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Old 06-21-2016, 10:58 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Since there is so much controversies surrounding the issue of homosexuality and sodomy within Islam and the Quran and resulting in terrible consequences to humanity, I propose we discuss the following within Muslims here.


Why there are Homosexuals Naturally?

We are dealing with two perspectives of homosexuality here.
1. One is the homosexual acts by anyone.
2. The other relate to those who are born with very strong [high degree] of homosexual impulses.

While 1 is a concern in the Bible and Quran, what is most critical is 2, i.e. those born with homosexual impulses of various degree from low to high.

For those Muslims who are not familiar with what is in your own brain, I suggest you learn some basics of the anatomical features of the brain inside your skull.
I suggest you educate yourself to understand your own brain and its features.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain
Don't be a coward, go and learn the truth about your own self!



The average human brain has appx. 100 billion neurons where each neuron [see above image] has up to 10,000 synapses or connectors. Try to compute or imagine the number of possible permutations and combinations between these neurons and their connectors. The neurons and synapses are very fine [thinner than your hair, some width are 1/1000 of human hair]. Because they are so compact within a small space, there are very high possibility of cross-wirings or wrong wirings.

The default is all humans are supposed to be heterosexuals to ensure procreation, the production of the next generations and preserve the human species.

But with nature, things do not always go perfectly as expected and variations happens, especially so when the brain involve very fine organic mechanisms.

Normally when the productive male sexual system interacts with [triggered by] the relevant female features, the neurons and synapses will be activated, and the male will get an erection with an impulse of copulate.

Because nature is never perfect, in the case of a homosexual, the connectivity of the sexual systems is such that the neurons are connected in a deviated way that the sexual reaction is triggered by features of the same sex instead of the opposite sex as in heterosexual.
This is due to cross wirings or wrong wirings of the neurons and synapses from what is expected.

The fact here is cross-wirings or wrong wirings of the neurons happens in many other mental faculties due to many factors.
I mentioned synesthesia once where one can taste sweetness when hearing certain sounds. This is because the neurons of the taste cross-wired or were wrongly connected to hearing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

Thus due to many factors [nature and nurture] and the vulnerability of the neurons connectivity, there will definitely be a percentile of humans who will have their sexual neurons and synapses connected abnormally which end up their sexual reactions are triggered by features of the same sex.
There is nothing humanity can do at present to right this wrong connections especially with those connections that are strong.

Do you agree with the above? Btw this is serious knowledge of the human brain and how it works there is the same with your brain.

Because it is not the deliberate fault of those born with homosexual neural connections, humanity has no choice but to extend empathy and compassion to those is such unfortunate situations. This is the same with those transgender cases and those Muslims [20%] who are unfortunately born with evil tendencies.

The problem here is the Quran is ignorant of the above human nature and invent its own story of God, blah, blah, blah which create the catalyst to trigger and influence SOME Muslims who are unfortunately born with evil tendencies to commit terrible evils and violence.

Discuss?
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Old 06-22-2016, 03:15 AM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,051,162 times
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Blah, blah, blah!

ALL humans are born with potential to do evil acts as well as do good acts. Actions is triggered by their brains. And brain wil not trigger either good or evil action unless triggered by experience; external element/factor. This is why it is often said that we humans are products of our experiences.

You cannot argue one way for SOME Muslims doing evil acts being influenced by the external factors and then flip over and argue differently for the homosexuals doing their acts not being influenced by the external factors.

In fact if you read your argument carefully, you are telling me that their brains are getting cross wired when attracted by another of the same sex. It is still the external factor rather than their brain being different from other humans' brain.

You cannot argue that their brains are different rather than it is the external factor in each case.

It is the experiences that create differences in various personalities and their actions begin to vary, triggered by the external factors. Controlling one's impulses under various situations and when faced with various attractions/triggering-factors is known in Islam as controlling one's Self. This is the major jihad in one's life. The Qur'an has taught me how to do this jihad by controlling my Self.

Your argument is not that their brains are different than the heterosexuals' brains but that their brains work differently due to the external factors. In other words, the same brain can be triggered one way or the other under given situation and circumstance. This is why a heterosexual can also be homosexual. All have potential and ability to be both. External factor will decide which action they will do in various situations.

Lot's people were slaves of their experience and not that they could not have sex with females. They were perverted by seeing others doing such acts and they all got on to the same bandwagon.
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Old 06-22-2016, 07:12 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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In Islam all sexual acts outside of Marriage are considered evil. Being Homosexual is not evil. however some actions resulting from homosexual feelings might be.

People are born in awide variation of sexual orientation. That is not the problem. The problem is when one commits sexual act outside of marriage.
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Old 06-22-2016, 09:00 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 757,561 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
In Islam all sexual acts outside of Marriage are considered evil. Being Homosexual is not evil. however some actions resulting from homosexual feelings might be.

People are born in awide variation of sexual orientation. That is not the problem. The problem is when one commits sexual act outside of marriage.
What kind of twisted nonsense is this? To act in accord with your nature is evil when it harms no one else?
Yes, a homosexual rape is evil. So is a heterosexual rape. It is the act of rape, the initiation of force that is evil. Between two CONSENTING adults....mind your own business. And no, the issue is not just sex outside marriage. After reading the quran and hadiths and shariah only a fool would swallow that.

Look, the quran and hadiths and shariah all incite hatred of homosexuals. It's there for all to see. That is the cause. The effect is Orlando and other slaughter and torture of homosexuals by Muslims. Cause and effect.

Homosexuality is not a moral issue. A homosexual can follow all appropriate moral values: honesty, productivity, rationality, courage, self worth, justice, individual rights.... Homosexuality is NOT an evil ideology like islam where moral values are terrorism, hate, beating women, slaughter of disbelievers, sex with children, rape, slavery ... all sorts of initiation of force, etc.

Can you imagine if heterosexualness was considered evil and punishable by death? What fresh hell would humans go through knowing they could never have romantic love and it's ultimate consummation. This is the kind of hell Islam submits homosexuals to. Misery. Hate. Torture. Death. For being who you are and loving who you love!

Muhammed rapes a 4th grader and the quran OK's mass rape with slaves and captives and sex with children.

It's the INITIATION OF FORCE that is evil! And Islam is all about INITIATION OF FORCE.
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Old 06-22-2016, 09:05 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 757,561 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
some actions resulting from homosexual feelings might be [evil].

The problem is when one commits sexual act outside of marriage.
Pick one.
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Old 06-22-2016, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Pick one.
Any act that results in sexual gratification. All are forbidden except for couples that have an agreed upon Nikkah (Marriage).
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Old 06-22-2016, 12:47 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 757,561 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Any act that results in sexual gratification. All are forbidden except for couples that have an agreed upon Nikkah (Marriage).
Why?

So you are good with gay marriage?
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Old 06-22-2016, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,339,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Why?


So you are good with gay marriage?
I have no issue with a "Gay Marriage" as long as it is not a Nikkah. In the Elegal concept of marriage they is nothing preventing any 2 people from entering ito a marriage. But a Nikkah is only possible between Male and Female. Sexual relationships are only permitted between 2 people that have an agreed upon Nikkah. (My error for not being clearer in my previous post.



Now if Shariah is actually being followed, it should be impossible to prove if any consenting adults are engaged in sexual relations as proof require a minimum of 4 eye witnesses each seeing the exact same act at the same time and able to describe it in full detail.
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Old 06-22-2016, 05:20 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 757,561 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I have no issue with a "Gay Marriage" as long as it is not a Nikkah. In the Elegal concept of marriage they is nothing preventing any 2 people from entering ito a marriage. But a Nikkah is only possible between Male and Female. Sexual relationships are only permitted between 2 people that have an agreed upon Nikkah. (My error for not being clearer in my previous post.
OK, so everything I said stands. In Islam, if 2 gay men have a sexual relationship they are evil. Even if they want to be married, they cannot be married, so any sex between same sex couples is evil and punishable.

Again:

To act in accord with your nature is evil when it harms no one else? Hogwash!

Yes, a homosexual rape is evil. So is a heterosexual rape. It is the act of rape, the initiation of force that is evil.

Between two CONSENTING adults....mind your own business. And no, the issue is not just sex outside marriage. After reading the quran and hadiths and shariah only a fool would swallow that.

Look, the quran and hadiths and shariah all incite hatred of homosexuals. It's there for all to see. That is the cause. The effect is Orlando and other slaughter and torture of homosexuals by Muslims. Cause and effect.

Homosexuality is not a moral issue. A homosexual can follow all appropriate moral values: honesty, productivity, rationality, courage, self worth, justice, individual rights.... Homosexuality is NOT an evil ideology like islam where moral values are terrorism, hate, beating women, slaughter of disbelievers, sex with children, rape, slavery ... all sorts of initiation of force, etc.

Can you imagine if heterosexualness was considered evil and punishable by death? What fresh hell would humans go through knowing they could never have romantic love and it's ultimate consummation. This is the kind of hell Islam submits homosexuals to. Misery. Hate. Torture. Death. For being who you are and loving who you love!

Muhammed rapes a 4th grader and the quran OK's mass rape with slaves and captives and sex with children.

It's the INITIATION OF FORCE that is evil! And Islam is all about INITIATION OF FORCE.
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Old 06-22-2016, 09:42 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,597,945 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Blah, blah, blah!

ALL humans are born with potential to do evil acts as well as do good acts. Actions is triggered by their brains.
You are still ignorant of your own brain and how it works from day one. I told you to do your self justice by educating yourself on the anatomy and workings of the brain.

Quote:
And brain will not trigger either good or evil action unless triggered by experience; external element/factor. This is why it is often said that we humans are products of our experiences.
You only see one perspectives and there are many. Note the main perspectives, i.e. concepts of nature and nurture.
1. Nature [hardwired] means one is born with traits from the DNA or in the brain.
2. Nurture means how the brain and human nature are influenced by one's parental, family, clan, social and other environments.

Both perspectives, i.e. nature and nurture are important factors but the most critical is the 'nature' elements because these elements are embedded [hardwired] in the brain and are not influenced by one's later experiences at all.
These 'nature' elements are those elements a person are born with and are difficult to change.
Note for example color blindness in SOME people which is a deviation from norm. Those people who suffer from color blindness are not influenced by experiences. Another example I gave is Synesthesia, i.e. a cross wirings of the various human senses.
The above are related to the physical world but it is the same with the mental world where people are born with evil tendencies due to nature, homosexuality, psychopathy and all sort of mental deviations from the norm.

Therefore a person who has certain very strong impulse due to deviated wirings, e.g. homosexuality, psychopathy, etc. will gravitate towards those impulses spontaneously as driven significantly by these inherent tendencies rather than their experiences. Because these tendencies are inherent, these people will find it difficult to control these impulses because the impulses are too strong to handle.

Therefore those homosexual [high degree] driven by their nature embedded [hardwired] elements are not influenced significantly by their experiences.


Quote:
You cannot argue one way for SOME Muslims doing evil acts being influenced by the external factors and then flip over and argue differently for the homosexuals doing their acts not being influenced by the external factors.
You missed my points.
Where did I state for SOME Muslims doing evil acts being influenced [totally] by the external factors.
I have always stated [perhaps > hundred times in this forum];

ALL humans has the POTENTIAL to be evil and 20% of ALL Muslims [as with all humans] has active evil tendencies.

Note and remember that.
Then it is the external factor of Islam and the Quran that influenced and inspired SOME Muslims who are unfortunately born with evil tendencies to commit terrible evils and violence.

It is the same for those with highly driven homosexuality based on nature [not nurture] who will have spontaneously homosexual tendencies due to what was embedded in the brain during the development of the fetus and at birth. Their homosexual impulse is so strong they will find ways and means to act out their homosexuality.

So note, my focus is on homosexuality, i.e. those who are unfortunate to have their sexual/pleasure wirings crossed and ended up as born homosexual [strong drive].

Quote:
In fact if you read your argument carefully, you are telling me that their brains are getting cross wired when attracted by another of the same sex. It is still the external factor rather than their brain being different from other humans' brain.
Again you missed my point. I don't think my presentation was that bad. This is due to your lack of education on this knowledge and human nature.

The sequence is this;
1. Homosexuals' wirings are 'wrongly' connected during their fetal development.
2. They are born with strong homosexual potential in their brain.
3. This cross-wrings present a strong tendencies for them to be homosexual.
4. After birth, when they are sufficiently developed they are attracted to the same sex.

Therefore my point is homosexuals [strong drive] are born with a brain that has strong potential for homosexuality and there is nothing they can do about it, except perhaps commit suicide as their best alternative.
The external factors and life experiences in this case [strong homosexuality] is secondary.

Quote:
You cannot argue that their brains are different rather than it is the external factor in each case.
Why not?
I have presented my arguments above.
It is a fact and well researched, there are many humans who are born with brains that are different from the majority.
Read up and research on this to upgrade your knowledge of human nature.

Quote:
It is the experiences that create differences in various personalities and their actions begin to vary, triggered by the external factors. Controlling one's impulses under various situations and when faced with various attractions/triggering-factors is known in Islam as controlling one's Self. This is the major jihad in one's life. The Qur'an has taught me how to do this jihad by controlling my Self.
When you insist experiences [nurture] is the ONLY factor that influence human behaviors that are on the " extreme" you are really insulting your own intelligence and reflect laziness to learn and upgrade your knowledge base. This is actually the psychology of believers, they MUST be ignorant of more knowledge that are likely to expose the lies they clung on to like there is no tomorrow.

It is NOT easy to control one's impulse if the homosexuality and other deviated elements in one's brain are 'hardwired' in the brain from birth. It may be easier of the homosexual elements are 50/50 and significantly due to influence by one's environment.

Control of one's impulse is one of the main purpose in all religions and spirituality. From my research of all main religions and spirituality, Islam [overall] is the least effective from the majority of Muslims to control their impulses especially the core impulse [existential] where it matters most. Islam's main approach is based on issuing threats and triggering primal fears in Muslims which is a hindrance and anti- to the control of one's core existential impulses. This weakness in Islam results in SOME Muslims committing terrible evils and violence around the world.

Quote:
Your argument is not that their brains are different than the heterosexuals' brains but that their brains work differently due to the external factors. In other words, the same brain can be triggered one way or the other under given situation and circumstance. This is why a heterosexual can also be homosexual. All have potential and ability to be both. External factor will decide which action they will do in various situations.
I have argued why you are wrong with your focus on external factors.
A homosexual with a strong homosexual cross wirings will never be a natural heterosexual. For a strong young male homosexual, even if you put a naked Miss Universe with open legs in front of him, he will never ever get stimulated and an erection. Get this?

Quote:
Lot's people were slaves of their experience and not that they could not have sex with females. They were perverted by seeing others doing such acts and they all got on to the same bandwagon.
You are so ignorant of human nature.
The majority of males or females would never prefer sex with the same sex personally because there is an instinct to be averse [disgust] to it no matter how open are homosexual activities. Note the disgust is instinctual and hardwired. If this is not present, it is possible for the human species to be extinct or reduced to a risky level.
Research [I have done extensive reading on them, btw I am a very voracious reader and have great thirst for whatever knowledge ] has also shown there is a natural instincts disgust and aversion for incest and other extremes.

The primary reason as I have explained, based on the principles of the Normal Distribution, there will always [past, present, and future] be a percentile of hardwired [crossed] homosexuals.
Due to a lack of moral and peer pressure these hardwired homosexuals would be unhindered to carry out their acts freely [like the Greeks and Roman in the early centuries]. These hardwired homosexuals and the unhindered acts then influenced those with 50/50s homosexual tendencies to join them plus others for social reasons.

Last edited by Continuum; 06-22-2016 at 09:52 PM..
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