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Old 06-18-2016, 01:19 AM
 
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Muhammad's followers were not exceed 100 in Mecca

Mecca knew Muhammad Bashir and Nazir while Medina built by prophet
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Old 06-24-2016, 12:13 PM
 
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Alright, let's see if I can address specific issues.

Before we start though, my articles are not meant to be picked apart by section. They are meant to be taken as a whole.

Given that, I will highlight issues that I have a strong opinion on, and comment in blue. Keep in mind that this isn't so much that I'm dismissing or ignoring questions, as it is that I work at a library right now, and juggle work with posting.

Let's see if I can explain this correctly, and please don't fault me if I mess up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
An awful lot to assimilate in a single thread. Begining at the end and working back from there.


We do not view Muhammad(saws) to be the founder of Islam, nor even that he taught anything new.

Islam is not a new religion, The message of Islam is what was revealed by all the Prophets(pbut) in the past. The message is very short and very concize that message being Islam. (Submission to and worship of only one God)

All of the Prophets(pbut) are equal although each had different purposes or were for a specific people at a specific time. Muhammad(swt) is the final messenger and there will be no other Messengers after Him. Our last chance to get it right and not mess it up again.

There is a distinct problem with this. Because he is a final messenger, this means that anyone coming after him is false. It also implies that his word is infallible, and cannot be questioned. Unfortunately, has been done in Roman Catholicism. It lead to the Protestant Reformation because the Pope effectively declared something random about buying forgiveness for one's sins. Having the original person to create the de facto Islam, whether you consider him founder or not, means that in the centuries since he spread his movement, nothing is able to change. There are new advances in technology, ways of thinking, art, and science. But to say that

The other problem is that for a final message, it is at odds with Judaism and Christianity. In fact, the "one last chance to get it right" sounds too much like shame theology. This message in fact bears more resemblance to the secular teachings of the world. The world teaches that one doesn't measure up. One isn't pretty enough, smart enough, rich enough. A good enough worker. That one needs to buy or possess things, or drive oneself into an early grave to measure up. This is the secular world, and nothing new as you say. But it is also nothing worth worship. Yes, there is evil in the world, however the belief is that God loved us so much that he bore our sin for us. Why is our God worth it? Because he cares for even the most wretched of us. This is a new teaching. Islam? They just kinda sorta stepped back into the shame and expectation of the secular world.

The Romans, the Nazis, and the Marxists all had this shame mentality. They all killed hundreds of thousands of people for not measuring up. But let's ignore that for a second and focus on the idea that shame keeps people in line. Does it?

Let's examine a dog. I raise a dog and pet it, groom it, love it, and give it treats. I may punish it if it acts out, but overall I love this dog. If a child comes to the house, this dog is generally going to be gentle. It has never known pain so why would it hurt something else (there is such a thing as being too permissive, but in general). Now, on the other hand we have a dog that we treat like garbage. I beat it, I chain it to a fence, and I ignore it. It yaps, so I say "shut up, you ****ing dog!" and kick it. This dog might be an okay guard dog, but it is dangerous for any visitors.

I have raised dogs, both ways. We had a dog named scratch who was chained and neglected. He bit people. We have a dog now named Henry who is practically spoiled. He doesn't even bark, and he is gentle with children.

Shame - and how it backfires on you - Best Kept Self

Shame typically has the effect of making people depressed, suicidal, and angry. They walk away with the attitude "no matter what I do, it's never good enough, so why should I give a ****?" They are also more likely to commit crimes because they are already villains in their own mind.




The concept of Nabi differs a little from the English word Prophet



Muhammad(saws) was a Rasoul, he did not deliver a new revelation, he confirmed what was given through the past Prophets.

Technically no building is a Mosque. The actual Masjid (Mosque) is the area we stand in when we pray, there are over 1.7 individual Masjids world wide. Each Muslim has his own Masjid and it is where ever he is when he prays.

To understand Islam it may help to understand our hierarchy of clergy.---There is none as we have no ordained clergy. Every Muslim is clergy and all are equal, meaning they all leave the same size hole in the water when they step outside the pool. We have no ordained preachers, evangelists, Mosque leaders or other religious big-shots that have any form of clergy leadership over us. We have no Temple, Church or Mosque leaders.

Uhhhh, the guys who get people to pray five times daily? Are these not Muslim clerics? There also informal groups. I have seen the movie Desert Dancer, there is a "morality police" in some countries (the Basij in Iran) who govern right behavior.

As for the Orlando Shooter, He himself acknowledges alliance to ISIS. ISIS does not represent Islam.

Unfortunately, this is not the case. I wish it were. There are over 108 verses that incite violence of some sort in the Qu'ran.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/p.../violence.aspx

Well, maybe they exaggerated or mistranslated, I thought. So I looked some of the passages up here...

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Nope, it looks like the same translation.

There are even verses that state Muslims cannot even be truthful to other belief systems about what their book says. Meaning, I could show you countless examples of instances where the Qu'ran or other books where it showed Muhammad himself condoning violence. You would have to deny it. If Muhammad himself condoned such violence, this means that ISIS does represent Islam.
Please do not think that I am trying to convert anyone to Christianity here. I want you all to stay Muslims. I, however, believe that Islam is long overdue for a reform of some sort.

Most of it, I leave up to the followers how this reform is to take place, except one thing. No other religious rule would reward killing others with an afterlife filled with virgins.

The way Christians and other belief sets become martyrs? They die for their faith. The way people of Islam become martyrs? They kill people, usually suiciding themselves in the process. Why is this important?

The cosmology of Islamic heaven defines things in a largely wish-fulfillment term. As in, I would like to hurt people I don't like and die in a gory mess, and have some religious leader tell me not only is all forgiven, but I have been doing exactly as I should. You know, I'd also like to eat a cheeseburger and lose ten pounds. But this isn't realistic as an idea. This universe follows rational rules of conduct. God does forgive sins, but doesn't encourage violent sins as a moral good. Biblical truth tells you to treat others as you would want, and generally, this works in practice.

Quote:
34And when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they themselves gathered together. 35One of them, an expert in the Law, tested Him with a question: 36“Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?”

37Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’d 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’e 40All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments.”
Did you notice? What is the Greatest Commandment (singular)? But Jesus answers with what seems to be two answers. ...They're not.

Quote:
31When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and cloth You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’

45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’

46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Whenever you treat others to violence, you do it to God. And to yourself. You are hurting your own soul! Because all three: self, other, and God are actually the same thing.

Hell is not where God punishes you. So, to answer the "what's in it for me?" as long you declare others to be infidels, the person who suffers most from your violence is you. If you survive, you get to look at the glares of people who very definitely think you did something wrong. You get to face the ghosts of people, in their effect on the families of those who died. You get to die, knowing in the back of your mind that there is something weird about this "Paradise" you are promised. What, you ask? Well, as soon as you die, you are likely to punish yourself. Islam will not save you from this. Nor will good deeds. Because your punishment is from you.

Pope Says Hell Is a Self-Inflicted Fate - latimes

You have just chosen to split yourself from the presence of the real God, for a god who does not know your name. You have chosen to forsake people who can give you love and joy, in favor of the words of a dead man. Even if nobody sent you to Hell, you would be living there.

Let go of that. And choose this. To become Muslims, as Muslims were intended to be by God. Not Muslims declared to a path by a man who by all accounts may have hallucinated the whole thing, and definitely does not seem like he can be trusted. That man will send you to a Hell of your own making. Following your own path, even if others may declare you an apostate, that will save you. You will be able to say "I have given to the poor, I have shown that my religion indeed is a religion of peace and not a lie, I have no families that hate me. Even if Muhammad thinks I go to Hell, I have nothing to be ashamed of, because I know better."
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Old 06-24-2016, 05:33 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 663,807 times
Reputation: 204
(You're dead and they are Dead (30) then youre the Day of Resurrection when your Lord Takhtsamun (31) it is darkest of those who lied to God and lied honest statement came as Alice home in hell for disbelievers (32)
this is Mohamed
Who wants research to know that God is one
Thou better for him to review the Torah
He prefers to answer to him about God
So humanity does not need a new messenger
Like Muhammad
Who was killed and enchant women and the legalization of the spoils
Anyone who reads the Koran and Islam knows knows these facts
But it is packaged various means of deception and terrorism
Mohammed is a distortion to the one God in the Torah
Who says that God is Sly does not know God
He says that man is the enemy of God does not know God
Those who sow the teachings of evil is not from God
Look in the teachings of the Koran
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Old 06-24-2016, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
I want you all to stay Muslims. I, however, believe that Islam is long overdue for a reform of some sort.

Most of it, I leave up to the followers how this reform is to take place, except one thing. No other religious rule would reward killing others with an afterlife filled with virgins.
Technically Islam per se cannot be reformed.

1. Islam is represented solely by the Quran directly from Allah.
2. Allah asserted the Quran is completed, perfected and final thus absolutely cannot be changed.
3. Therefore Islam cannot be reformed i.e. is immutable.

The only variable that can be reformed are thus Muslims [the Muslims' brain].

In fact most Muslims [say 80%] are already reforming themselves [not Islam] by ignoring many of the barbaric, evil and violence commands in the Quran [Allah's words] by invoking their humane rationale in defiance of many of Allah's direct commands and exhortations.

In another perspectives regarding 'reformation' like that of the Christian protestants, the Islam reformation had already happened with the Salafis and Wahabbis who insisted on reverting and following the Quran and Ahadiths literally without deviations from what is supposedly Allah's commands.
The Salafis and Wahabbis accused the various modern Islamic schools [madhabs] and others of having deviated from the original teachings of the Quran and the Ahadiths.
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Old 06-24-2016, 10:30 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 663,807 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Technically Islam per se cannot be reformed.

1. Islam is represented solely by the Quran directly from Allah.
2. Allah asserted the Quran is completed, perfected and final thus absolutely cannot be changed.
3. Therefore Islam cannot be reformed i.e. is immutable.
This was agreed upon
You are right, and one hundred percent
Quote:
The only variable that can be reformed are thus Muslims [the Muslims' brain].

In fact most Muslims [say 80%] are already reforming themselves [not Islam] by ignoring many of the barbaric, evil and violence commands in the Quran [Allah's words] by invoking their humane rationale in defiance of many of Allah's direct commands and exhortations.
I think that remains the foundation of Islamic thought in the doctrine of the Muslim Namely that Islamic thought in the refrigerator
It can interact every second and produces a terrorist predecessor model of bin Laden or Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
Quote:
In another perspectives regarding 'reformation' like that of the Christian protestants, the Islam reformation had already happened with the Salafis and Wahabbis who insisted on reverting and following the Quran and Ahadiths literally without deviations from what is supposedly Allah's commands.
The Salafis and Wahabbis accused the various modern Islamic schools [madhabs] and others of having deviated from the original teachings of the Quran and the Ahadiths
.
Yes Wahhabi and Salafi represent the true image of Islam to
They're going down boiled approach Koran in his words
No they do not lie
Either black or white
They are true Muslims
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Old 06-30-2016, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Alright, let's see if I can address specific issues.

Before we start though, my articles are not meant to be picked apart by section. They are meant to be taken as a whole.

Given that, I will highlight issues that I have a strong opinion on, and comment in blue. Keep in mind that this isn't so much that I'm dismissing or ignoring questions, as it is that I work at a library right now, and juggle work with posting.

Let's see if I can explain this correctly, and please don't fault me if I mess up.



Please do not think that I am trying to convert anyone to Christianity here. I want you all to stay Muslims. I, however, believe that Islam is long overdue for a reform of some sort.

Most of it, I leave up to the followers how this reform is to take place, except one thing. No other religious rule would reward killing others with an afterlife filled with virgins.

The way Christians and other belief sets become martyrs? They die for their faith. The way people of Islam become martyrs? They kill people, usually suiciding themselves in the process. Why is this important?

The cosmology of Islamic heaven defines things in a largely wish-fulfillment term. As in, I would like to hurt people I don't like and die in a gory mess, and have some religious leader tell me not only is all forgiven, but I have been doing exactly as I should. You know, I'd also like to eat a cheeseburger and lose ten pounds. But this isn't realistic as an idea. This universe follows rational rules of conduct. God does forgive sins, but doesn't encourage violent sins as a moral good. Biblical truth tells you to treat others as you would want, and generally, this works in practice.



Did you notice? What is the Greatest Commandment (singular)? But Jesus answers with what seems to be two answers. ...They're not.



Whenever you treat others to violence, you do it to God. And to yourself. You are hurting your own soul! Because all three: self, other, and God are actually the same thing.

Hell is not where God punishes you. So, to answer the "what's in it for me?" as long you declare others to be infidels, the person who suffers most from your violence is you. If you survive, you get to look at the glares of people who very definitely think you did something wrong. You get to face the ghosts of people, in their effect on the families of those who died. You get to die, knowing in the back of your mind that there is something weird about this "Paradise" you are promised. What, you ask? Well, as soon as you die, you are likely to punish yourself. Islam will not save you from this. Nor will good deeds. Because your punishment is from you.

Pope Says Hell Is a Self-Inflicted Fate - latimes

You have just chosen to split yourself from the presence of the real God, for a god who does not know your name. You have chosen to forsake people who can give you love and joy, in favor of the words of a dead man. Even if nobody sent you to Hell, you would be living there.

Let go of that. And choose this. To become Muslims, as Muslims were intended to be by God. Not Muslims declared to a path by a man who by all accounts may have hallucinated the whole thing, and definitely does not seem like he can be trusted. That man will send you to a Hell of your own making. Following your own path, even if others may declare you an apostate, that will save you. You will be able to say "I have given to the poor, I have shown that my religion indeed is a religion of peace and not a lie, I have no families that hate me. Even if Muhammad thinks I go to Hell, I have nothing to be ashamed of, because I know better."

Without presenting an argument, I will simply say I cannot comprehend anything that wouldever convince me to return to Christianity. Much of my life was spent as a Christian. About 25 years as a Roman Catholic and 20 as a Pentecostal (Church of God) then 20 years as an Atheist. If Islam had not found me 10 years ago I would still be an Atheist. If for some reason and somehow I were to apostate from Islam, I would return to Atheism, never again back to the errors of Christianity.


What I find to be the greatest attractions of Islam are:


1. It is all about personal responsibility. We alone with no intermediaries between us and God(swt)


2. No earthly central authority


3. No ordained clergy, every Muslim is clergy and all are equal. Every Muslim can be an Imam and open their own Mosque, even if it is just a vacant spot in their back yard. There is no authority that builds mosques or appoints Imams


4. No tithing--ok I'm a cheapskate. But I believe if a person can not afford to be an Imam he probably should not be one. I do not like paid clergy.
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Old 07-01-2016, 12:06 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 663,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

Quote:
1. It is all about personal responsibility. We alone with no intermediaries between us and God(swt)
This talk is not logical
Offer you the following reason
The personal relationship between God and the Muslim and without an intermediary
OK
Where is Mohammed in this equation
Islamic equation is
God + = Mohammed Islam
Mohammed without you I'm not a Muslim and you are an idolater
Go and ask him Faqih
Is it enough faith in God alone even gapes me my sins
Mohammed is the mediator and partner to God in Islam
The first certificate is not acceptable
With this you know that the

(Did not explain to you your chest (1) and put you and your button (2), which will destroy your back (3) and we raised you remembrance (4) the ease with hardship (5) The ease with hardship (6) If the empty Vansb (7) and to the Lord do thou attend whole ( 8))
Look for the correct interpretation to this verse and know who is intended
It is full of mistakes

Quote:
2. No earthly central authority
Central authority is Allah and His Messenger and the successors of the Prophet
The FC authority to carry it a religious nature
But within these Asalkh rain-fed humanitarian authority wickedly



Quote:
3. No ordained clergy, every Muslim is clergy and all are equal. Every Muslim can be an Imam and open their own Mosque, even if it is just a vacant spot in their back yard. There is no authority that builds mosques or appoints Imams
This talk is set up
In the West, it notes this phenomenon, but in countries with predominantly Muslim mosques have guidelines and conditions
Imamate in prayer is a formality which does not mean equality, but type as flaunting and showing off in Islam


Quote:
4. No tithing--ok I'm a cheapskate. But I believe if a person can not afford to be an Imam he probably should not be one. I do not like paid clergy.
This talk also because you live in the West, a kind of pious Islamic
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Old 07-01-2016, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
This talk also because you live in the West, a kind of pious Islamic

True I was born, raised in and currently live in the West. However, I have also lived a number of years in North Africa and the Mideast as a Christian. Never once did I ever experience fear or hatred because I was a Christian Missionary.
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Old 07-01-2016, 11:20 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 663,807 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
True I was born, raised in and currently live in the West. However, I have also lived a number of years in North Africa and the Mideast as a Christian. Never once did I ever experience fear or hatred because I was a Christian Missionary.
Earlier you're working in a US air base
And now you're working in the missionary says
whichever We believe ?????Please explain
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Old 07-02-2016, 06:58 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
Earlier you're working in a US air base
And now you're working in the missionary says
whichever We believe ?????Please explain

I have explained that several times. My Air Force flying career ended in Vietnam (in 1963). after which several events took place. Because of serious injuries I no longer could engage in physical work and went back to school and became a psychologist (Physiological psychology, not clinical) My religious beliefs also became more intense and I had become an "Assembly of God" minister and missionary and for about 20 years I was financially able to travel to Islamic Nations several times each year as an Evangelist (Missionary) which I did until I became an Atheist.


I am not a "Spring Chicken" my feet have walked this earth since 1940 and have traveled many places.
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