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Old 06-16-2016, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
12,351 posts, read 7,510,898 times
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I consider myself a reasonably well-educated and cosmopolitan(??) individual. I've never traveled outside North America, but I've had a fair amount of exposure to people with an Islamic background, including a sister-in-law married to an Iranian engineer, who stayed on my family's farm with her two sons when the gentlemen was "marooned" during the "troubles" of 1979-1982 (fortunately, he was eventually able to leave).

But that was thirty years ago; and while I still have occasional contacts with acquaintances and peripheral relatives of Islamic origin, most of my exposure over the past five years was from work -- and in a blue-collar environment.

The warehouse where I worked started hiring a number of Muslim ladies as order-pickers several years ago; they're easily recognizable via their dress, are almost always efficient and responsible, but usually leave within a few months, often to be rehired again in a similar pattern.

But the problem here was that the newcomers would communicate as little as possible -- only when direct contact with supervisors was necessary, and once in a while, with a small circle of other women. Most of us recognized, of course, that communication with males, other than in an occupational context, was forbidden. And the apparent lack of Muslim men doubtless accentuated the disparity. And a request for a small space in which to fulfill their obligations to pray (granted) was a similar potentially-polarizing factor.

The employer pursues a policy of diversity, and the high demands for physical productivity, combined with a policy of "lose your temper and lose your job" tends to downplay racial and ethnic conflicts, and create a somewhat-limited sense of esprit de corps among those who meet the standards, but I have to view the apparent deference to Islamic cultural taboos as a sign of weakness.

So I'd like some suggestions from a those here more familiar with the underlying cultural gap as to how the problem could be addressed and defused.
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quite often what people assume to be religious barriers are actually national origen barriers. What country are most of these women from?

Also if these women are recent immigrants there may be a language barrier.

For starters what do you perceive as being the single biggest problem?
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Old 06-16-2016, 11:44 PM
 
4,418 posts, read 1,646,121 times
Reputation: 1538
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
I consider myself a reasonably well-educated and cosmopolitan(??) individual. I've never traveled outside North America, but I've had a fair amount of exposure to people with an Islamic background, including a sister-in-law married to an Iranian engineer, who stayed on my family's farm with her two sons when the gentlemen was "marooned" during the "troubles" of 1979-1982 (fortunately, he was eventually able to leave).

But that was thirty years ago; and while I still have occasional contacts with acquaintances and peripheral relatives of Islamic origin, most of my exposure over the past five years was from work -- and in a blue-collar environment.

The warehouse where I worked started hiring a number of Muslim ladies as order-pickers several years ago; they're easily recognizable via their dress, are almost always efficient and responsible, but usually leave within a few months, often to be rehired again in a similar pattern.

But the problem here was that the newcomers would communicate as little as possible -- only when direct contact with supervisors was necessary, and once in a while, with a small circle of other women. Most of us recognized, of course, that communication with males, other than in an occupational context, was forbidden. And the apparent lack of Muslim men doubtless accentuated the disparity. And a request for a small space in which to fulfill their obligations to pray (granted) was a similar potentially-polarizing factor.

The employer pursues a policy of diversity, and the high demands for physical productivity, combined with a policy of "lose your temper and lose your job" tends to downplay racial and ethnic conflicts, and create a somewhat-limited sense of esprit de corps among those who meet the standards, but I have to view the apparent deference to Islamic cultural taboos as a sign of weakness.

So I'd like some suggestions from a those here more familiar with the underlying cultural gap as to how the problem could be addressed and defused.
What's the problem, again?
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Old 06-17-2016, 12:02 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Quite often what people assume to be religious barriers are actually national origin barriers. What country are most of these women from?

Also if these women are recent immigrants there may be a language barrier.

For starters what do you perceive as being the single biggest problem?
In the present circumstances, the difference is it do not happen with immigrants from other religions.

Based on my observations it is likely 90% of immigrants [females] from other religions are very friendly and sociable while 10% may be very reserved due to their being introvert personality etc.

On the other hand we find 95% of Muslims immigrants [females] do not mix freely while 5% may be friendly but never very friendly. There is a air of restraint from Islam on their women folk.
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Old 06-17-2016, 12:50 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
So I'd like some suggestions from a those here more familiar with the underlying cultural gap as to how the problem could be addressed and defused.
I don't think there is much you can do because it is due to the inherent nature of restraints on the women within Islam, i.e. as commands from Allah.
The restraints are more oppressing on the Muslimahs [female Muslims] especially in the present climate where a good Muslimah is one that is seen in terms of regressivenes in what they wear [how much they cover up] and their behaviors. This is evident to Tom, Dick or Harry over the recent years in US and every where else.

There may be one or two rare Muslimah who are friendly by nature but 95% of them are caught within the chains of Islam to be as reserved as possible or else they may end up in Hell.

There are so many various verses in the Quran in so many contexts that put pressure on the Muslimah to conform to please Allah which will ensure they will go to Paradise.
No Muslimahs will want to end up in Hell, so they will comply to Allah words as much as possible and this is often exploited and exaggerated by sexist so-called Islamic experts and advisers.

Here are the various conditions that prevent the Muslimah from being friendly, sociable, interact with others which is a real hindrance in projects that need teamwork and closer interactions.

In General
1. The non-Muslim is by default should be treated with aloofness, stern-ness and with suspicion by Muslims. 5:54 & other verses.
2. A Muslim or Muslimah cannot be friend [awliya, ally, associate, take as guardian,] with non-Muslims. 4:89 & many other verses.
3. A Muslim or Muslimah cannot be intimate friend with non-Muslims. 3:118

For Female Muslims:
There are so many verses in the Quran and worse in the Ahadith that oppress the female Muslims to conform to the sexist male expectations.

With so much threats [subliminal and explicitly] hovering over them, a Muslimah will unconsciously behave very conservatively and reserve to any male and more so to non-Muslim males and females.
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Old 06-17-2016, 07:38 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't think there is much you can do because it is due to the inherent nature of restraints on the women within Islam, i.e. as commands from Allah.
The restraints are more oppressing on the Muslimahs [female Muslims] especially in the present climate where a good Muslimah is one that is seen in terms of regressivenes in what they wear [how much they cover up] and their behaviors. This is evident to Tom, Dick or Harry over the recent years in US and every where else.

There may be one or two rare Muslimah who are friendly by nature but 95% of them are caught within the chains of Islam to be as reserved as possible or else they may end up in Hell.

There are so many various verses in the Quran in so many contexts that put pressure on the Muslimah to conform to please Allah which will ensure they will go to Paradise.
No Muslimahs will want to end up in Hell, so they will comply to Allah words as much as possible and this is often exploited and exaggerated by sexist so-called Islamic experts and advisers.

Here are the various conditions that prevent the Muslimah from being friendly, sociable, interact with others which is a real hindrance in projects that need teamwork and closer interactions.

In General
1. The non-Muslim is by default should be treated with aloofness, stern-ness and with suspicion by Muslims. 5:54 & other verses.
2. A Muslim or Muslimah cannot be friend [awliya, ally, associate, take as guardian,] with non-Muslims. 4:89 & many other verses.
3. A Muslim or Muslimah cannot be intimate friend with non-Muslims. 3:118

For Female Muslims:
There are so many verses in the Quran and worse in the Ahadith that oppress the female Muslims to conform to the sexist male expectations.

With so much threats [subliminal and explicitly] hovering over them, a Muslimah will unconsciously behave very conservatively and reserve to any male and more so to non-Muslim males and females.
Most of the above linked to Islam as a reason is nonsense.

My two daughters understand Islam quite well. Both are teachers in different state schools where there are several male non-Muslim teachers. One daughter is the only Muslim teacher in her school. Both have no problem in communicating (in English) with male colleagues in school and children's fathers during the parents evening.

Language is the main problem in work situations where women who can't speak English tend to keep themselves to themselves.
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Old 06-17-2016, 10:35 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Most of the above linked to Islam as a reason is nonsense.

My two daughters understand Islam quite well. Both are teachers in different state schools where there are several male non-Muslim teachers. One daughter is the only Muslim teacher in her school. Both have no problem in communicating (in English) with male colleagues in school and children's fathers during the parents evening.

Language is the main problem in work situations where women who can't speak English tend to keep themselves to themselves.
You did not read my post properly, then you criticize my views baselessly. In addition what I have posted are all extracted from the Quran, i.e. Allah's words and not my words.

Note my point above.
There may be one or two rare Muslimah who are friendly by nature but 95% of them are caught within the chains of Islam to be as reserved as possible or else they may end up in Hell.

It is only your personal claim but we do not know what is the actual situation. In most cases where there is only one Muslimah amongst non-Muslims, that Muslimah has no choice but to interact with non-Muslims. If there are more Muslims as in the OP's case, then it is a different story and the ethos of Islam will surface.

If yous daughters are truly and genuinely sociable and interact freely [morally] with non-Muslims then they are a rarity [as mentioned] but there is no guarantee they will not fall victim to that "us versus them" ethos [from 55% of verses] from the Quran.
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