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Old 06-29-2016, 02:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are ignorant [blinded] of human nature that the topic "sex" is naturally embedded with the topic of marriage even though it is not explicit.
You are deliberately being ignorant and blinded by thought of sex in these verses when the verses are clearly about marriage. Topic of marriage is explicit. You want to change it to topic of sex.

[4.22-25] And marry not woman whom your fathers married, except what has already passed; this surely is indecent and hateful, and it is an evil way. Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together (in marriage), except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are besides those, provided that you seek with your property, taking in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise. And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The above is what is stated in the Qur'an.

Below is how YOU want to read it:


[4.22-25] And do not have sex with the woman whom your fathers had sex with, except what has already passed; this surely is indecent and hateful, and it is an evil way. Forbidden to you is to have sex with your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your those to whom you have had sex with, but if you have not had sex with them, there is no blame on you (in having sex with them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have sex with two sisters together, except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And (forbidden to you is to have sex with) all women who are having sex with another man except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you to have sex are besides those, provided that you seek with your property, taking them for sex and not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you enjoy sex by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise. And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to have sex with free believing women, then (have sex with) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other; so have sex with them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are being used for sex, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
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Old 06-29-2016, 11:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You are deliberately being ignorant and blinded by thought of sex in these verses when the verses are clearly about marriage. Topic of marriage is explicit. You want to change it to topic of sex.

Below is how YOU want to read it:


<snipped>
Note my counter view here;
http://www.city-data.com/forum/44594611-post12.html

What about the Question I raised earlier in relation to this OP,

Khalif,

Back to OP, while there are definitely homosexuals who are influenced by their nurturing and social environment, what is critical here is do you agree homosexuals are born naturally and there is nothing they can do about what is happening in their brain?

While it may be easier for those nurture-based homosexuals to suppress their homosexual tendencies or change, it is very difficult for the nature-based homosexuals to suppress their homosexual drives. This is because the homosexual connections [rather mis-connection] happened deep within the brain.
Therefore as concerned citizens of humanity we need to extend empathy and compassion to these nature-based homosexuals [as fellow human beings] rather than condemn them to hell or kill them.

Nature-based homosexuals do not request to be born that way and I believe most would not like to be in that state but deep down wish they could be normal heterosexual.
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Old 06-30-2016, 07:52 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Khalif,

Back to OP, while there are definitely homosexuals who are influenced by their nurturing and social environment, what is critical here is do you agree homosexuals are born naturally and there is nothing they can do about what is happening in their brain?
I believe that a human being is not born with a brain already wired to be only homosexual. A human brain, I believe, is a clean slate at birth and it is wired to our senses for input into it. It is this input that makes the brain work one way or the other. Nature created the human brain the same way with the same potential. This is why some people stay uneducated and the others are highly educated as a result of the input into their brain. To say that uneducated people are born that way and there is nothing they can do about what is happening in their brain is false argument.

Unless homosexuals are genetically homosexuals only, I am not convinced that they can only have homosexual relationship. In fact, most of them claim that they can be heterosexuals without any problem.

Quote:
While it may be easier for those nurture-based homosexuals to suppress their homosexual tendencies or change, it is very difficult for the nature-based homosexuals to suppress their homosexual drives. This is because the homosexual connections [rather mis-connection] happened deep within the brain.
What was the real reason for their homosexual connection (rather mis-connection) in the brain?

Quote:
Therefore as concerned citizens of humanity we need to extend empathy and compassion to these nature-based homosexuals [as fellow human beings] rather than condemn them to hell or kill them.
Killing them is not an option for us when taking into account the commands for us in the Qur'an. Any story about homosexuals in the Qur'an is for us heterosexuals to prevent us from doing homosexual act rather than to take any action against the homosexuals. I have, therefore, no right to kill any homosexual, and never will. As for condemning them to hell, again, it is not up to any human being to condemn them to hell. Only God can do that and we are not God.

Quote:
Nature-based homosexuals do not request to be born that way and I believe most would not like to be in that state but deep down wish they could be normal heterosexual.
Is their brain different genetically at birth than the brain of heterosexual?

My point is that a vast majority of homosexuals can be heterosexuals without any problem. When discussing this topic with them in a similar forum to this one, they have admitted that they can have sex with a woman without any problem. In other words, most are nurtured into becoming homosexual if not all.
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Old 06-30-2016, 07:29 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 660,944 times
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[quote=Khalif;44597177]

Quote:
Killing them is not an option for us when taking into account the commands for us in the Qur'an. Any story about homosexuals in the Qur'an is for us heterosexuals to prevent us from doing homosexual act rather than to take any action against the homosexuals. I have, therefore, no right to kill any homosexual, and never will. As for condemning them to hell, again, it is not up to any human being to condemn them to hell. Only God can do that and we are not God.
You provide your personal situation
But you do not understand Islam
Or you want to present Islam in a different way and wrong
For this reason, I invite you to speak right
This is the attitude of Muslims and Muslim scholars from homosexuality
Sodomy a crime of the greatest crimes, and the ugliest sins, and the worst acts of God has punished the perpetrators, including not punished by the nation
Companions were unanimous on the execution of homosexuals, but they differed in the way to kill him, some of whom went on to be burned in the fire
And of whom he said: thrown from a high place, and follows with stones
all this do you
Understand more of them
(He went Abu Bakr and Ali bin Abi Talib, Khalid Bin Al Waleed Abdullah bin Zubair, Abdullah bin Abbas and Malik Ishaq bin Raahawayh and Imam Ahmad healthiest in two versions with him)
It was proven that Khaled ibn al-Walid that he had found in some aspects of Arab men marry as with a woman, wrote to Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, consulted with Abu Bakr Sahaba, was Ali Ibn Abi Taleb hardest word in it, he said: What did this only one nation and one we know what God has done it. I see that burned in the fire, Abu Bakr wrote to Khalid burn him .
And Ibn Abbas is narrated from the Prophet, peace be upon him: (from ye have found work work sodomites Vaqtheloa actor and accusative) Narrated by al-Sunan and classed Ibn Hibban and others, protested Imam Ahmad in this modern and attributed to Al-Bukhari condition.
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Old 06-30-2016, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I believe that a human being is not born with a brain already wired to be only homosexual.
A human brain, I believe, is a clean slate at birth and it is wired to our senses for input into it. It is this input that makes the brain work one way or the other.
Nature created the human brain the same way with the same potential. This is why some people stay uneducated and the others are highly educated as a result of the input into their brain. To say that uneducated people are born that way and there is nothing they can do about what is happening in their brain is false argument.
When it comes to such basic Science the worst is to began with 'I believe this and that ..."
Hey! Science is not a theistic religion which can be subject to your whims and fancies.

Show me supporting current research for your clean slate 'tabula rasa' theory that can withstand current arguments against it.

Here is a point against the clean state theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
Important evidence against the tabula rasa model of the mind comes from behavioural genetics, especially twin and adoption studies. These indicate strong genetic influences on personal characteristics such as IQ, alcoholism, gender identity, and other traits.[11] Critically, multivariate studies show that the distinct faculties of the mind, such as memory and reason, fractionate along genetic boundaries. Cultural universals such as emotion and the relative resilience of psychological adaptation to accidental biological changes (for instance the David Reimer case of gender reassignment following an accident) also support basic biological mechanisms in the mind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula...d_neurobiology
I agree there is an ideal generic pattern that Nature expect for all human beings. E.g. males should be 100% males and females should be 100% females. Such an expectation is only an ideal.
But in nature, reality of what results do not always turn out be exactly as in any intended blueprint. As with homosexuals [strong, birth] there are hermaphrodites, transgenders, and other variations from the expected 100% pure male or female.

Example:
A architect may draw out a standard blueprint of a terrace house for a developer to built 1,000 houses within a housing estate. The final product of each house will always have minor variations during the building of the houses due to various factors, e.g. environment, human errors, etc.

Similarly nature has a blueprint for humans.
The difference is the human brain is 1 million million times or more complicated than a building and errors due happen during the growth and connection of the brain during the fetus stage.
This is why color blindness and synaethesia and other wrong connections like homosexuality happen before birth. This is the most obvious reason how homosexuals are born, i.e. nature.

The other reason that homosexual are born is due to DNA of the father's sperm or mother's egg and errors happen when they merged during fertilization. This is very possible but more difficult to justify.

Quote:
Unless homosexuals are genetically homosexuals only, I am not convinced that they can only have homosexual relationship. In fact, most of them claim that they can be heterosexuals without any problem.
Homosexuality is not based on physical but the mental programming.
It is so obvious with the physical where a male homosexual and obvious have physical sex with a female, but that do not make the person a heterosexual per-se.

Quote:
What was the real reason for their homosexual connection (rather mis-connection) in the brain?
As I had explained there are 100 billions neurons each with up to 10,000 organic connectors in the average human brain. To ensure a proper male or female the very minute connectors of the neurons [1/1000th width of the human hair] must be very precisely connected during the fetus' development.
Because of the very high precision required from the very fine connectors there is bound to be errors in connection in nature. This is due to various reasons which could be due to the neurotransmitter chemical mix and other factors that existed in the brain.

For the male homosexual, there is a mis-connection where the male person is stimulated/triggered by of female features/stimuli instead of male stimuli. This why a strong male homosexual will not feel sexually stimulated upon seeing even a naked Miss Universe doing a striptease act. The strong male homosexual will be sexually or romantically be stimulated by another male attributes.

Quote:
Killing them is not an option for us when taking into account the commands for us in the Qur'an. Any story about homosexuals in the Qur'an is for us heterosexuals to prevent us from doing homosexual act rather than to take any action against the homosexuals. I have, therefore, no right to kill any homosexual, and never will. As for condemning them to hell, again, it is not up to any human being to condemn them to hell. Only God can do that and we are not God.
The Quran do not specifically mentioned homosexual must be killed but indirectly lead SOME evil prone Muslims to kill homosexuals due to the following;

1. Allah condemned homosexuals as in verses related to LOT.
2. The homosexuals in LOT's time were killed and destroyed in the most evil and violent manner.
3. Allah sanction the fighting and killing those who engage in activities that is a threat against Islam.
4. Homosexuality as demonstrated in the Story of Lot is a corruption abhor by Allah and Islam.
5. Based on 3, Muslims can fight and kill homosexuals.

The above is the passport and approval for any Muslims to fight and kill homosexuals.
I understand the majority moderates [like you] who are very humane will not adopt and exercise such a permission but the permit is there nevertheless as infer from the Quran, i.e. Allah's words.
The fact is there is a pool 20% of evil prone Muslims who will take it upon their duty to please Allah in accordance to Allah permission to kill homosexuals. When they kill homosexual in accordance to Allah's permit, they do not sin at all.
Unfortunately you have no power to insist these evil prone are wrong.

Quote:
Is their brain different genetically at birth than the brain of heterosexual?
There are 100 billions neurons each with up to 10,000 organic connectors.
The connecting pattern of the homosexual at birth is definitely different from the brain of the heterosexual.

Quote:
My point is that a vast majority of homosexuals can be heterosexuals without any problem. When discussing this topic with them in a similar forum to this one, they have admitted that they can have sex with a woman without any problem. In other words, most are nurtured into becoming homosexual if not all.
Physically, yes it is very obvious, all homosexuals can perform heterosexual act but not psychologically and mentally.
But the topic of homosexuality [nature, strong] is more about the mental element than the sexual element.

It is the same with theism, the majority of theists can be non-theists or vice-versa by just switching their beliefs. I have posted before how difficult it is for a theist to be non-theists despite the irrationality of the beliefs and whatever evil the beliefs are associated with.
It is the same for a non-theist to be a theist when their brain are aligned with truths rather than irrationality.

For the strong homosexuals, they are like theists who cannot switch or change mentally against what they are programmed at birth. If force to there will be a lot of mental sufferings and pains.
For the strong homosexual, the only way is to rewire/correct the brain from the 'error' at birth and that is impossible at present.

Therefore;
Strong homosexuals are born due to misconnections in the brain during the fetus' development and there is nothing humanity can do at present to correct the connections.
To force a homosexual to change is tantamount to subjecting them to severe mental tortures and pains.
Thus a good human being must a thorough understand of what is homosexuality and exercise empathy and compassion for homosexuals.

Those [I once was but no more] who condemn homosexuality are lazy ignorant b.... [in this case] who refuse to learn the truths of the real mechanisms of the brain and how it works physically and psychologically.

Last edited by Continuum; 06-30-2016 at 11:46 PM..
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Old 07-01-2016, 07:50 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
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I think the above might be a bit much for a 7th century mindset.
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Old 07-01-2016, 07:55 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
In Islam all sexual acts outside of Marriage are considered evil. Being Homosexual is not evil. however some actions resulting from homosexual feelings might be.

People are born in awide variation of sexual orientation. That is not the problem. The problem is when one commits sexual act outside of marriage.
Sounds outrageous, illogical, and tyrannical.
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Old 07-01-2016, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
Sounds outrageous, illogical, and tyrannical.

Not if life is a test as we believe and facing sexual desires is part of this test. Life is a learning and testing experience in which we learn what our options and choices are and what choices we will choose of our own free will.
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Old 07-02-2016, 12:30 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Not if life is a test as we believe and facing sexual desires is part of this test. Life is a learning and testing experience in which we learn what our options and choices are and what choices we will choose of our own free will.
Unfortunately your above views reflect an ignorance of human nature and reality.

The average human brain has 100 billions each with up to 10,000 organic connectors which can connect to any other surround connectors.
Just imagine, a human brain is like an Earth with 100 billion humans each holding up to 10,000 smartphones. Note the number of possible combinations and permutation of these connections.
To be a proper human working brain, all the smartphones will call up the right number at all times.

In reality and practice, nature do not follow the ideal set up and in the case of the above analogies there will always be the dialing of the wrong numbers and thus wrong connections.

There are degrees to the wrong connections with some being of low degree and some % of severe wrong connections.
Homosexuality [strong] is a type of severe wrong connectivity and that is because errors are inherent in nature and that is not a test. It is never a test in the first place. The concept of 'test' in such a situation is really a "stupid" idea. If Allah [God] is an all-powerful and supposedly all-compassionate, why did he subject to so many humans with terrible sufferings [physical, mental, psychological, etc] at birth.

When there are wrong connections [e.g. strong homosexuality], that some one is like being thrown into the terrible torrents water at the source of a river. In such a situation the most effective approach is to flow with the strong currents and optimize life instead of trying to swim against it and suffering all the time.
As such a person with strong homosexuality has to flow optimally with the surges of homosexual drives within instead of suppressing it, otherwise there will be terrible physical and psychological pains that will manifest as psychosomatic diseases.
To flow optimally mean a strong homosexual will have to do what his homosexual impulses drive him/her to act with no physical and moral harm to others.
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Old 07-02-2016, 04:58 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Not if life is a test as we believe and facing sexual desires is part of this test. Life is a learning and testing experience in which we learn what our options and choices are and what choices we will choose of our own free will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Unfortunately your above views reflect an ignorance of human nature and reality.

The average human brain has 100 billions each with up to 10,000 organic connectors which can connect to any other surround connectors.
Just imagine, a human brain is like an Earth with 100 billion humans each holding up to 10,000 smartphones. Note the number of possible combinations and permutation of these connections.
To be a proper human working brain, all the smartphones will call up the right number at all times.

In reality and practice, nature do not follow the ideal set up and in the case of the above analogies there will always be the dialing of the wrong numbers and thus wrong connections.
Unfortunately your argument is in ignorance of your control over your SELF (your smartphone).

What you are presenting here is your brain is like a smartphone and it calls the wrong numbers by itself.

Your analogies are getting worse day by day.
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