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Old 06-22-2016, 09:57 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289

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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
OK, so everything I said stands. In Islam, if 2 gay men have a sexual relationship they are evil. Even if they want to be married, they cannot be married, so any sex between same sex couples is evil and punishable.
In the Qur'an, it is punishable only by Allah. There is no punishment by other human beings ordained in the Qur'an.

Quote:
To act in accord with your nature is evil when it harms no one else? Hogwash!
It will harm, in short term, others around them and, in long term, the whole human race. As long as I don't have to pay in any way for their actions, it's fine with me if they want to be the last generation in that line.

Quote:
Between two CONSENTING adults....mind your own business. And no, the issue is not just sex outside marriage. After reading the quran and hadiths and shariah only a fool would swallow that.
Islam is from Allah only and is in the Qur'an only. It was perfected with 5:3. Anything else from men after that is not Islam but Hislam never approved by Allah. The only lawful sex is, according to the Qur'an, through the marriage between man and woman.

Quote:
Look, the quran and hadiths and shariah all incite hatred of homosexuals. It's there for all to see. That is the cause. The effect is Orlando and other slaughter and torture of homosexuals by Muslims. Cause and effect.
Load of nonsense and hate against the Muslims and the Qur'an!

The Qur'an does not incite hatred of homosexuals nor are Muslims commanded in the Qur'an to slaughter and torture homosexuals. It can lead to the end of the human race eventually just as it did lead to the end of humans in Sodom and Gomorrah.


Quote:
Homosexuality is not a moral issue.
Homosexuality is a moral issue for human race. Human race can keep existing only through heterosexual relationships.

Quote:
A homosexual can follow all appropriate moral values: honesty, productivity, rationality, courage, self worth, justice, individual rights....
There is no productivity through reproduction by homosexuals. They have been good in productivity of AIDS.

Quote:
Homosexuality is NOT an evil ideology like islam where moral values are terrorism, hate, beating women, slaughter of disbelievers, sex with children, rape, slavery ... all sorts of initiation of force, etc.
My religion is Islam, and none of this is required or commanded by Islam or else I too would be terrorist, hateful, beating women, slaughtering unbelievers around me, having sex with children, raping women slaughtering homosexuals and having slaves.

Quote:
Can you imagine if heterosexualness was considered evil and punishable by death?
Punishable by whom? By homosexuals or by God?

Quote:
What fresh hell would humans go through knowing they could never have romantic love and it's ultimate consummation. This is the kind of hell Islam submits homosexuals to. Misery. Hate. Torture. Death. For being who you are and loving who you love!
If the ultimate consummation leads to the end of human race, and is considered romantic love, then consummation with a dog will be the next step in romantic love.

Quote:
Muhammed rapes a 4th grader and the quran OK's mass rape with slaves and captives and sex with children.
None of that is true. There is no sex approved outside the marriage between a man and a woman. Rape is a forced sex. This is forbidden in the Qur'an.

Quote:
It's the INITIATION OF FORCE that is evil! And Islam is all about INITIATION OF FORCE.
A LIE AGAINST ISLAM. ISLAM IS SUBMISSION.
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Old 06-22-2016, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It will harm, in short term, others around them and, in long term, the whole human race. As long as I don't have to pay in any way for their actions, it's fine with me if they want to be the last generation in that line.

It can lead to the end of the human race eventually just as it did lead to the end of humans in Sodom and Gomorrah.[/b]

Homosexuality is a moral issue for human race. Human race can keep existing only through heterosexual relationships.
Again you are very ignorant on this.

I have mentioned by the principles of the Normal Distribution there will only a small percentile of deviations from norms [the majority], i.e. in this case hardwired homosexuality.
The majority of humans will have an aversion for homosexuality.
My guess is the hardwired homosexuals at most [based on surveys and observation] is 2% of the population with say 5% who are 50/50 [bisexual, etc.]

Therefore based on 7 billion there are appx. 140 million hardwired [nature-based] homosexual or 350 million 50/50 homosexuals where both are very large numbers but these large numbers are not significant at all in terms of reproducing the next generations of humans.

There are still a potential of 6,850,000,000 humans who are inclined to reproduce the next generation of humans. This large number is more than enough to guarantee the next generation and continuation of the human species. Perhaps 6.85 billion is too large to the extent of being detrimental due to over population and limited resources on Earth.

I think even if we have 20% who are homosexuals, there is still no worry of the end of the human race.

So you talking of the end of the human race is nonsense and based on ignorance.


On the other hand, the 20%, i.e. 300 million of evil prone Muslims being influenced by the evil laden verses in the Quran is a greater possibility and threat to end the human race.
This is so when these evil prone Muslims get easy access to Weapons of Mass Destruction [WMDs] cheaply and they will have no hesitation to drop all their nuclear weapons to kill all since they are guaranteed to be martyrs by Allah in the Quran if they die in the cause of Allah. Try proving me wrong on this possibility.
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Old 06-23-2016, 12:16 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
In the Qur'an, it is punishable only by Allah. There is no punishment by other human beings ordained in the Qur'an.
There sure is in shariah. And the hate is in the quran with allah killing homosexuals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It will harm, in short term, others around them and, in long term, the whole human race. As long as I don't have to pay in any way for their actions, it's fine with me if they want to be the last generation in that line.
And do you care about all the millions of people slaughtered by Muslims in the name of Is;lam and that it was the end of THEIR line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Islam is from Allah only and is in the Qur'an only. It was perfected with 5:3. Anything else from men after that is not Islam but Hislam never approved by Allah. The only lawful sex is, according to the Qur'an, through the marriage between man and woman.
Islam is from muhammed only and islam consists of the quran, written by muhammed, hadiths, written by islamic historians about muhammed's life and shariah which is the Islamic legal system governing the members of the Islamic faith and is derived from the Quran and the Hadith. You can deny that all you want. Islam is not all about YOU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Load of nonsense and hate against the Muslims and the Qur'an!

The Qur'an does not incite hatred of homosexuals nor are Muslims commanded in the Qur'an to slaughter and torture homosexuals.


The Quran says:
Quran (7:80-84) - "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)"

Quran (7:81) - "Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?"

Quran (26:165-166) - "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing"

Sahabas (the companions, disciples, scribes and family of the Islamic prophet Muhammad) agreed on severe punishments for sodomy. Some say that homosexuals should be burned and stoned, others say they should be thrown from height and then stoned, some said they should just be stoned. They agreed, punishment should be death.

Sharia teaches that homosexuality is a vile form of fornication, punishable by death.

The hadith (documentation by Islamic historians about the life of Muhammed, second in importance to Islam after the quran):
Abu Dawud (4462) - The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Lot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.".

Abu Dawud (4448) - "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death." (Note the implicit approval of sodomizing one's wife).

Bukhari (72:774) - "The Prophet cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, 'Turn them out of your houses .' The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman."

al-Tirmidhi, Sunan 1:152 - [Muhammad said] "Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver."

So stop with the lying. This is what Islam says.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It can lead to the end of the human race eventually just as it did lead to the end of humans in Sodom and Gomorrah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post

Homosexuality is a moral issue for human race. Human race can keep existing only through heterosexual relationships.

There is no productivity through reproduction by homosexuals. They have been good in productivity of AIDS.
Continuum saved me some time here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
My religion is Islam, and none of this is required or commanded by Islam or else I too would be terrorist, hateful, beating women, slaughtering unbelievers around me, having sex with children, raping women slaughtering homosexuals and having slaves.
I don't know what you do. I know what Islam says and I know that good people do not choose to follow evil ideologies. I know the history of Islam and I know what Muslims are doing today in the name of Islam.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Punishable by whom? By homosexuals or by God?
The 'who' doesn't matter.

[quote=Khalif;44513207If the ultimate consummation leads to the end of human race, and is considered romantic love, then consummation with a dog will be the next step in romantic love. [/QUOTE]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
None of that is true. There is no sex approved outside the marriage between a man and a woman. Rape is a forced sex. This is forbidden in the Qur'an.
It's all true. I've posted the verses over and over. Muhammed and his men raped captive women en masse.

The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)
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Old 06-23-2016, 03:42 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Islam is from muhammed only and islam consists of the quran, written by muhammed, hadiths, written by islamic historians about muhammed's life and shariah which is the Islamic legal system governing the members of the Islamic faith and is derived from the Quran and the Hadith. You can deny that all you want. Islam is not all about YOU.
Islam is never about what YOU say.

Quote:
The Quran says:
Quran (7:80-84) - "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)"

Quran (7:81) - "Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?"

Quran (26:165-166) - "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing"
These verses are part of story of Lot's people. No punishment from people in there!

Quote:
Sahabas (the companions, disciples, scribes and family of the Islamic prophet Muhammad) agreed on severe punishments for sodomy. Some say that homosexuals should be burned and stoned, others say they should be thrown from height and then stoned, some said they should just be stoned. They agreed, punishment should be death.
Nothing like that is in the Qur'an.

Quote:
Sharia teaches that homosexuality is a vile form of fornication, punishable by death.
Nothing like that is commanded in the Qur'an.

Quote:
The hadith (documentation by Islamic historians about the life of Muhammed, second in importance to Islam after the quran):
Untrue! Hadith, other than Hadith of Allah (the Qur'an), is not to be believed according to the Qur'an:

[45.6] These are the ayat of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His ayat?

Quote:
Abu Dawud (4462) - The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Lot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.".
The Messenger of Allah never said so or else it would have been in the Qur'an. I completely reject this hadith. It is not a part of Islam that was perfected (5:3) about 200 years before this hadith was written by anyone.

[13.40] And We will either let you see part of what We threaten them with or cause you to die, for only the delivery of the message is (incumbent) on you, while calling (them) to account is Our (business).

[29.18] And if you reject (the truth), nations before you did indeed reject (the truth); and nothing is incumbent on the Messenger but a plain delivering (of the message).

The Qur'an is clear; the Messenger of Allah was to deliver the Message of the Qur'an only. Anything that is outside the Qur'an was not from the "Messenger of Allah".

Quote:
So stop with the lying. This is what Islam says.
It is not what Islam says but what Hislam says and you can't tell the difference. Read the Qur'an before you lie about Islam. The Qur'an is Islam that was perfected looooooong before anyone wrote hadith books. You lie just as hadith writers lied.


Quote:
I don't know what you do. I know what Islam says and I know that good people do not choose to follow evil ideologies. I know the history of Islam and I know what Muslims are doing today in the name of Islam.
I don't follow evil ideologies. I follow Islam. I do not kill homosexuals. There is no command from Allah through the Qur'an to kill homosexuals.

[13.40] And We will either let you see part of what We threaten them with or cause you to die, for only the delivery of the message is (incumbent) on you, while calling (them) to account is Our (business).

Only the delivery of the Message of the Qur'an was required from the Messenger and it was up to Allah to bring the homosexuals to account.

Quote:
It's all true. I've posted the verses over and over. Muhammed and his men raped captive women en masse.
The verses that matter are in the Qur'an. In the Qur'an, there is no sex approved outside the marriage.

Quote:
The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)
A complete lie and misrepresenting the verse!
The verse 4:24 is not about sex outside the marriage but of marriage:

[4.24] And all married women (are forbidden) except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

But of course you are ignorant about the Qur'an and, therefore, Islam.
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Old 06-23-2016, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The verses that matter are in the Qur'an. In the Qur'an, there is no sex approved outside the marriage.

A complete lie and misrepresenting the verse!
The verse 4:24 is not about sex outside the marriage but of marriage:

[4.24] And all married women (are forbidden) except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

But of course you are ignorant about the Qur'an and, therefore, Islam.
4:24 is about sex and marriage.
The sex element continues from the last statement in 4:23,
4:23 [last part] And (it is forbidden unto you) that ye should have two sisters together, except what hath already happened (of that nature) in the past. Lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
There is no specific mentioned of 'marrying two sisters' but rather "having two sisters."

Thus 4:24 continue with,
And you are forbidden to have sex with all married women except captive slaves or any slaves.
Therefore 4:24 permit sex outside marriage.

The critical point here is no one on Earth can be the ultimate judge that 4:24 is not about sex with slaves outside marriage.

Those* [not you] who accept the Ahadith as divine, agreed 4:24 refer to permission to have sex with slaves without marrying them.
*These are the Sunnis and Shias who form almost 95% of Muslims who are representing Islam. Since the interpretation in 4:24 cannot be categorical certain, the majority's views in this case prevail.

Some Sunnis argued the permission for a Muslim to have sex outside marriage with his slaves [captive or otherwise] 4:24 it time-based to that specific period during Muhammad's time and conditional upon relevant circumstances of war, etc. But such arguments are full of holes.

What happened in reality is SOME Muslims will argue they are always at war with non-Muslims as long as they see non-Muslims as a threat to the religion of Islam in various circumstances [sanctioned by the Quran]. Therefore the taking of non-Muslims as slaves and forcing sex upon them is justified [by 4:24] in such circumstances.

There is no issue with the majority of 'good' Muslims [like yourself] in this case, but what is in reality of real concern is there are 20% [that is a pool of 300 million ] Muslims who are unfortunately born with evil tendencies who will be influenced and inspired by the sexual permissibility with slaves in 4:24. This is not a speculation but it is a historical and present reality whenever SOME Muslims invoked the call of war [based on senseless reasons from the Quran] against non-Muslims around the world and this will go on in the future for eternity.
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Old 06-24-2016, 12:23 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Islam is never about what YOU say.

These verses are part of story of Lot's people. No punishment from people in there!

Nothing like that is in the Qur'an.

Nothing like that is commanded in the Qur'an.

Untrue! Hadith, other than Hadith of Allah (the Qur'an), is not to be believed according to the Qur'an:

[45.6] These are the ayat of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His ayat?

The Messenger of Allah never said so or else it would have been in the Qur'an. I completely reject this hadith. It is not a part of Islam that was perfected (5:3) about 200 years before this hadith was written by anyone.

[13.40] And We will either let you see part of what We threaten them with or cause you to die, for only the delivery of the message is (incumbent) on you, while calling (them) to account is Our (business).

[29.18] And if you reject (the truth), nations before you did indeed reject (the truth); and nothing is incumbent on the Messenger but a plain delivering (of the message).

The Qur'an is clear; the Messenger of Allah was to deliver the Message of the Qur'an only. Anything that is outside the Qur'an was not from the "Messenger of Allah".

It is not what Islam says but what Hislam says and you can't tell the difference. Read the Qur'an before you lie about Islam. The Qur'an is Islam that was perfected looooooong before anyone wrote hadith books. You lie just as hadith writers lied.


I don't follow evil ideologies. I follow Islam. I do not kill homosexuals. There is no command from Allah through the Qur'an to kill homosexuals.

[13.40] And We will either let you see part of what We threaten them with or cause you to die, for only the delivery of the message is (incumbent) on you, while calling (them) to account is Our (business).

Only the delivery of the Message of the Qur'an was required from the Messenger and it was up to Allah to bring the homosexuals to account.

The verses that matter are in the Qur'an. In the Qur'an, there is no sex approved outside the marriage.

A complete lie and misrepresenting the verse!
The verse 4:24 is not about sex outside the marriage but of marriage:

[4.24] And all married women (are forbidden) except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

But of course you are ignorant about the Qur'an and, therefore, Islam.

[4.24] And all married women (are forbidden) except those whom your right hands possess

What does except those whom your right hands possess mean??? All married women EXCEPT....EXCEPT....THERE IS AN EXCEPTION. And what does 'right hand possesses' mean????

This verse forbids screwing married women except if they are slaves or captives (whom your right hand possesses). It's just fine to brutally mass rape captives after slaughtering their sons, fathers, husbands, brothers....and it's just fine to screw/rape slaves.

Let's add the context from the hadith you want to hide:

Muhammad/Allah encouraged the rape of women captured in battle. This hadith provides the context for the Qur’anic verse (4:24):
The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

The quran says it, the hadiths say it. You try to lie about it.

Who sent the brimstone to kill people?

Islam is an evil ideology and you follow it.
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Old 06-24-2016, 04:09 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
[4.24] And all married women (are forbidden) except those whom your right hands possess

What does except those whom your right hands possess mean??? All married women EXCEPT....EXCEPT....THERE IS AN EXCEPTION. And what does 'right hand possesses' mean????

This verse forbids screwing married women except if they are slaves or captives (whom your right hand possesses).
Read the verse in full once more:

[4.24] And all married women (are forbidden) except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

The verse is not about sex outside the marriage but the verse is about marriage, who is forbidden for marriage and who is not forbidden for marriage. The verse is clear that there must not be any fornication (sex outside marriage) even if they are slaves or captives. Sex with slaves or captives is allowed only after the marriage with them. The very next verse (4:25) also confirms what I am telling you here.

Quote:
It's just fine to brutally mass rape captives after slaughtering their sons, fathers, husbands, brothers....and it's just fine to screw/rape slaves.
Don't be so silly! Can't you read And all married women (are forbidden) except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, in the verse?

What does and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, mean?

The verse 4:25 (the next verse) tells you about the marriage with them. There would be no need for marriage with them if it was lawful in Islam to screw the captives without marrying them first. Here is that next verse in context:

[4:25] And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. Ye (proceed) one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk, and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honorably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case). This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

It really is stupidity of the Islam haters to ignore either part of the verse or the verses in context just to spew hate against Islam and all Muslims when there is no sex outside the marriage at all in the Qur'an.

Quote:
Let's add the context from the hadith you want to hide:

Muhammad/Allah encouraged the rape of women captured in battle. This hadith provides the context for the Qur’anic verse (4:24):
The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)
This hadith is not the context of the Qur'an 4:24 but 4:25 is.

Quote:
The quran says it, the hadiths say it. You try to lie about it.
The Qur'an does not say it; you say it and ignorant hadith writers wrote it. You lie as you try to hide 4:25. I don't believe any hadith crap that contradicts the Qur'an and it has not been approved either by Allah or his messenger.

[4:25] And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. Ye (proceed) one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk, and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honorably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case). This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

So why should there be guidance to marry those "whom your right had possess" if sex with them without marrying them was lawful? Perhaps the Islam hating sites are not giving you the full picture but just enough bait for you to spew hate against Islam in your ignorance.

Quote:
Islam is an evil ideology and you follow it.
Don't be so stupid; I follow no evil ideology. You are falsely accusing me because you hate me as you hate all Muslims. You will have to stop spewing this hate against Islam and all Muslims as you are so obsessed in doing so post after post.
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Old 06-24-2016, 04:54 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
4:24 is about sex and marriage.
The sex element continues from the last statement in 4:23,
4:23 [last part] And (it is forbidden unto you) that ye should have two sisters together, except what hath already happened (of that nature) in the past. Lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
There is no specific mentioned of 'marrying two sisters' but rather "having two sisters."
There is no specific mention of sex with two sisters either. 4:24 as well as 4:25 and of course 4:23 are about marriage and the marriage theme begins with the previous verses (including 4:22):

[4.22] And marry not woman whom your fathers married, except what has already passed; this surely is indecent and hateful, and it is an evil way.

Would you now ike me to go further back in context?

Quote:
Thus 4:24 continue with,
And you are forbidden to have sex with all married women except captive slaves or any slaves.
Therefore 4:24 permit sex outside marriage.
Sex isn't mentioned there at all but only marriage. ...and lawful for you are besides those, does that mean that you can't have sex with those two groups?

Quote:
The critical point here is no one on Earth can be the ultimate judge that 4:24 is not about sex with slaves outside marriage.
Ony a blind will not see marriage mentioned in the verse but no sex outside marriage.

Quote:
Those* [not you] who accept the Ahadith as divine, agreed 4:24 refer to permission to have sex with slaves without marrying them.
Any ignorant about the Qur'an will agree with them and with you. Nobody with knowledge about the Qur'an will accept these ahadith to be divine.

Quote:
*These are the Sunnis and Shias who form almost 95% of Muslims who are representing Islam. Since the interpretation in 4:24 cannot be categorical certain, the majority's views in this case prevail.
All (Sunnis and Shias) were told not to break into sects. Allah cursed those who broke into sects. I do not go with the majority as, according to the Qur'an, the majority of the mankind will go to hell.

Quote:
Some Sunnis argued the permission for a Muslim to have sex outside marriage with his slaves [captive or otherwise] 4:24 it time-based to that specific period during Muhammad's time and conditional upon relevant circumstances of war, etc. But such arguments are full of holes.
There is no hole in the Qur'an. I have yet to meet a Sunni who is really a Sunni. I have a method to test them. So far, not one has passed the test.
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Old 06-24-2016, 06:34 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Read the verse in full once more:

[4.24] And all married women (are forbidden) except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

The verse is not about sex outside the marriage but the verse is about marriage, who is forbidden for marriage and who is not forbidden for marriage. The verse is clear that there must not be any fornication (sex outside marriage) even if they are slaves or captives. Sex with slaves or captives is allowed only after the marriage with them. The very next verse (4:25) also confirms what I am telling you here.

Don't be so silly! Can't you read And all married women (are forbidden) except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, in the verse?

What does and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, mean?

The verse 4:25 (the next verse) tells you about the marriage with them. There would be no need for marriage with them if it was lawful in Islam to screw the captives without marrying them first. Here is that next verse in context:

[4:25] And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. Ye (proceed) one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk, and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honorably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case). This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

It really is stupidity of the Islam haters to ignore either part of the verse or the verses in context just to spew hate against Islam and all Muslims when there is no sex outside the marriage at all in the Qur'an.



This hadith is not the context of the Qur'an 4:24 but 4:25 is.

The Qur'an does not say it; you say it and ignorant hadith writers wrote it. You lie as you try to hide 4:25. I don't believe any hadith crap that contradicts the Qur'an and it has not been approved either by Allah or his messenger.

[4:25] And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. Ye (proceed) one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk, and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honorably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case). This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

So why should there be guidance to marry those "whom your right had possess" if sex with them without marrying them was lawful? Perhaps the Islam hating sites are not giving you the full picture but just enough bait for you to spew hate against Islam in your ignorance.

Don't be so stupid; I follow no evil ideology. You are falsely accusing me because you hate me as you hate all Muslims. You will have to stop spewing this hate against Islam and all Muslims as you are so obsessed in doing so post after post.
It means just what it says:
[4.24] And all married women (are forbidden) except those whom your right hands possess

Forbidden FOR SCREWING, except slaves and captives. You can screw those women.

Muhsin Khan
Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess.

Pickthall
And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.

MORE:
Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"

Pay close attention here:

Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..."


The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

"O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do coitus interruptus. A soul that which Allah has destined to exist will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)

"We went out with Allah's Messenger on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger, and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)

I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah met me in the street and said: “Give me that girl.” (Sahih Muslim 4345)

The apostle gave Ali a girl called Rayta; and he gave Uthman a girl called Zaynab; and he gave Umar a girl whom Umar gave to his son Abdullah. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 878)
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Old 06-24-2016, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There is no specific mention of sex with two sisters either. 4:24 as well as 4:25 and of course 4:23 are about marriage and the marriage theme begins with the previous verses (including 4:22):

[4.22] And marry not woman whom your fathers married, except what has already passed; this surely is indecent and hateful, and it is an evil way.

Would you now ike me to go further back in context?

Sex isn't mentioned there at all but only marriage. ...and lawful for you are besides those, does that mean that you can't have sex with those two groups?

Ony a blind will not see marriage mentioned in the verse but no sex outside marriage.
That is the problem with your inability to understand of the nuances of the Quran after having read the Quran ONLY 6-7 times minimally.

In context the element of sex begin at 4:15

4:15. As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, [immoral conduct, indecency]
Obviously "lewdness" in this case is related to sex.

4:19 also mentioned "lewdness" immoral conduct, thus "sex"
4:21. How can ye take it (back) after one of you hath gone in unto the other, and they have taken a strong pledge from you?
"Gone in unto the other" is obviously sexual intercourse.

In context from 4:15 the topic involved immoral sex and sex outside marriage, and from 4:15 the topic of "sex outside marriage" is interlinked to all verses up to 4:24 and to 4:25.

In the context of the whole of the Quran, 4:15 to 4:25 is driven primarily by "sex" in a big sense which thus lead to the consideration of marriage.
How did you missed that obvious element of sex?
Note there are many other verses that are leveraged by the consideration of "sex" and "lust" all over the Quran.

Therefore in 4:24, the intention is "no sex with all married women, except slaves.."

Quote:
Any ignorant about the Qur'an will agree with them and with you. Nobody with knowledge about the Qur'an will accept these ahadith to be divine.
I have stated many times the Ahadith cannot have divine authority at all.
But for those who adopt the Ahadith whatever is reconciliable and agree with the Quran is valid as Islamic which Allah will approve.
In this case the various hadiths in reference to sex outside marriage agrees with the 4:15, i.e. sex outside marriage is permitted with slaves. Thus those Muslims who raped slaves and captive slaves will not be punished by Allah on Judgment Day.

Quote:
All (Sunnis and Shias) were told not to break into sects. Allah cursed those who broke into sects. I do not go with the majority as, according to the Qur'an, the majority of the mankind will go to hell.
I agree with you on this. They [Sunni and Shia] may have committed sins in breaking into sects but this is not a serious sin. It is a very natural instincts of human beings to form groups.
IF they comply with 95% of what is in accordance with the Quran and sinned only 2% [without any unpardonable sin] that is big no real issue with Allah.

Quote:
There is no hole in the Qur'an. I have yet to meet a Sunni who is really a Sunni. I have a method to test them. So far, not one has passed the test.
That was not my point. I stated some of the Sunni's arguments that sex with slaves in the Quran was only relevant to the 7th century but not 22nd century. I said their arguments [not the Quran] on are full of holes.

In another perspective, yes the Quran's arguments are full of holes.

Last edited by Continuum; 06-24-2016 at 09:03 PM..
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