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Old 06-19-2016, 02:42 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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The Quran says:
Quran (7:80-84) - "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)"

Quran (7:81) - "Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?"

Quran (26:165-166) - "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing"

Sahabas (the companions, disciples, scribes and family of the Islamic prophet Muhammad) agreed on severe punishments for sodomy. Some say that homosexuals should be burned and stoned, others say they should be thrown from height and then stoned, some said they should just be stoned. They agreed, punishment should be death.

Sharia teaches that homosexuality is a vile form of fornication, punishable by death.
The hadith (documentation by Islamic historians about the life of Muhammed, second in importance to Islam after the quran):
Abu Dawud (4462) - The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Lot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.".

Abu Dawud (4448) - "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death." (Note the implicit approval of sodomizing one's wife).

Bukhari (72:774) - "The Prophet cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, 'Turn them out of your houses .' The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman."

al-Tirmidhi, Sunan 1:152 - [Muhammad said] "Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver."


The subject of homosexuality at present is well researched and it is found that homosexuality is a very natural phenomenon within the animal kingdom and humanity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
Homosexual behavior in animals is sexual behavior among non-human species that is interpreted as homosexual or bisexual. This may include sexual activity, courtship, affection, pair bonding, and parenting among same-sex animal pairs.

Research indicates that various forms of this are found throughout the animal kingdom.[1][2]

As of 1999, about 500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, have been documented engaging in same-sex behaviors.[3][page needed][4]

According to the organizers of the 2006 Against Nature? exhibit, it has been observed in 1,500 species.[5]
As with human nature it is never a position of either black or white but with millions of shades of greys in between.
Therefore with human sexuality it is only natural that there must be shades of grey ranging from
100% heterosexuality to 0.001% heterosexuality.
The percentile from 0.001% heterosexuality to 5% heterosexuality is homosexuality.
Homosexuality within humans is therefore a natural inevitable occurrence.

I believe the Allah of Islam who is supposed to be All-knowing is actually ignorant of this fact, that is why Allah is not in favor of homosexuality, view homosexuals as deviants and punished homosexuals as with the people of Lot. As with verses in the Ahadith sodomy is punishable with death.

I think all the modern problems with homosexuality stemming from Islam is due the immutable claims of the Quran.
The hateful verses and evil punishments rained upon homosexuality from the words of God is embedded in the immutable Quran and such views are valid till eternity.
Because Allah's words cannot be compromised, all Muslims must abide and comply with Allah words and thus they have no choice [else go to Hell] but have to show contempt towards or hate homosexuals and their acts to show their piety to Allah.

Therefore as long as Islam exists homosexuals will be hated by SOME Muslims and all Muslims must be avoid being homosexuals in compliance with the Quran.

Views?
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Old 06-19-2016, 07:42 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
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The idea that allah is responsible for making homosexuals and then goes on to encourage hatred and slaughter of them is one more evidence for how sadistic allah (really Muhammed) was.

If we look at morality, homosexuals are just as capable of being moral as heterosexuals. Yet Islam judges them as evil on an issue that is not a moral issue - their sexuality. A homosexual can be productive, rational, honest, have integrity, peacefulness, etc. On the other hand, Islam promotes deception, violence, irrationality, slavery, etc.

Your point that " Allah of Islam who is supposed to be All-knowing is actually ignorant of this fact," should cause Muslims to stop and give some serious thought to this.

One odd thing is that there is plenty of homosexual action by Muslims. While Islam damns homosexuals, we have the dancing boys in Afghanistan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag5fl2S4juQ

Obviously there are muslim men and women are homosexuals. Some hide it, some are slaughtered and some leave Islam.

But because of the hatred in the quran and hadiths, the vast majority of the world's hetrosexual Muslims are homophobic.
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Old 06-20-2016, 06:11 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Quran says:
Quran (7:80-84) - "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)"

Quran (7:81) - "Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?"

Quran (26:165-166) - "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing"
Allah says through the Qur'an:

[7.80] And Lot when he said to his people: What! Do you commit an indecency which any one in the world has not done before you?

[7.81] Most surely you come to males in lust besides females; nay you are an extravagant people.

[7.82] And the answer of his people was no other than that they said: Turn them out of your town, surely they are a people who seek to purify.

[7.83] So We delivered him and his followers, except his wife; she was of those who remained behind.

[7.84] And We rained upon them a rain; consider then what was the end of the guilty.


The verse 7:80 shows that sodomy had not been done by anyone before Lot's people.

Quote:
Sahabas (the companions, disciples, scribes and family of the Islamic prophet Muhammad) agreed on severe punishments for sodomy. Some say that homosexuals should be burned and stoned, others say they should be thrown from height and then stoned, some said they should just be stoned. They agreed, punishment should be death.
It was not up to any Suhabas, scribes, any prophets or their families what kind of punishment should be meted for sodomy but only Allah. In the Qur'an, no person is required to punish such act in any way, never mind death.

Quote:
Sharia teaches that homosexuality is a vile form of fornication, punishable by death.
The hadith (documentation by Islamic historians about the life of Muhammed, second in importance to Islam after the quran):
The only Sharia (the Path) that is Straight Path is the Path shown by Allah. It is Allah's guidance that is the Straight Path that Muslims pray for every day. Anything else is not Sharia, the Straight Path, but deviation from the Straight Path. There is Islam perfected by Allah and there is Hislam as addition by men (thus my phrase Hislam) after Islam having been perfected.

Quote:
Abu Dawud (4462) - The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Lot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.".
This is what I call "Hislam", the creation of men. This hasn't come from Allah. The messenger of Allah could not make laws from himself but only deliver the message from Allah in which were the laws of Islam.

[5.99] Nothing is (incumbent) on the messenger but to deliver (the message), and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide.

[5.92] And obey Allah and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that only a clear deliverance of the message is
(incumbent) on Our messenger.

[29.18] And if you reject
(the truth), nations before you did indeed reject (the truth); and nothing is incumbent on the messenger but a plain delivering (of the message).


Quote:
Abu Dawud (4448) - "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death." (Note the implicit approval of sodomizing one's wife).
(Note an unbeliever's imagined approval of sodomizing his wife.) What about a married man seized committing sodomy with another man?

Quote:
Bukhari (72:774) - "The Prophet cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, 'Turn them out of your houses .' The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman."
Again no such law in the Qur'an. Nobody can make Islamic law other than Allah

Quote:
al-Tirmidhi, Sunan 1:152 - [Muhammad said] "Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver."
A made-up hadith!

Quote:
The subject of homosexuality at present is well researched and it is found that homosexuality is a very natural phenomenon within the animal kingdom and humanity.
There were no homosexual before Lot's people (according to Allah). It began during the time of Lot.

Quote:
As with human nature it is never a position of either black or white but with millions of shades of greys in between.
If you see it as a grey shade it doesn't mean it is actually grey shade. You might be in need of a visit to an optician.

Quote:
Therefore with human sexuality it is only natural that there must be shades of grey ranging from
100% heterosexuality to 0.001% heterosexuality.
There is no excuse for sodomy alongside heterosexuality. Sodomy with men in such cases is only on-the-side as a lustful act and perversion, the reason I will not get involved in such an act.

Quote:
The percentile from 0.001% heterosexuality to 5% heterosexuality is homosexuality.
Homosexuality within humans is therefore a natural inevitable occurrence.
Even in case of 3% heterosexuality, there is proof enough that the man is heterosexual and certainly not unable to be heterosexual.

Quote:
I believe the Allah of Islam who is supposed to be All-knowing is actually ignorant of this fact, that is why Allah is not in favor of homosexuality, view homosexuals as deviants and punished homosexuals as with the people of Lot. As with verses in the Ahadith sodomy is punishable with death.
Verses of hadith are neither verses nor from Allah of Islam.

Quote:
I think all the modern problems with homosexuality stemming from Islam is due the immutable claims of the Quran.
That is clearly singling out Islam and the Qur'an in ignorance and because of blind hate against the Qur'an when the same story of Lot's people is in the Genesis 18 and 19 as well.

Quote:
The hateful verses and evil punishments rained upon homosexuality from the words of God is embedded in the immutable Quran and such views are valid till eternity.
Hate against the Qur'an!

These verses are not in the Qur'an:

Genesis 19
Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed

1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.

2 “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.” “No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”

3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate.

4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house.

5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him

7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing.

8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”

9 “Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door.

11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

12 The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here,

13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”

14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, “Hurry and get out of this place, because the Lord is about to destroy the city!” But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished.”

16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the Lord was merciful to them.

17 As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, “Flee for your lives! Don’t look back, and don’t stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!”

18 But Lot said to them, “No, my lords, please!

19 Your[c] servant has found favor in your eyes, and you have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can’t flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I’ll die.

20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it—it is very small, isn’t it? Then my life will be spared.”

21 He said to him, “Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of.

22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it.”

23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land.

24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens.

25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land.


Allah of the Qur'an has only confirmed the sodomy story in Genesis 19 from Allah of of Abraham, Moses and the Torah. Yet the hate being spewed here is only against the Qur'an and Muhammad with no mention of the Torah and Moses.

Quote:
Because Allah's words cannot be compromised, all Muslims must abide and comply with Allah words and thus they have no choice [else go to Hell] but have to show contempt towards or hate homosexuals and their acts to show their piety to Allah.
Sheer hate of Muslims!

The narrative in the Qur'an is for guidance only for individual Muslims not to commit sodomy. It does not tell Muslims to punish those who sodomize with death. The Lot's story, that is in the Torah as well, is warning rather than command to people to kill sodomizing people.

Quote:
Therefore as long as Islam exists homosexuals will be hated by SOME Muslims and all Muslims must be avoid being homosexuals in compliance with the Quran.
All Muslim must comply with the guidance of the Qur'an. This is why ALL Muslims avoid becoming homosexual. If only SOME Muslim hate homosexual, then Muslims are not commanded in the Qur'an to hate homosexuals. They command themselves to hate homosexual.

One other point to note is that Allah will not do the same to any people (as He did with Lot's people) in a city where even ten people are heterosexual and righteous people (read Genesis 18).
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Old 06-20-2016, 06:14 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
The idea that allah is responsible for making homosexuals and then goes on to encourage hatred and slaughter of them is one more evidence for how sadistic allah (really Muhammed) was.
Hate against Muhammad!

Muhammad did not write Genesis 19.
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Old 06-20-2016, 08:30 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Hate against Muhammad!

Muhammad did not write Genesis 19.
You bet I hate Muhammed. He was one of the most evil men to walk the face of this earth. Maybe the most evil. How many have been slaughtered in his name??? Millions and millions. How many have been raped in his name? I shudder to think. How many little children have been sexually abused in his name? Countless. How many millions were enslaved in his name? How many millions tortured in his name? How many Muslims slaughtered by Muslims? Millions.

I hate this evil. You think accusing me of hating evil will shame me?

Ramadan Death Toll so far

Date Country City Killed Injured Description
2016.06.20 Afghanistan Badakhshan 8 18 Muslims plant a motorcycle bomb at a crowded market that claims eight lives.
2016.06.20 Afghanistan Kabul 14 5 Fourteen bus passengers are incinerated by a Shahid suicide bomber.
2016.06.18 Syria Aleppo 7 0 Seven members of a Kurdish family are killed by Muslims in a targeted bombing of their vehicle.
2016.06.17 Syria Manbij 6 0 Two children are among six members of one family exterminated by firing squad for trying to flee the caliphate.
2016.06.17 Nigeria Kuda 24 0 Twenty-four women are summarily shot dead at a funeral by Muslims.
2016.06.16 Iraq Fallujah 1 1 A Muslim sniper picks off a 2-year-old boy in his mother's arms.
2016.06.16 Libya Abu Grein 10 7 A Muslim suicide bomb blast claims the lives of ten others.
2016.06.16 Iraq Sinsil 4 0 Four people are stoned to death by Muslims for adultery.
2016.06.14 CAR Ngaoundaye 10 0 At least ten villagers are slaughtered by Muslim militia.
2016.06.14 Belgium Etterbeek 0 1 A transgender is stabbed by Muslims.
2016.06.14 Nigeria Kautuva 4 3 Muslims burn down houses, murder four villagers and kidnap three women.
2016.06.14 Iraq Baghdad 2 9 A Mujahid bomb blast at a market produces two corpses.
2016.06.14 India Kupwara 1 5 A group of Muslim terrorists attack a police patrol, killing one officer.
2016.06.13 Pakistan Ghor 1 0 A Sharia court executes a woman on a charge of trying to escape her home.
2016.06.13 Pakistan Ghor 1 0 A Muslim woman is shot dead by her family for attempting to leaver her husband.
2016.06.13 India Kud 1 6 Muslim militants open fire from a bus, killing a woman and injuring a child.
2016.06.13 Iraq Ramadi 5 11 Five Iraqis are taken out by Muslim suicide bombers.
2016.06.13 Libya Sirte 2 3 Two people are killed when a Muslim suicide bomber detonates outside a government building.
2016.06.13 France Magnanville 2 1 A Muslim terrorist stabs a couple to death while shouting praises to Allah.
2016.06.13 Iraq Fallujah 49 0 Shiite Muslims are accused of executing at least forty-nine civilians displaced by the violence.
2016.06.12 Syria Sanilurfa 0 1 Muslim gunmen shoot a journalist three times.
2016.06.12 Libya Sirte 1 0 A Fedayeen suicide bomber claims one other life.
2016.06.12 Iraq Fallujah 27 17 Two Muslim suicide attacks produce over two dozen dead Iraqis.
2016.06.12 Cameroon Darak 42 0 The bodies of forty-two fishermen are found a few days after they were captured by Muslims.
2016.06.12 Afghanistan Ghor 1 0 The Taliban cut out the eyes of a day laborer and skin him alive.
2016.06.12 Syria Raqqa 1 0 A caliphate member executes his own brother for apostasy.
2016.06.12 Libya Sirte 3 7 A Muslim suicide bomber detonates at a hospital, taking three others with him.
2016.06.12 Philippines Samal Island 1 0 A Canadian hostage is beheaded by Abu Sayyaf.
2016.06.12 USA Orlando, FL 49 53 A Muslim massacres forty-nine people at a gay nightclub.
2016.06.12 Iraq Razalani 2 0 An ISIS member slaughters his own parents for refusing to hand over his brothers to the caliphate.
2016.06.11 Afghanistan Haska Mena 6 11 At least six are left dead after Muslim members fire into a police station.
2016.06.11 Afghanistan Rodat 4 70 Muslims plant a bomb in a rival mosque that eliminates four worshippers.
2016.06.11 Syria Manbij 1 3 Muslims invade a home, kill the man and rape his wife and two daughters.
2016.06.11 Iraq Tarmiya 7 0 Three children and two women are among seven family members massacred in their home by Muslims.
2016.06.11 Iraq Yathrib 10 0 A grave is discovered containing ten ISIS victims.
2016.06.11 Iraq Sichr 17 0 Seventeen people are allegedly massacred by Muslims.
2016.06.11 Syria Sayyida Zeinab 20 30 A double suicide bombing outside a Shiite mosque leaves at least twenty dead.
2016.06.11 Libya Benghazi 7 8 Seven civilians lose their lives when Muslims shell their neighborhood.
2016.06.10 Iraq Baghdad 3 11 A Muslim suicide bomber takes out three other souls.
2016.06.10 Iraq Fallujah 30 0 Muslims spray machine-gun fire into a crowd of women and children trying to flee the caliphate, killing at least thirty.
2016.06.10 Bangladesh Dhaka 1 0 A 62-year-old Hindu monastery worker is hacked to death by Muslims.
2016.06.10 Egypt Rafah 1 0 A young police recruit is cut down in the prime of life by Muslims.
2016.06.10 Pakistan Lahore 3 1 A young couple are honor killed by Muslims for marrying against their family's wishes along with a friend who helped them.
2016.06.10 Syria al-Zahraa 1 6 A civilian is killed when Muslim terrorists send a rocket into a home.
2016.06.10 Syria Aleppo 3 15 A young girl is among three civilians aerated by Muslim shrapnel.
2016.06.10 Syria Ghandoura 37 0 Muslims massacre at least thirty-seven villagers, including women and children.
2016.06.10 Nigeria Mairari 4 0 Muslims drag four women out of their homes and slit their throats.
2016.06.10 Somalia Bula Fulay 4 0 A Muslim group beheads one man and shoot three others.
2016.06.10 Syria Bukamal 1 0 One person is crucified by Muslims for eating during Ramadan.
2016.06.09 Pakistan Changa Manga 0 1 A Christian man is badly beaten by a Muslim mob for selling food deemed 'unclean' because of his religion.
2016.06.09 Syria Handarat 1 8 A Sunni rocket claims the life of a child.
2016.06.09 Iraq Mosul 1 0 A woman is stoned to death by Muslims in front of a mosque for adultery.
2016.06.09 Iraq Kirkuk 1 5 A mother is killed by an IS IED while leading her family out of the caliphate.
2016.06.09 Iraq Wilayat Salahuddin 1 0 A man is beheaded for sorcery by Muslims.
2016.06.09 Iraq Baghdad 19 46 A Muslim suicide bomber targets a commercial district in a Shiite area, killing nineteen.
2016.06.09 Iraq Taji 12 32 A dozen Iraqis are sent to Allah by a Muslim suicide bomber.
2016.06.09 Somalia Halgan 43 0 Dozens of AU peacekeepers are massacred during a Muslim suicide assault.
2016.06.09 Syria Meydan 5 50 At least five are killed when Muslims deliberately shell a civilian area.
2016.06.08 Iraq Hanbas 3 3 An ISIS bomb blast lays out three Shiites.
2016.06.08 Pakistan Lahore 1 0 A 17-year-old girl is burnt alive by her Muslim mother for eloping without permission.
2016.06.08 Israel Tel Aviv 4 13 Muslims disguised as Orthodox Jews fire into a food and retail market, killing four patrons as they praise Allah.
2016.06.08 Libya Abu Grein 25 32 Over two dozen defenders are killed during a Muslim assault on a small town.
2016.06.08 Libya Buairat el-Hassun 7 18 A Muslim car bomb claims seven lives.
2016.06.08 Syria Manbij 19 0 Nineteen civilians are killed by Muslims.
2016.06.07 Iraq Haditha 2 0 Two female factory workers are disassembled by a Muslim suicide bomber.
2016.06.07 Bangladesh Jhenaidah 1 0 A 69-year-old Hindu priest is hacked to death by Muslims.
2016.06.07 Iraq Karbala 7 20 A Muslim suicide bomber produces seven dead Muslims at a commercial area.
2016.06.07 Afghanistan Sokhti 11 12 Eleven local security personnel are killed during a Muslim attack.
2016.06.07 Afghanistan Ghazni 12 50 Muslims stop vehicles along a highway and massacre a dozen occupants.
2016.06.07 Iraq Khazar 5 0 Five displaced persons are further removed by Muslim bombers.
2016.06.06 Iraq Mosul 65 0 Sixty-five civilians, including university students, are rounded up and executed by caliphate staff.
2016.06.06 Jordan Amman 5 0 At least five employees are killed in their office by Muslims.
2016.06.06 Iraq Baghdad 2 11 Jihadis bomb a local market, killing two patrons.
2016.06.06 Nigeria Adamawa 4 0 Four farmers are murdered by Muslims.
2016.06.06 Egypt Sadwet 1 0 A young policeman is shot to death in the name of Allah.
2016.06.06 Thailand Narathiwat 3 2 Two villagers are shot point blank by Muslim terrorists.
2016.06.06 Iraq Mosul 11 0 Eleven people are executed by Muslims in front of their families for trying to flee the caliphate.
2016.06.06 Cameroon Darak 10 0 Ten fishermen are cut down by Muslims.
2016.06.06 Afghanistan Sari Pul 7 0 A child is among seven gunned down by Muslims.
2016.06.06 Yemen Khormaksar 1 0 A civilian is killed when Muslims fire on an airport.
2016.06.06 Iraq Fallujah 4 0 Four civilians are tortured to death by Muslims.
2016.06.06 Yemen Taiz 8 13 Muslims kill eight family members, including three children.

And counting.......
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Old 06-20-2016, 08:55 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
You bet I hate Muhammed.
That is a clear proof that you are a hateful person.

The thread is about Islam's view of homosexuality. The story of Lot's people is in both the Torah (Genesis 18 and 19) and the Qur'an. It wasn't Muhammad who wrote the Genesis story nor of destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Yet you have brought Muhammad into it and are blaming all the slaughter and destruction on him. All this cut and paste of the same again and again regardless of the topic of the thread is due to your mind full of hate against Muslims, Muhammad, the Qur'an and Allah. You can't discuss any topic without spewing hate.

Judging by your incessant hate, I can't discount the possibility that it wasn't your employee who was married to a charming Muslim man but you and, as a result of your own lack of ability to judge a man's character, now you are left fuming for the rest of your life.
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Old 06-20-2016, 09:40 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That is a clear proof that you are a hateful person.

The thread is about Islam's view of homosexuality. The story of Lot's people is in both the Torah (Genesis 18 and 19) and the Qur'an. It wasn't Muhammad who wrote the Genesis story nor of destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Yet you have brought Muhammad into it and are blaming all the slaughter and destruction on him. All this cut and paste of the same again and again regardless of the topic of the thread is due to your mind full of hate against Muslims, Muhammad, the Qur'an and Allah. You can't discuss any topic without spewing hate.

Judging by your incessant hate, I can't discount the possibility that it wasn't your employee who was married to a charming Muslim man but you and, as a result of your own lack of ability to judge a man's character, now you are left fuming for the rest of your life.
Hating evil does not make one hateful. It makes one good. Should I love evil like you do? Should I love men having sex with children like you do? Should I love terrorism and slavery and mass rape like you do? You are a lover of these things, right? You certainly don't hate them! That would make you a hater!

This is very common with Muslims....calling people who stand against evil 'haters'. But they don't like to say what we hate and what they love.

It indeed was Muhammed who wrote hateful things about homosexuals in the Quran. We've posted the verses of hate from the quran. Now you post the verses in the Quran that show love and kindness and tolerance towards homosexuals. LOL
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Old 06-20-2016, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Allah says through the Qur'an:

[b][7.80] And Lot when he said to his people: What! Do you commit an indecency which any one in the world has not done before you?

The verse 7:80 shows that sodomy had not been done by anyone before Lot's people.
That is according to what Allah in the Quran claimed. But can we trust the Quran which is based on a false first fundamental premise.
The Quran in not in line with reality where it matters, especially when the very fundamental premise is based on a falsehood and an illusion, i.e. it is impossible for God to exists as real. God is only assumed to exists for soteriological purpose, i.e. salvation to ease the terrible existential torment within the majority of humans.

The following is reality where;
1. Homosexuality in various forms within the animal kingdom exists in 1,500 species and we can infer this must have been going on long and million of years before humans existed.

2. By the Principles of Normal Distribution that is inherent in human nature and almost everything, it is a certainty in terms of human sexuality, a percentile [%] of humans are homosexual of various degrees.
Can you prove this two points wrong? [A]
Quote:
It was not up to any Suhabas, scribes, any prophets or their families what kind of punishment should be meted for sodomy but only Allah. In the Qur'an, no person is required to punish such act in any way, never mind death.
No one said they are enforcing it. It was only stated the Sahabas agreed but such an agreement will have an impact in influencing Muslims attitude.

Quote:
The only Sharia (the Path) that is Straight Path is the Path shown by Allah. It is Allah's guidance that is the Straight Path that Muslims pray for every day. Anything else is not Sharia, the Straight Path, but deviation from the Straight Path. There is Islam perfected by Allah and there is Hislam as addition by men (thus my phrase Hislam) after Islam having been perfected.

This is what I call "Hislam", the creation of men. This hasn't come from Allah. The messenger of Allah could not make laws from himself but only deliver the message from Allah in which were the laws of Islam.

[5.99] Nothing is (incumbent) on the messenger but to deliver (the message), and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide.

[5.92] And obey Allah and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that only a clear deliverance of the message is
(incumbent) on Our messenger.

[29.18] And if you reject
(the truth), nations before you did indeed reject (the truth); and nothing is incumbent on the messenger but a plain delivering (of the message).


(Note an unbeliever's imagined approval of sodomizing his wife.) What about a married man seized committing sodomy with another man?

Again no such law in the Qur'an. Nobody can make Islamic law other than Allah

A made-up hadith!
I understand you are Quran-Only, thus this point re Ahadith is not applicable to you.
Where the Ahadith are referenced it is applicable to only those Muslims who abide by them as deemed to carry divine authority based on whatever their basis is.

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There were no homosexual before Lot's people (according to Allah). It began during the time of Lot.
Note point [A] above.

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If you see it as a grey shade it doesn't mean it is actually grey shade. You might be in need of a visit to an optician.
You are talking nonsense here. It is mean to be an analogy to explain that most things comes in degrees in various context. If you don't like grey, then shades of other colors can be used or anything where "degrees" are applicable.

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There is no excuse for sodomy alongside heterosexuality. Sodomy with men in such cases is only on-the-side as a lustful act and perversion, the reason I will not get involved in such an act.
That is yours and my personal choices but WHO ARE YOU to judge the morality of others. Personally I will not condone homosexuality but I understand human nature to accept it as just as I understand and respect theists who MUST believe in an irrational God.

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Even in case of 3% heterosexuality, there is proof enough that the man is heterosexual and certainly not unable to be heterosexual.
Yes, I agree. 3% whiteness within 97% blackness will appear and exists as non-white. Therefore a 3% heterosexusla is 97% bisexual & homosexual.

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Verses of hadith are neither verses nor from Allah of Islam.
The verses in the Ahadith are moot [not appliable] for you.
As for the verses relating to sodomy in the Quran, they should not be there in the first place at all to be a potential to influence SOME [not all] who are born with evil tendencies.

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That is clearly singling out Islam and the Qur'an in ignorance and because of blind hate against the Qur'an when the same story of Lot's people is in the Genesis 18 and 19 as well.

Hate against the Qur'an!

These verses are not in the Qur'an:

Genesis 19
Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed
<snip>.


Allah of the Qur'an has only confirmed the sodomy story in Genesis 19 from Allah of Abraham, Moses and the Torah. Yet the hate being spewed here is only against the Qur'an and Muhammad with no mention of the Torah and Moses.
I agree sodomy is not approved in the Old Testament. There are Jews who had killed homosexuals when influenced by those verses in the OT. I condemned such acts.
But that is off topic in this "ISLAM" forum!!

The fact is when the Quran copied [plagiarized] from the OT in this case, Allah of the Quran must take responsibility and not try to shift blame to the OT. This is immoral and bad critical thinking [a form of tu quoque fallacy].

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Sheer hate of Muslims!
Shows you are running out of "bullets" thus resorting to the cowboy uncouth sort of accusations.

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The narrative in the Qur'an is for guidance only for individual Muslims not to commit sodomy. It does not tell Muslims to punish those who sodomize with death. The Lot's story, that is in the Torah as well, is warning rather than command to people to kill sodomizing people.
Perhaps that is your personal thinking.
But for the pool 300 million of Muslims [i.e. 20% of evil prone], it is a different perception and understanding for them.
The Quran did not command Muslims to kill homosexuals explicitly but there is an indirect sanction, exhortations and permission for Muslims to fight and kill homosexuals.
Allah give permission for Muslims to fight and kill any one who is a threat to Islam and Muslims, and where there is corruption and mischiefs.
Homosexuality is deemed as a threat to Islam if such acts are not stopped which may influence more and more Muslims to accept homosexuality.
Homosexuality is a threat to Islam and that is why Allah brought in the example of what happened to the example of Lot.

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All Muslim must comply with the guidance of the Qur'an. This is why ALL Muslims avoid becoming homosexual. If only SOME Muslim hate homosexual, then Muslims are not commanded in the Qur'an to hate homosexuals. They command themselves to hate homosexual.
Whether there are holy commands or not, there will always be people who are against homosexuality. Long ago I was against homosexuality but no more after I have I understood the facts and reality behind it. I don't think any high degree homosexuals like to be a homosexual nor born a homosexual but they have no choice but to accept what they are born with.

By the inherent Principles of the Normal Distribution, there WILL ALWAYS be a certain percentile of homosexuals within the human population. There is no way to avoid it. Therefore there will always be a percentile of Muslims who are homosexuals, especially those born to Muslim parents.

Yes, all Muslims must comply with the Quran where there are indirect commands to hate and SOME zealous pious [DUCK-RABBIT] will go therefrom to kill homosexuals. The proof of this is already SO evident.
If Allah is all knowing, Allah would not have included such hateful elements towards homosexuals in the Quran.
Because Allah is supposed to be compassionate, such hateful elements in the Quran point to the inference that the Quran was authored by human[s] and not a God.

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One other point to note is that Allah will not do the same to any people (as He did with Lot's people) in a city where even ten people are heterosexual and righteous people (read Genesis 18).
Note there are many verses of threats exhorting Muslims and others to 'Travel around the land and observed what Allah had done to non-believers and wrong-doers in the past'. To be effective it imply Allah will do the same to any one on Earth.
But the threats are merely empty ones because there is no God to carry out the threats. Why? because the Quran was authored by human[s].
The reality is this human[s] authored verses did in fact influence SOME Muslims who are born with evil tendencies to kill homosexuals [evidence is so clear].
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Old 06-21-2016, 05:29 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is according to what Allah in the Quran claimed. But can we trust the Quran which is based on a false first fundamental premise.
It's your choice to trust the Qur'an and OT or not. Nobody is forcing you to trust the Qur'an or OT.

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The Quran in not in line with reality where it matters, especially when the very fundamental premise is based on a falsehood and an illusion, i.e. it is impossible for God to exists as real. God is only assumed to exists for soteriological purpose, i.e. salvation to ease the terrible existential torment within the majority of humans.
The existence or non-existence of God is not the topic of this thread. Believers believe in existence of God and unbelievers reject it. But when an unbelievers claims that Muhammad wrote the Qur'an and the story of Lot's people then that is obviously false because the story is in the OT as well. Both versions of the same story is from only one source, God.

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The following is reality where;
1. Homosexuality in various forms within the animal kingdom exists in 1,500 species and we can infer this must have been going on long and million of years before humans existed.
Are you equating humans to monkeys and apes?

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2. By the Principles of Normal Distribution that is inherent in human nature and almost everything, it is a certainty in terms of human sexuality, a percentile [%] of humans are homosexual of various degrees.
Can you prove this two points wrong? [A]
You may think that the Normal Distribution is natural but it is well known now that it is not the case at least in biology. Perhaps you ARE linking biology of certain humans to the time some of them became monkeys and apes. In their case, Normal Distribution will apply even biologically.

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No one said they are enforcing it. It was only stated the Sahabas agreed but such an agreement will have an impact in influencing Muslims attitude.
Muslims attitude has nothing to do with what Sahabas said but what Allah said and how Allah guided through the Qur'an. To me, guidance of Allah through the Qur'an is not to sodomize. And I agree; it is not natural for me. If others want to act ike monkeys and apes, fine. I have nothing to do with it.

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I understand you are Quran-Only, thus this point re Ahadith is not applicable to you.
Where the Ahadith are referenced it is applicable to only those Muslims who abide by them as deemed to carry divine authority based on whatever their basis is.
Ahadith carry no divine authority. The only Hadith that carries divine authority is Hadith of Allah (the Qur'an).

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That is yours and my personal choices but WHO ARE YOU to judge the morality of others.
Many unbelievers do so every day in these forums.

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Personally I will not condone homosexuality but I understand human nature to accept it as just as I understand and respect theists who MUST believe in an irrational God.
I too do not condone homosexuality but I would not go out there with a gun to shoot people for their sexuality. The Qur'an hasn't guided me to do so.

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Yes, I agree. 3% whiteness within 97% blackness will appear and exists as non-white. Therefore a 3% heterosexusla is 97% bisexual & homosexual.
It means he is perfectly heterosexual if he can have normal sex with a woman even if it is for 3 days out of 100 days.

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The verses in the Ahadith are moot [not appliable] for you.
As for the verses relating to sodomy in the Quran, they should not be there in the first place at all to be a potential to influence SOME [not all] who are born with evil tendencies.
All are born with potential to do both good and evil. The verses in the Qur'an and the OT are quite rightly there for us to remain heterosexual. There is no problem for any heterosexual person to get involved in a homosexual act through curiosity or being at the wrong place. This is how most become homosexuals when they meet other homosexuals. That does not mean that all humans are bisexual and homosexual. All have potential to be homosexual just as all have potential to do evil. The Qur'an warns us not to do evil acts and not to do homosexual acts. I see and understand the Qur'an in that light. It is my personal guide.

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I agree sodomy is not approved in the Old Testament. There are Jews who had killed homosexuals when influenced by those verses in the OT. I condemned such acts.
But that is off topic in this "ISLAM" forum!!
The parallel is there and for a reason.

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The fact is when the Quran copied [plagiarized] from the OT in this case, Allah of the Quran must take responsibility and not try to shift blame to the OT. This is immoral and bad critical thinking [a form of tu quoque fallacy].
The point to note here is that neither Muhammad nor a group of Muslims had come up with the story of people of Lot for the first time. When it is established that Muhammad did not come up with this story from himself, it is "plagiarized". Where did it come from in OT?

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Shows you are running out of "bullets" thus resorting to the cowboy uncouth sort of accusations.
Glad to read that I have been shooting the real "bullets" all along.

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Perhaps that is your personal thinking.
But for the pool 300 million of Muslims [i.e. 20% of evil prone], it is a different perception and understanding for them.
It's not my personal "thinking" but informed understanding. Both evil and good can't be right at the same time.

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The Quran did not command Muslims to kill homosexuals explicitly but there is an indirect sanction, exhortations and permission for Muslims to fight and kill homosexuals.
There is no sanction at all in the Qur'an for Muslims to kill and fight homosexuals. Your statement here is entirely the result of your mere imagination.

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Allah give permission for Muslims to fight and kill any one who is a threat to Islam and Muslims, and where there is corruption and mischiefs.
Homosexuality is deemed as a threat to Islam if such acts are not stopped which may influence more and more Muslims to accept homosexuality.
Homosexuality is a threat to Islam and that is why Allah brought in the example of what happened to the example of Lot.
You have made a long statement to explain your imagination of "indirect sanction" but right at the end you mentioned what Allah did rather than Lot did to homosexuals. The lesson learnt from the Qur'an is the same; Allah doing something rather than any man doing something to the homosexuals. Homosexuality is depicted in the OT and the Qur'an as neither corruption nor mischief but an unnatural act. The destruction came to Lot's people because over 90% had turned to homosexuality and had lost interest in women.
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Old 06-21-2016, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It's your choice to trust the Qur'an and OT or not. Nobody is forcing you to trust the Qur'an or OT.
Whatever that is to be credible from the Quran it must be verifiable objectively. Since the Quran cannot be verified objectively at the fundamental level, there is no basis for me to accept the Quran is reliable at all.
I understand Muslims MUST accept [psychologically not objectively] the Quran as the TRUTH even if it is otherwise in reality.

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The existence or non-existence of God is not the topic of this thread. Believers believe in existence of God and unbelievers reject it. But when an unbelievers claims that Muhammad wrote the Qur'an and the story of Lot's people then that is obviously false because the story is in the OT as well. Both versions of the same story is from only one source, God.
The majority of humans has an innate instinct to be wary (I once was) of homosexuals especially when the believers are ignorant of human nature and reality. This is natural because if everyone is a homosexual or are inclined towards homosexuality, then the human species will be extinct in no time.

Such an instinct is naturally reflected in the story of LOT and Muhammad or a group of humans merely plagiarized the story.

You stated both stories came from one source, i.e. God but where is the proof for God to support your claim/statement. This is why the question of the existence of God is critical to substantiate the first fundamental premise. note GIGO.

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Are you equating humans to monkeys and apes?
I believe humans has a common ancestor [not from apes] with apes at some point in time.
The fact that homosexuality exists prevalently in the animal kingdom support the fact that homosexuality should exists in humans as well as they all share the same evolutionary traits.

Quote:
You may think that the Normal Distribution is natural but it is well known now that it is not the case at least in biology. Perhaps you ARE linking biology of certain humans to the time some of them became monkeys and apes. In their case, Normal Distribution will apply even biologically.
Normal Distribution is merely an abstracted principle for ease and application which is not necessary perfect in every case.
The point is one can invoke the principle and test it with rational justifications.
You are ignorant, the normal distribution definitely exists in human biology.
Take the human heights, length of male penises, and any human biological features where there is a range of values distributed in accordance to the Normal Distribution within the total or a LARGE population sample.

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Muslims attitude has nothing to do with what Sahabas said but what Allah said and how Allah guided through the Qur'an. To me, guidance of Allah through the Qur'an is not to sodomize. And I agree; it is not natural for me. If others want to act like monkeys and apes, fine. I have nothing to do with it.
Don't be selfish. The discussion of this topic is not restricted to you personally but its impact on the 1.5 billion Muslims and its consequences which is of concern to humanity.
The Sunni Muslims which has the largest Muslim numbers are heavily influenced by the thoughts of the Sahabas.

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Many unbelievers do so every day in these forums.
The point is with reference to beliefs via the Quran by believers. Unbelievers give their views but they are not Muslims and do not accept the Quran.

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I too do not condone homosexuality but I would not go out there with a gun to shoot people for their sexuality. The Qur'an hasn't guided me to do so.
You do not condone but you are ignorant of how human nature enable homosexuality to manifest naturally in accordance to natural circumstances.

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It means he is perfectly heterosexual if he can have normal sex with a woman even if it is for 3 days out of 100 days.
You are are having a problem with understanding the concept of 'degrees' here. We have gone through this before with "yellowness" etc. With such thinking, your brain is probably damaged where this is concern. Suggest you research and reflect deeply on this concept.

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All are born with potential to do both good and evil. The verses in the Qur'an and the OT are quite rightly there for us to remain heterosexual. There is no problem for any heterosexual person to get involved in a homosexual act through curiosity or being at the wrong place. This is how most become homosexuals when they meet other homosexuals. That does not mean that all humans are bisexual and homosexual. All have potential to be homosexual just as all have potential to do evil. The Qur'an warns us not to do evil acts and not to do homosexual acts. I see and understand the Qur'an in that light. It is my personal guide.
The above is due to your ignorance of human nature, brain anatomy and how the brain works.

We are dealing with two perspectives of homosexuality here.
1. One are the homosexual acts by anyone.
2. The other relate to those who are born with very strong [high degree] of homosexual impulses.

While 1 is a concern in the Bible and Quran, what is most critical is 2, i.e. those born with homosexual impulses of various degree from low to high.

Btw, do you know what is the anatomical features of the brain inside your skull.
I suggest you educate yourself to understand your own brain and its features.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain
Don't be a coward, go and learn the truth about your own self!

Why there are Homosexuals Naturally?
The average human brain has appx. 100 billion neurons where each neuron has up to 10,000 synapses or connectors. Try to compute or imagine the number of possible permutations and combinations between these neurons and their connectors. The neurons and synapses are very fine [thinner than your hair, some width are 1/1000 of human hair]. Because they are so compact within a small space, there are very high possibility of cross-wirings or wrong wirings.

The default is all humans are supposed to be heterosexuals to ensure procreation, the production of the next generations and preserve the human species.

But with nature, things do not always go perfectly as expected and variations happens, especially so when the brain involve very fine organic mechanisms.

Normally when the productive male sexual system interacts with [triggered by] the relevant female features, the neurons and synapses will be activated, and the male will get an erection with an impulse of copulate.

Because nature is never perfect, in the case of a homosexual, the connectivity of the sexual systems is such that the neurons are connected in a deviated way that the sexual reaction is triggered by features of the same sex instead of the opposite sex as in heterosexual.
This is due to cross wirings or wrong wirings of the neurons and synapses from what is expected.

The fact here is cross-wirings or wrong wirings of the neurons happens in many other mental faculties due to many factors.
I mentioned synesthesia once where one can taste sweetness when hearing certain sounds. This is because the neurons of the taste cross-wired or were wrongly connected to hearing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

Thus due to many factors [nature and nurture] and the vulnerability of the neurons connectivity, there will definitely be a percentile of humans who will have their sexual neurons and synapses connected abnormally which end up their sexual reactions are triggered by features of the same sex.
There is nothing humanity can do at present to right this wrong connections especially with those connections that are strong.

Do you agree with the above? Btw this is serious knowledge of the human brain and how it works there is the same with your brain.

Because it is not the deliberate fault of those born with homosexual neural connections, humanity has no choice but to extend empathy and compassion to those is such unfortunate situations. This is the same with those transgender cases and those Muslims [20%] who are unfortunately born with evil tendencies.

The problem here is the Quran is ignorant of the above human nature and invent its own story of God, blah, blah, blah which create the catalyst to trigger and influence SOME Muslims who are unfortunately born with evil tendencies to commit terrible evils and violence.

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The parallel is there and for a reason.

The point to note here is that neither Muhammad nor a group of Muslims had come up with the story of people of Lot for the first time. When it is established that Muhammad did not come up with this story from himself, it is "plagiarized". Where did it come from in OT?
As I said, it is very natural and instinctual for humans to have contempt for homosexuality. However such matters should not be raised in an immutable holy texts. If need be it should be qualified as time based and not for eternity.

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It's not my personal "thinking" but informed understanding. Both evil and good can't be right at the same time.
Note the OP I raised on the DUCK-RABBIT two truth scenario where any one option can be the truth. The problem is the Quran is not clear and it end up DUCK-RABBIT two truth scenarios where SOME Muslims who are unfortunately born with evil tendencies deem it their duty commit terrible evils and violence to please Allah so they can go the Paradise expeditiously.
This is facilitated by the fact there is no central authority and no one can judge them except Allah who can never appear to humans to establish what is right or wrong.


Quote:
There is no sanction at all in the Qur'an for Muslims to kill and fight homosexuals. Your statement here is entirely the result of your mere imagination.

You have made a long statement to explain your imagination of "indirect sanction" but right at the end you mentioned what Allah did rather than Lot did to homosexuals. The lesson learnt from the Qur'an is the same; Allah doing something rather than any man doing something to the homosexuals. Homosexuality is depicted in the OT and the Qur'an as neither corruption nor mischief but an unnatural act. The destruction came to Lot's people because over 90% had turned to homosexuality and had lost interest in women.
Regardless of your opinions the fact is the verses related to homosexuality in the Quran are easily related to the evil verses [Islam wronged, threatened, fight, kill] in the Quran.
The fact is SOME evil prone Muslims take it upon their duty to please god to kill homosexuals based on the related verses.
The fact is no humans on Earth can judge what the Quran state [in a two truths scenario] who is right or wrong.
Therefore as long as the Quran exists and is believed by people, there will be SOME [a %] believers who will commit terrible evils and violence on Earth. This I am 100% certain, it is just a matter of the next news of homosexuals killed by SOME Muslims somewhere in the world.

Last edited by Continuum; 06-21-2016 at 10:21 PM..
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