting worse. What are you talking about here?
Note in a gymnastic or any competition where judgement is necessary, the event [the performance of the sport person] do not judge. The judging of the performance[event, set of activity] is done by a panel of judges who are humans.
The judgement on an authored book in comparison to other books, etc. is a subjective affairs which need humans to judge.

Quote:
Who judged the Qur'an being Word of Allah? Can you name any man?
Note my response in [A] above.

Quote:
You write ten Surahs and claim them to be words of Allah, you be the judge that they are from Allah. If they do not succeed as the Qur'an, the Word of Allah, succeeded then you will have the answer to your question of OP.
I have asked what do you meant by success.
You replied it is base on polarity.
But I have countered the reliance on popularity is a fallacy, i.e. 'argumentum ad poplulum' - see above.

Quote:
The Qur'an wasn't promoted in any way other than that it is Word of Allah. You write a book similar to the Qur'an and promote it as Word of Allah. Let it be judged as the Qur'an was judged. It is as simple as that. What is so difficult for you to understand the challenge?
This is a silly argument.
I don't believe in God, why should I write a book and claim it is from God.

The basis of the challenge from Allah is this;
1. Allah exists and Allah is all powerful and all-knowing.
2. Only an all powerful and all-knowing Allah can author such a book.
3. Thus if anyone can author a better book [in the like of the Quran], then Allah is not that all powerful and all knowing.

Note if no one can achieve 3, the above do not prove conclusively Allah exists.
It merely prove that the Quran is the best book on Earth as claimed to be written by a God.
One still have to prove the claim, God exists.

Quote:
None of these books were promoted as Word of Allah. You are missing the point of the Qur'an's challenge.
Correct! this is because no wise and rational person would every made such an impossible and ridiculous claim. Such claims are only challenge in kindergarten and young children who claim their father than do better than the fathers of others, in this case writing a book. Fundamentally if any adult were to issue such a challenge, it is due to very low self-esteem.

Quote:
As I have informed you a few times already, if you begin with false premise you would end up with false conclusion. You need to understand the challenge first!
Don't waste your time teaching basic logic 101. You need to understand basic logic 101 very thoroughly.

Note your whole argument is grounded on the ultimate first premise which is false, i.e. God exists which is impossible to be true, unless you can prove it. You have admitted you cannot prove it and you are rely on faith.
Thus your fundamental ground of your first premise is false and all your conclusions therefrom are false.
Agree?
There is no room for you to deny this!

Quote:
If you can't understand the challenge, it will sound ridiculous to you. I understand the challenge and it is perfectly valid challenge.
Valid?
Note when your fundamental first premise is false and you are using fallacies, i.e. the classic cheap trick of 'argumentum ad poplulum'.

Quote:
And right at the end of your post, you effectively reject everything you have written in your post. You asked about human judge but now you are talking about Allah as a judge. You know very well that Allah will be the Judge as was in the case of the Qur'an. You have answered your own silly question. Well done!
My question was deliberately raised to expose your falsehoods, ridiculous and impossibility of the Challenge in the Quran as I had argued above.
1. The challenge is impossible to be judge by humans except Allah.
2. But Allah cannot be proven and it is impossible for God to exists.
3. Therefore the challenge in the Quran cannot be possible.

The challenge only exists because it and the Quran was authored by humans.

Last edited by Continuum; 06-17-2016 at 10:27 PM..
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Old 06-17-2016, 11:29 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
of 'argumentum ad poplulum'.

My question was deliberately raised to expose your falsehoods, ridiculous and impossibility of the Challenge in the Quran as I had argued above.
1. The challenge is impossible to be judge by humans except Allah.
2. But Allah cannot be proven and it is impossible for God to exists.
3. Therefore the challenge in the Quran cannot be possible.

The challenge only exists because it and the Quran was authored by humans.
I am really very impressed

In this logic
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Old 06-17-2016, 11:58 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
Reputation: 204
amroee-al-kes had died before the Prophet thirty years. There is no doubt that the poem has remained present in the Arab verbal memory until I got to the Prophet Mohammed, which overabundance of admiration Petrakebha may quote them in the Koran.

This poem transported history

Please apologize because I'm the oldest, without translation and the reason is not to my knowledge of the language Alnkelsahدنت الساعة وانشق القمر عن غزال صاد قلبي ونفر , مر بي يوم العيد في زينة فرماني فتعالى فعقر , سهام من لحظ فاتك فر

عني كهشيم المحتظر , بالضحى والليل من طرته فرقه ذا النور كم شيء زاهر , قلت إذا شق العذار خده دنت الساعة وانشق القمر

These are the verses that match this poem
دنت الساعة وانشق القمر... (سورة القمر: آية 1) " اقتربت الساعة وانشق القمر".

Dent time and split the moon ... (Sura Moon: Verse 1) "split came close at the Moon." فتعاطى فعقر... (سورة القمر: آية 29) " فنادوا صاحبهم فتعاطى فعقر".
كشهيم المحتضر..
Surah Zumar: Verse 29) "And they called keeps company Vtaty Fqr."
Khisham Mahtzer.. (سورة القمر: آية 31) "كهشيم المحتظر".
بالضحى والليل ... (سورة الضحى: آية 1-2) "والضحى والليل إذا سجى".
(Surah Duha: verse 1-2) "and morn and night when it darkens

who want research we can make sure this information
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Old 06-18-2016, 08:39 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What the implication or the claim, it must be verifiable and judge by an entity, god or otherwise.
The fact that the Quran is printed in so many copies only prove it is successful in printing out so many copies. Popularity do not mean that everyone who has a copy understood it thoroughly.
Understanding it is another subject. Writing something similar is another. Implication of the claim is that you can't do it.

Quote:
If you want to claim it can only be from God, the simple proof is to prove God exists as real. Why go about the complicated process of proving God exist based on popularity and drag it all sorts of fallacies and falsehoods to support it?
Now you are moving away from the challenge because you know very well that such a book can't be written by any man and claimed to be the Word of God. The challenge is briliiant for another reason, you write a similar book, claim it to be the Word of God. If it succeeds being accepted as the Word of God as the Qur'an has been accepted, you will have brilliant proof that God does not exist because even a man can write such a book as the Qur'an. But you can't, can you?

Quote:
Simple point? That reflect on your VERY incompetence in thinking properly and critically.
The claim of success based on popularity is one of the worst kind of fallacy [error] in rational and logical thinking;

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including
appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, and bandwagon fallacy (also known as a vox populi),[2] ..

.. and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans").

It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect. The Chinese proverb "three men make a tiger" concerns the same idea.

I hope you have enough humanity to understand the above fallacy of 'argumentum ad poplulum' and the consequences of its use. To rely on 'argumentum ad poplulum' is to insist on falsehoods.
Obviously you are worried that your written Word of God will neither be popular nor be accepted as the Word of God. So you are coming up with all kind of excuses. Why even make a claim about the Qur'an when you can't meet its challenge? The Qur'an had no judge. Why are you looking for a judge to your written "Word of Allah"? Just commit the "crime" and don't worry about there being no judge.

Quote:
Actually the question itself is to reveal your nonsense and that of Allah who has issued an impossible and ridiculous challenge.
Grapes are sour! I understand your excuses.

Quote:
Your answer to my question reveals that you understood, no human[s] can judge the challenge, therefore only can judge the challenge.
But Allah cannot appear to make any judgement because Allah do not exists in the first place and you cannot prove Allah exists as real.
Who judged the Qur'an? Did Allah appear to judge it? Why are you talking nonsense?

Quote:
Therefore the challenge issued by Allah is an impossible challenge.
If the Qur'an is possible, your book can be possible, if there is no God. All you have to do is write a similar book and claim it to be the Word of God instead of putting out all kind of silly excuses. That would give you perfect tool to prove that the Qur'an was written by humans and that God does not exist. Put your money where your mouth is!

Quote:
We conclude the Quran was authored by human[s], because if the Quran was supposed to be issued by an all powerful God, that God would not issued such a ridiculous and embarrassment challenge. [A]
We conclude that the Qur'an is from God and humans like Continuum cannot write it or else they would have done it long time ago to prove that the Qur'an is not from God but from humans like them.

Quote:
You are getting worse. What are you talking about here?
Note in a gymnastic or any competition where judgement is necessary, the event [the performance of the sport person] do not judge. The judging of the performance[event, set of activity] is done by a panel of judges who are humans.
The judgement on an authored book in comparison to other books, etc. is a subjective affairs which need humans to judge.
Your analogies as excuses are getting worse. How was the Qur'an judged; by gymnastic judges? Pathetic!

Quote:
I have asked what do you meant by success.
You replied it is base on polarity.
But I have countered the reliance on popularity is a fallacy, i.e. 'argumentum ad poplulum' - see above.
Your comprehension of a written text is very poor! Not only that but you are making false claims about what you asked and what I replied.

You had written "popularity"; not me:

"If you based on an event [popularity] that event still have to be judged by human[s] to ensure it is credible and justifiable."

I responded:

"Who judged the Qur'an being Word of Allah? Can you name any man?

"You write ten Surahs and claim them to be words of Allah, you be the judge that they are from Allah. If they do not succeed as the Qur'an, the Word of Allah, succeeded then you will have the answer to your question of OP".


I had written 'succeeded' (as in being accepted Word of Allah). Now you are either deliberately twisting what I had written or your comprehension of a written text is very poor..

Quote:
This is a silly argument.
I don't believe in God, why should I write a book and claim it is from God.
Why miss a perfect opportunity to prove the Qur'an can be written by human like Continuum as the Word of God and can succeed in being accepted as the Word of God even though there is no God???

Quote:
The basis of the challenge from Allah is this;
1. Allah exists and Allah is all powerful and all-knowing.
2. Only an all powerful and all-knowing Allah can author such a book.
3. Thus if anyone can author a better book [in the like of the Quran], then Allah is not that all powerful and all knowing.

Note if no one can achieve 3, the above do not prove conclusively Allah exists.
It merely prove that the Quran is the best book on Earth as claimed to be written by a God.
One still have to prove the claim, God exists.
You are trying your best to divert the topic of the Qur'an as Word of God to the existence of God. The challenge is not about existence of God but a book claimed to be the Word of God cannot be authored by any human. I rephrase your No. 3:

3. Thus if anyone can author a similar book [like the Quran], claim it as the Word of God (authored by God), if it succeeds in being accepted as the Word of God just as the Qur'an has been accepted as the Word of God then Allah is not the author of the Qur'an.

That basically is the challenge, and onus is on you to take up the challenge to prove that the Qur'an is not the Word of God but the words of a man or men.

Quote:
Note your whole argument is grounded on the ultimate first premise which is false, i.e. God exists which is impossible to be true, unless you can prove it. You have admitted you cannot prove it and you are rely on faith.
The fact that you can't prove the Qur'an is not the Word of God but of a human being, by authoring a similar book as the Word of God, you admit that it can't be done and thus fail to prove that the Qur'an is not authored by God. You have a perfect opportunity to prove the Qur'an is authored by human but you are making all kind of excuses to avoid proving yourself correct.

Quote:
Thus your fundamental ground of your first premise is false and all your conclusions therefrom are false.
Agree?
There is no room for you to deny this!
You utterly fail to prove your own point even though the Qur'an is giving you a clear opportunity.

Quote:
My question was deliberately raised to expose your falsehoods, ridiculous and impossibility of the Challenge in the Quran as I had argued above.
1. The challenge is impossible to be judge by humans except Allah.
2. But Allah cannot be proven and it is impossible for God to exists.
3. Therefore the challenge in the Quran cannot be possible.

The challenge only exists because it and the Quran was authored by humans.
The challenge in the Qur'an is precisely for people like you to prove that the Qur'an can be authored by humans. Just parroting that God does not exist so you are not going to take up the challenge is admitting defeat, and your claim that the Qur'an is authored by human or humans has met a perfect challenge.
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Old 06-18-2016, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Understanding it is another subject. Writing something similar is another. Implication of the claim is that you can't do it.
Deflecting and Off topic.

Quote:
Now you are moving away from the challenge because you know very well that such a book can't be written by any man and claimed to be the Word of God. The challenge is briliiant for another reason, you write a similar book, claim it to be the Word of God. If it succeeds being accepted as the Word of God as the Qur'an has been accepted, you will have brilliant proof that God does not exist because even a man can write such a book as the Qur'an. But you can't, can you?
First the challenge is an impossible and ridiculous challenge.

What kind of stupidity is that, i.e.
The book is popular.
Therefore God exists.

I am capable of writing a better book than the Quran for the purpose of spirituality for mankind.
In this case, you tell me who is to judge which is better.
But for you to insist, the criteria is to be based on popularity is stupid because of the fallacy of argumentum ad populum.


Quote:
Obviously you are worried that your written Word of God will neither be popular nor be accepted as the Word of God. So you are coming up with all kind of excuses. Why even make a claim about the Qur'an when you can't meet its challenge? The Qur'an had no judge. Why are you looking for a judge to your written "Word of Allah"? Just commit the "crime" and don't worry about there being no judge.
I am very confident the book I write will be very popular but even if my book outsold the Quran, I will never use such popularity as a basis my book is better than the Quran because such a basis is fallacious.
My book will be >100 times better than the Quran in terms of spiritual value to humanity and we will need a panel of judges that is acceptable to you and the majority of rational people.

Quote:
Grapes are sour! I understand your excuses.
This is blabbering. Show me your arguments to justify your view.
Quote:
Who judged the Qur'an? Did Allah appear to judge it? Why are you talking nonsense?
There was no challenge to the Quran in comparison to other books because no wise person will issue such a stupid and ridiculous impossible challenge.
If Allah insist on such a stupid challenge then Allah [if Allah exists] then Allah must be around to deliberate and decide on the results of the challenge.
But it is a fact the challenger cannot appear to judge nor decide on the results of the challenge.


Quote:
If the Qur'an is possible, your book can be possible, if there is no God. All you have to do is write a similar book and claim it to be the Word of God instead of putting out all kind of silly excuses. That would give you perfect tool to prove that the Qur'an was written by humans and that God does not exist. Put your money where your mouth is!
The present Quran is possible because humans make it possible. The fact is there is a present Quran but that do not mean the present Quran is authored by Allah. To claim it is authored by Allah, there is a need for proofs, and first to prove Allah exists.

1. All books are authored by human(s) [this is obvious and can be proven].
2. The present Quran is a book.
3. Therefore the Quran is authored by human[s].

The above is the default of reality.
If you want to prove any except to the default, then you have to provide proofs.
If you cannot provide proofs, then the default remains which is very obvious.

Quote:
We conclude that the Qur'an is from God and humans like Continuum cannot write it or else they would have done it long time ago to prove that the Qur'an is not from God but from humans like them.
You are just blabbering and handwaving without proofs nor justifications.
As you have understood, the reliability of your conclusion is based on your first premise.
Your fundamental premise [God exists as real] is flawed, therefore your conclusion above is flawed.

Quote:
Your analogies as excuses are getting worse. How was the Qur'an judged; by gymnastic judges? Pathetic!
You don't even understand the purpose of analogies.
If there is to be challenge, there must be judgement which is the same as judgement in the sports of gymnastics and other activities that need judgment.

Quote:
Your comprehension of a written text is very poor! Not only that but you are making false claims about what you asked and what I replied.

You had written "popularity"; not me:

"If you based on an event [popularity] that event still have to be judged by human[s] to ensure it is credible and justifiable."

I responded:

"Who judged the Qur'an being Word of Allah? Can you name any man?

"You write ten Surahs and claim them to be words of Allah, you be the judge that they are from Allah. If they do not succeed as the Qur'an, the Word of Allah, succeeded then you will have the answer to your question of OP".


I had written 'succeeded' (as in being accepted Word of Allah). Now you are either deliberately twisting what I had written or your comprehension of a written text is very poor..
Succeeded would imply the Quran is accepted by 1.5 billion people. That meant the Quran is popular in that sense.

Note the relevant meaning of "popular" that is relevant to this case;
Popular | Define Popular at Dictionary.com
1. regarded with favor, approval, or affection by people in general:
2. regarded with favor, approval, or affection by an acquaintance or acquaintances:
5. prevailing among the people generally:
6. suited to or intended for the general masses of people:
popular music.
7. adapted to the ordinary intelligence or taste:
I have no issue if you insist on "succeeded" which would be a more disadvantage to your claim.

Now define what do you meant by 'succeeded'?
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Old 06-18-2016, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Why miss a perfect opportunity to prove the Qur'an can be written by human like Continuum as the Word of God and can succeed in being accepted as the Word of God even though there is no God???
This is another stupid insistence of yours.
The Quran challenge is to any non-believer, not just specifically one person.
I have argued why the Quran challenge is impossible, ridiculous and stupid.

Let say I am willing to take up the challenge.
Now you tell me what are the criteria and who are to judge whether my challenge is better or not-better than the Quran.

Quote:
You are trying your best to divert the topic of the Qur'an as Word of God to the existence of God. The challenge is not about existence of God but a book claimed to be the Word of God cannot be authored by any human. I rephrase your No. 3:

3. Thus if anyone can author a similar book [like the Quran], claim it as the Word of God (authored by God), if it succeeds in being accepted as the Word of God just as the Qur'an has been accepted as the Word of God then Allah is not the author of the Qur'an.

That basically is the challenge, and onus is on you to take up the challenge to prove that the Qur'an is not the Word of God but the words of a man or men.
It is most likely the Quran was authored by human[s].
That is why to ensure mine or the efforts of others who want to take up the challenge, there is a need to prove God exists to make that challenge.

Note there is a One Million Dollar challenge by the Randi James for anyone who can prove, subject scientific verification, that the supernatural exists as real.
Now if you want to take up that challenge, then you have to prove Randi James [or his foundation] exists and there is credibility that such a challenge exists and one is able to be a position to claim the $1m if one's challenge is valid.

It is the same for the Quran's challenge. We have to make sure in the first place Allah exists as real to author the Quran and ensure it was not written by humans as claimed. This is a very reasonable requests and condition to ensure efforts are not wasted on ridiculous, impossible and stupid challenges.

The above is imperative for the Quran challenge.

However I am willing to compromise temporary at the risk of wasting my efforts.
As stated above;
Let say I am willing to take up the challenge.
Now you tell me what are the criteria and who are to judge whether my challenge is better or not-better than the Quran?

Quote:
The fact that you can't prove the Qur'an is not the Word of God but of a human being, by authoring a similar book as the Word of God, you admit that it can't be done and thus fail to prove that the Qur'an is not authored by God. You have a perfect opportunity to prove the Qur'an is authored by human but you are making all kind of excuses to avoid proving yourself correct.
I have proven to you why the Quran is very impossible, ridiculous and stupid. That is why no wise religion or authors will ever issue such a challenge.

Note the odds are stacked against the Quran Challenge, i.e.

1. It is impossible for God to exists as real to issue such a challenge.
2. What are the criteria and who is the judge the challenge?

In the above, I can set aside the first premise but what is your answer to the 2nd requirements.


Quote:
You utterly fail to prove your own point even though the Qur'an is giving you a clear opportunity.
Again this is baseless blabbering without justifications.

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The challenge in the Qur'an is precisely for people like you to prove that the Qur'an can be authored by humans. Just parroting that God does not exist so you are not going to take up the challenge is admitting defeat, and your claim that the Qur'an is authored by human or humans has met a perfect challenge.
Why accuse me of parroting when what I am going for is the truth. Don't you respect the truth.
However I understand fully why believers like you will never respect the truth when it on matter that relate your religion beliefs. Because the focus is on your salvation and desperate psychology you are willing to sacrifice truth for lies to be saved.

As I had argued the requirement to prove God exists as real is critical and rational. This is to avoid the waste of efforts to chase an impossibility.
Surely you should be responsible to ensure we are not talking about an impossibility.

Even then I am willing to close one eye to this requirement and ask you for the 2nd requirements on the criteria [properly justified] and who are to be the judges?
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Old 06-22-2016, 01:51 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Now you are moving away from the challenge because you know very well that such a book can't be written by any man and claimed to be the Word of God. The challenge is briliiant for another reason, you write a similar book, claim it to be the Word of God. If it succeeds being accepted as the Word of God as the Qur'an has been accepted, you will have brilliant proof that God does not exist because even a man can write such a book as the Qur'an. But you can't, can you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
First the challenge is an impossible and ridiculous challenge.

What kind of stupidity is that, i.e.
The book is popular.
Therefore God exists.
That is a stupid reply to what I wrote above. I am giving up on you that you will ever comprehend a written text properly. I did not write "book is popular".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Obviously you are worried that your written Word of God will neither be popular nor be accepted as the Word of God. So you are coming up with all kind of excuses. Why even make a claim about the Qur'an when you can't meet its challenge? The Qur'an had no judge. Why are you looking for a judge to your written "Word of Allah"? Just commit the "crime" and don't worry about there being no judge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am capable of writing a better book than the Quran for the purpose of spirituality for mankind.
That is not the challenge from the Qur'an. You need to write a book like the Qur'an (the Qur'an is claimed to be the Word of God) and promote it as the Word of God. You will fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In this case, you tell me who is to judge which is better.
The same judge that was judge of the Qur'an. People accepted it as the Word of God. The Qur'an succeeded in being accepted as the Words of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
But for you to insist, the criteria is to be based on popularity is stupid because of the fallacy of argumentum ad populum.
No. You are imagining that the criteria is based on popularity. Even the Qur'an does not base it on popularity. You are just imagining the popularity of the Qur'an and you are unable to get it out of your mind. My criterion is not the popularity but being accepted by people as Words of God. You are completely ignoring this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am very confident the book I write will be very popular but even if my book outsold the Quran, I will never use such popularity as a basis my book is better than the Quran because such a basis is fallacious.
Your book will never be accepted as the Words of God as the Qur'an has been accepted as the Words of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My book will be >100 times better than the Quran in terms of spiritual value to humanity and we will need a panel of judges that is acceptable to you and the majority of rational people.
The challenge is not to write a book of spirituality from a man but a book of Words of God, like the Qur'an, revealed by God. You will have to write it, claim it as Word of God revealed to you. Are you ready to take up the challenge? Good luck!
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Old 06-22-2016, 04:44 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That is a stupid reply to what I wrote above. I am giving up on you that you will ever comprehend a written text properly. I did not write "book is popular".



That is not the challenge from the Qur'an. You need to write a book like the Qur'an (the Qur'an is claimed to be the Word of God) and promote it as the Word of God. You will fail.

The same judge that was judge of the Qur'an. People accepted it as the Word of God. The Qur'an succeeded in being accepted as the Words of God.

No. You are imagining that the criteria is based on popularity. Even the Qur'an does not base it on popularity. You are just imagining the popularity of the Qur'an and you are unable to get it out of your mind. My criterion is not the popularity but being accepted by people as Words of God. You are completely ignoring this point.

Your book will never be accepted as the Words of God as the Qur'an has been accepted as the Words of God.

The challenge is not to write a book of spirituality from a man but a book of Words of God, like the Qur'an, revealed by God. You will have to write it, claim it as Word of God revealed to you. Are you ready to take up the challenge? Good luck!
Word on the street is that L. Ron Hubbard pretty much did a similar thing. Only he used aliens.

The principle is: There's a sucker born every minute.
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