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Old 07-02-2016, 10:04 AM
 
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[quote=Continuum;44538432]Technically Islam per se cannot be reformed.[quote]One cannot reform something that is already reformed to perfection.

Quote:
1. Islam is represented solely by the Quran directly from Allah.
2. Allah asserted the Quran is completed, perfected and final thus absolutely cannot be changed.
3. Therefore Islam cannot be reformed i.e. is immutable.
The only way Islam can be reformed is if deviations from its original state are removed, leaving only in its original perfect state.

Quote:
The only variable that can be reformed are thus Muslims [the Muslims' brain].

In fact most Muslims [say 80%] are already reforming themselves [not Islam] by ignoring many of the barbaric, evil and violence commands in the Quran [Allah's words] by invoking their humane rationale in defiance of many of Allah's direct commands and exhortations.
That is not reforming of themselves but keeping to the direct commands and exhortation of Allah.

Your last comment is a clear indication of your ignorance about the commands of Allah in the Qur'an. Such ignorance is assumption that the terrorists are the true Muslims obeying the commands of Allah in the Qur'an and 80% of Muslims are not true Muslims but Deviators.
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Old 07-02-2016, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
Technically Islam per se cannot be reformed.
One cannot reform something that is already reformed to perfection.
Technically and theoretical within the Islam-box only, yes, the Quran cannot be reformed because the Quran itself claimed so that it is already reformed, Perfected, complete and final.

But note, Perfection is merely a thought-idea of which is impossible to be real.
Show me something that is absolutely perfect and prove it.

The Quran merely claimed itself to be perfect but the truth is far from it. The Quran is very far from the ideal of perfection and even far from what is on average considered to be 'good' in the universal basis.

However if we view it from the reality and human perspectives [boxes], i.e. from outside the Islam-box then the Quran can be reformed.
The Quran can easily be reformed by getting rid of the evil laden verse which are not effective but has great evil potentials.

However most Muslims will not agree the Quran can be reformed because they have to obey Allah's word that the Quran cannot be reformed because it is supposed to be "Perfect." To go against Allah's words [even it is not realistic and true] would be a sin and the Muslim's hope of going to Paradise will be shaken. This is merely a psychological problem of high insecurity and spiritual immaturity.

However where Muslims has raised their spiritual intelligence, they will be receptive to reforming themselves and ignoring the evil elements in the Quran. In any case this is problematic as that would mean they are not Muslim per se due to non-compliance with the Quran.

Quote:
The only way Islam can be reformed is if deviations from its original state are removed, leaving only in its original perfect state.
There is no way Islam can be reformed within the Quran-Islam-box because Allah stated so in the Quran. If the Quran is reformed/changed then it is considered corrupted as Allah was accusing the Jews and Christians of corrupting their holy Quran by changing the original wordings.

The problem is Which Human in the World can decide what are the deviations to be changed? Only Allah can do that and Allah cannot appear in the World to make the decision.

Quote:
That is not reforming of themselves but keeping to the direct commands and exhortation of Allah.

Your last comment is a clear indication of your ignorance about the commands of Allah in the Qur'an. Such ignorance is assumption that the terrorists are the true Muslims obeying the commands of Allah in the Qur'an and 80% of Muslims are not true Muslims but Deviators.
I will say again, the only way of reformation is for Muslims-as-human to reform and rewire their brains to be more humane and increase their spiritual intelligence. This mean they have to ignore the evil laden elements within the 6,236 verses of the Quran and be more human and humane by adhering to what is universally "good".

I have stated many times, a Muslim [technically] is person who has entered into a covenant with Allah and thereby has to comply with the rules, doctrines, commands and whatever terms stipulated within the 6,236 verses in the Quran and no where else.

The supposedly 'evil' and 'bad' Muslims [[but good in the eyes of Allah and Quran]
], [e.g. terrorists and others] are truer Muslims because they comply with more terms within the 6,236 verses in the Quran. They comply with the 5 Pillars of Islams, 6 Pillars of Iman, the various Pillars of Inhsaan, and the dictates of many other verses on the martial, social and other aspects of the expectations of the Quran.
These supposed 'evil' Muslims [good in the eyes of Allah and Quran] may commit other sins outside the scope of the Quran but they are not unpardonable sins.

Show me what the terrorists and other supposedly 'evil' has done [significantly] that do not comply with the [DUCK-RABBIT] two truths expectation of the Quran and ethos of Islam. Note ONLY Allah can judge them not YOU [a slave of Allah].

The so-called good and moderate Muslims may comply with the 5 Pillars of Islams, 6 Pillars of Iman, the various Pillars of Inhsaan but the moderates ignore [or are ignorant, naive] or are blind to the calls of Allah on the martial, social, doctrinal and other aspects of the Quran.

The above of who is the "truer" Muslim in accordance to the Quran can be objectively assessed by the number of their compliances in accordance to the Quran.

Example:
I have personally known and seen many Muslims [perform their Islamic duties regularly] who were initially very good progressive human beings, they are VERY friendly to everyone, do lots of charitable work, participate in interfaith discussions, socialize with others freely within Islamic requirements, dress decently, regardless of religions, race, etc. and do what a normal human beings are doing.

However once they get serious into Islam the religion, they attend lectures and meeting with Islamic Scholars, read the Quran & (tafsirs, Ahadiths, Sira, Sunnah,), they suddenly changed drastically, they become less friendly, more reserved and keep to the Muslims bethrens, dressed conservatively [hijab, loose dressings, male-beard-no moustache, etc.], pined for the Sharia Laws, are very sensitive to critiques of Islam and in general become less humane to non-Muslims.

The above is typical of behaviors of the out-of-the-blue jihadists where their parents, relatives and friends suddenly discovered their goody-two-shoe, well mannered child turned out to the jihadists when they were delivered his/her body [in parts] in a body-bag.

Note in the above case you have to take into context the whole 1.5 billion population in their interaction with the elements [good and evil] within the Quran, not merely you and your relatives and friends.
20% of Muslims [like all humans] - a pool of 300 million!! are born with evil tendencies and they are exposed to the much evil laden elements in the Quran and the resultant evil and violent manifestation is very real and the evidence is very glaring.

Point is there is no way you can deny my Hypothesis.

Last edited by Continuum; 07-02-2016 at 10:33 PM..
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Old 07-03-2016, 05:31 AM
 
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What about Baha uh lla, founder of Ba haism. He had written many deep, religious texts. What about Emanuel Swedenborg, the great seer who wrote many deeply perceptive texts. What about Joseph Smith, who single handedly wrote the book of Mormon. They all were deep rooted, spiritual giants, and all came after Islam, and all responsible for huge amounts of spiritual writings. Only Islam seems to hate, deeply, Jews, Christians, Shiites, Sufi's, Hindu's, and so many other groups. Only under the umbrella of Islam, does brutally murderous acts of violence seem to occur non stop. What loving God would find comfort in his followers blowing themselves up, chopping off heads, killing innocents, and etc. What sort of God would this be? Is Allah a God of love? I think the world questions this religion. What sort of God would reward his follower with virgins when they savagely murder children at airports? Look at places like Darfur as one example. The world is weary of this violent religion. Look at the peace loving, beautiful Ba hai's, and the beautiful Sufi's......their lights shine brightly upon the universe. You will know them by the fruits they bear. Just my opinion and view. When will Muslims choose love? When will they eradicate the hate in their hearts? There is no God where love is absent. God is love.

Last edited by folkguitarist555; 07-03-2016 at 05:41 AM..
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Old 07-03-2016, 06:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by folkguitarist555 View Post
What about Baha uh lla, founder of Ba haism. He had written many deep, religious texts.
He was a Muslim born in Persia (present Iran). He hadn't rejected Islam but he had criticized other Muslims for not keeping to the commands in the Qur'an.

Quote:
Only Islam seems to hate, deeply, Jews, Christians, Shiites, Sufi's, Hindu's, and so many other groups.
Islam is personal action of obeying God, taking God's guidance in personal action. Islam does not hate anyone.

Quote:
Only under the umbrella of Islam, does brutally murderous acts of violence seem to occur non stop.
Is it really Islam doing it or evil people?

Quote:
What loving God would find comfort in his followers blowing themselves up, chopping off heads, killing innocents, and etc.
Do they really follow Him? Such a loving God has never commanded them to blow themselves up.

Quote:
I think the world questions this religion.
It is not the religion doing it but people.

Quote:
What sort of God would reward his follower with virgins when they savagely murder children at airports?
That's why I don't do it. I am absolutely certain that I will get no virgin if I did it. Islamdoes not tell me to do so.

Quote:
Look at places like Darfur as one example. The world is weary of this violent religion. Look at the peace loving, beautiful Ba hai's, and the beautiful Sufi's......their lights shine brightly upon the universe. You will know them by the fruits they bear. Just my opinion and view. When will Muslims choose love? When will they eradicate the hate in their hearts? There is no God where love is absent. God is love.
My religion is not violent or else I would be the same as all the violent people. It is wrong to blame the religion and not people who commit evil acts.
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Old 07-03-2016, 06:53 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by folkguitarist555 View Post
What about Baha uh lla, founder of Ba haism. He had written many deep, religious texts. What about Emanuel Swedenborg, the great seer who wrote many deeply perceptive texts. What about Joseph Smith, who single handedly wrote the book of Mormon. They all were deep rooted, spiritual giants, and all came after Islam, and all responsible for huge amounts of spiritual writings. Only Islam seems to hate, deeply, Jews, Christians, Shiites, Sufi's, Hindu's, and so many other groups. Only under the umbrella of Islam, does brutally murderous acts of violence seem to occur non stop. What loving God would find comfort in his followers blowing themselves up, chopping off heads, killing innocents, and etc. What sort of God would this be? Is Allah a God of love? I think the world questions this religion. What sort of God would reward his follower with virgins when they savagely murder children at airports? Look at places like Darfur as one example. The world is weary of this violent religion. Look at the peace loving, beautiful Ba hai's, and the beautiful Sufi's......their lights shine brightly upon the universe. You will know them by the fruits they bear. Just my opinion and view. When will Muslims choose love? When will they eradicate the hate in their hearts? There is no God where love is absent. God is love.
I believe you will find that most of us do not have hate in our hearts.

Islam is very individual, there is no organization or group that speaks for or represents Islam. We each represent only our self.


We are not Muslim because we are members of some group. We are Muslims because we perform the action of Islam. We do not join or belong to a "Religious Group" There is no excommunication in Islam because we do not have membership in a group.

While there are Muslims that have variations in beliefs and practices, they are not Muslim because they belong to any group or organization. they are Muslim because as individuals they perform Islam.

For those who see religion as "Membership" in a system, church, group, denomination or similar it can be difficult to comprehend Islam as we are not organized with any hierarchy of clergy or required membership. We have no ordained clergy as all Muslims are clergy with equal authority. No intermediary religious leaders required nor membership in some mysterious organization.

If a person is acting with hatred or violence, they are not performing Islam. One can not be performing Islam, without desiring for all people more than what they desire for themselves. There are actually numerous groups that utilize the Qur'an as one of their Holy Scriptures for example:

This is just a partial listing

Shi'ite
Sunni
Deobandi
NOI
Sikh
Druze
Yazidi
Baha'i
Most Sufi
Wahhhabi
Salafi
Hanafi
Hanbali
Maliki
Shafi'i
Jafa'ari
Ahmadiyya
Ismaili
Kharijite
Zaidiyyah



Not all of which claim to be Muslim and not all who claim to be Muslim actually perform Islam. It is even possible for a person to be Muslim and not know it. We believe all people are born Muslim and remain Muslim until of their own free will they do not perform the action of Islam. Our first action of Islam, is being born, that is all that is required to be Muslim until we reach the age of understanding and responsibility.
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Old 07-11-2016, 11:28 PM
 
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Let me tell you a story.

It's the Biblical story of Jonah.

Jonah was called to the city to preach to Ninevah, to turn them from their wickedness. He fled for the hills taking a boat to get away. He was swallowed by a large fish until he relented and agreed to go to Ninevah. The average person in Sunday school knows this. What they don't know is that the conversion of Ninevah was massively successful. And afterwards, Jonah sat and sulked. He KNEW they would repent. But he wanted them to be destroyed because despite it being his call, he LOATHED them. He sulked until God burned down a shade tree to prove a point.

Islam is making violence against the other cities of the world. They are guilty of pride and self-righteousness. Fatalism and hypocrisy. It's never their fault that their countries are a wreck. "It's the fault of sinful westerners" they say. They follow a leader, who I have pointed out, is no prophet but a fraud. Who promises paradise for violence. But this is absurd. The way of Islam under Muhammad is sin. Like Jonah, I would just as soon you guys didn't listen. But I'm going to tell you this anyway. Because it is God's will that you do find your own path out of this trap. This is the 10 commandments, and it is why Muhammad is not doing the role of prophet correctly.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
(Christians do not consider it a killable offense to insult God. For it is written "vengeance is mine, I will avenge" and not up to humans to avenge. Yet to insult The Prophet is a death offense in many countries. This means you have made your Prophet and your book into a god)
2. You shall not make idols.
(See above. The Qu'ran is a beautiful artistic book. Your mosques are artistic. But the minute they are considered "holy" you have made them a graven image)
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
(Every time you say Allah Akbar, and proceed to kill your fellow man, you are taking the name of God in vain. If God is of peace, he will not condone such behavior)
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
( Muslims do have a Sabbath. The only beef here is that they have little respect for the Jewish or Christian Sabbath)
5. Honor your father and your mother.
(Muslims so far as I know do have family ties. I guess? They are a patriarchal society. However, I suspect they honor their father alot more than their mother, since they treat women as just another wife, rather than a single precious match, thanks to polygamy. To say nothing of the garbage that is hijab. Wear modest clothing, or you can expect to be raped, because Muslim men apparently have no self control)
6. You shall not murder.
(I can cite several passages where Muhammad advocates or condones violence to his followers. But, you say, the Bible is full of violence too. No. There are several passages where violence was done. It wasn't seen as a social good though. It was seen as turning against God)
7. You shall not commit adultery.
(Polygamy is adultery)
8. You shall not steal.
(This one's interesting)
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
(Islam actually endorses lying to "non-believers" if it advances their cause, even if it would put others in harm's way. This is called Taqiyya)
10. You shall not covet.
(This is done by way of blame. Islam always looks at other people, and blames their wealth or their success. For them, it is seen as a great evil that outsiders can have such things. Something about privilege. Actually, it's a result of their government allowing free access to work to those with ambition)

So you see, none of these laws are even followed. This way that this guy leads you in will not lead you to any paradise. It will lead you to fight and kill until there is nobody left on this Earth but you. And then, nobody left to blame, you will find some reason to blame each other.
This is not conjecture. It happens already in predominantly Muslim countries. This is why most Muslims immigrate to non-Muslim countries.

But here's the truth. The day is coming where this Earth will be no more. People are waking up to the fact that this world is actually a Platonic Cave. They will pass on to a higher existence.

Plato theorized the following.


You may ask, how is this relevant? The man known as Jesus. He wasn't just a prophet (he did a damn sight better than Muhammad at leading people toward God, though). He was a person who escaped. Most people in this reality, they live, they die, and they forget everything. There is something outside this cave we call "reality". He went outside the cave, and came back.

His followers didn't get it. They worshiped him as God. In a sense, this is true, but not in a way I could explain. Muslims and Jews really didn't get it. They decided this was part of another religion, and didn't get the meaning of what he did. Death no longer has power over him, because this man went and proved that the concept (death) is a lie, that we are always alive, only our bodies die. But if you persist in trying to kill others, the one who will be trapped in this lie... is you. This is why I don't advocate you become Christians. You are Muslims. But you can be Muslims and decide to reject these false idols. You can choose to see the truth of this world and become free. You can find your own path rather than the path of some truly dead person of long ago who was nothing he claimed to be, and be Muslims yet not Muslims this world knows. You must find the words of this book yourself, the words of the Qu'ran that was not written by human hands.

Or you can decide to reject what I say as heresy. After all, I'm not one of your people, why believe me? Up to you.

Given that you are still clinging to what you know from history books and Muslim concepts (these things are not relevant to me because I am not a Muslim, anymore than the historic account of Jesus is relevant to you; it is our key concepts the core of one's faith, not our dogma that is important), I think you have a way to go. You're still looking at my finger. But I have pointed at the moon for you, maybe some of you will find the way.

folkguitarist555, interesting that you should mention Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith is why I know Muhammad's story is false. If God had intended Muhammad as final messenger, why is Joseph Smith's story about the angel Moroni nearly identical? These were false prophets. Prophesy is done for one purpose. To attempt to bring people together in peace. Not to make a mockery of the word "peace" by trying to convert people into following what is obviously a fable under threat of death. Even the death threat is false. God controls life in this world, and would not put any one to death for speaking the truth. Even if their body is killed.

Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 07-11-2016 at 11:44 PM..
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Old 07-12-2016, 12:50 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 664,118 times
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[quote=bulmabriefs144;44726966]
Quote:
Let me tell you a story.

It's the Biblical story of Jonah.

Jonah was called to the city to preach to Ninevah, to turn them from their wickedness. He fled for the hills taking a boat to get away. He was swallowed by a large fish until he relented and agreed to go to Ninevah. The average person in Sunday school knows this. What they don't know is that the conversion of Ninevah was massively successful. And afterwards, Jonah sat and sulked. He KNEW they would repent. But he wanted them to be destroyed because despite it being his call, he LOATHED them. He sulked until God burned down a shade tree to prove a point.
Allow me, my friend
to say
The real city of Nineveh
And I'm Nineveh
History speaks of the big city
It is known as the Nineveh
Mnrakmh watching the hills overlooking the vast plain
So far, it will not be recognized boiling how to destroy the city in this way
History says that the destruction of the city was a collaboration with the Persians of Esther
But from watching the ruins of the city believe that the truth is something different
Make the rubble of a large city in the form of hills
Leave navigator
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Old 07-12-2016, 12:57 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 664,118 times
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When the British came to Nineveh
They had excavated
Come out and stones that city and knew her wall
But they could not solve the mystery of how it ended that great city
Mind you, the children of that city did not believe in Yunnan
Because they were pagans
Christ came to be
They became Christians
The Torah is very honest in this prophecy
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Old 07-12-2016, 06:26 AM
 
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(This is what is called a metaphor. Selkie, the fish girl cannot stomach plants of any sort. But her parents are told that tea is okay because it has been watered down to its core components)

Selkie 799 – Selkie

(Also to those from Ninevah. I don't think you're getting the point. The point is not the town. It's everything else I said)

What are Islam's core components? What do we have when we take away the violence that is jihad, the sexism that is the burqa (the idea is based on a passage in Christianity telling about modesty, and it is taken to an extreme), Muhammad and his writings? What is the watered down core of Islam.

  • Pre-Muhammad monotheistic animism.
  • Djinn
  • Kismet
  • Hamsa (the Hamsa, btw predates Muhammad. It's a symbol from ancient Babylon)
  • A culture of traders and poets
  • Stories like Arabian nights (if you'll notice none of them wear hijab in this book, they are influenced by pre-Muslim ideas even if it was written post-Islam)

This is palatable. I wear a hamsa myself. I wear it to remind me of what it really stands for, not the five Pillars of Islam (that's a retelling, it has nothing to do with Fatima). That the Hand of God is in all things. Protection. Strengthening the weak. Fertility. And marriage.

In Christianity, there is an idea that goes something like this. The church is the people of God. And the church will become married to Jesus in end times. Jesus calls himself a Bridegroom, and there is an emphasis on unity with the divine in love. I don't think I can explain this because I literally got four hours of sleep, but the the point is that rather than being isolated from God by placing God on a pedestal as some distant being incapable of affection, the earlier religion saw such such a being as having an active role in marriage. And this extends beyond that. I keep the hamsa, to remind me that I, as a member of the church, am pledged to be the bride of Christ. Yes, even though I am born a male. I am Christ's symbolic bride, as is the rest of humanity.

The Trinity is not three Gods. It is that there is One God which has three distinct roles. Christ is believed to be God's human face. God is the Creator. And the Holy Spirit is that part of God that resides in us, our spirit or life force. Each of us is connected by the Hand of God, this is what the hamsa truly means. That we are engaged to God, and protected by him. Somewhere along the way this symbol got watered down and the crescent moon became the dominant symbol. But the hamsa is the symbol common to Buddhists, Jews, and Muslims.

Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 07-12-2016 at 06:49 AM..
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Old 07-12-2016, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,973 posts, read 22,151,097 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144;44726966If
God had intended Muhammad as final messenger, why is Joseph Smith's story about the angel Moroni nearly identical?
That is the single most pathetically ignorant comparison I've ever seen on this forum. Joseph Smith's and Muhammad's stories have almost NOTHING in common. In both cases, there was an angel involved. Period. Nearly identical? Man, you are really grasping at straws.
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