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Old 06-25-2016, 02:32 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here is an interesting perspective to what is termed Islamic 'defense.'

What is to be noted is the concept of 'defense' or self-defense is different from the Western Concept of defense.

Quote:
As a Hanafi jurist, Brohi
maintains that the only lawful basis for Muslim countries to conduct military operations
is in furtherance of bringing Islam to the world. As such, Hanafi law characterizes
Islamic warfare in defensive terms that protects the mission of Islam from the world of
unbelief and war:
The wars in the theory of Islamic law are in the nature of an undertaking to advance
Allah s purpose on earth and invariably they are defensive in character.

It is the duty of a
believer to carry forward the Message of Allah and to bring it to the notice of his fellow
men in handsome ways. But if something attempts to obstruct him from doing so he is
entitled, as a measure of defence, to retaliate.574 (Emphasis added)
This use of the term defensive may seem inconsistent with more traditional
understandings of the term as used in the West.
Brohi expands on the Islamic concept of
defensive warfare and in so doing disambiguates between the Islamic and Western use
of the term:
Similarly, when a believer sees that someone is trying to obstruct another believer from
traveling on the road that leads to Allah, spirit of Jehad requires that such a man who is
imposing obstacles should be prevented from doing so and the obstacles placed before
him should be removed, so that mankind may freely be able to negotiate its own path that
leads to Heaven. To omit to do this is a culpable omission, if only because by not
striving to clear or straighten the path we become passive spectators of the counterinitiatory
forces imposing a blockade in the way of those who mean to keep their faith
with Allah.575 (Emphasis added)
Hence, defensive jihad may include activities that some non-believers may more
readily associate with offensive activities -- or at least not purely defensive ones. By way
of example, from a Western perspective, taking hostages and threatening to execute them
if the French Government does not remove its no-scarves-in class law may appear as an
offensive act of terrorist coercion to Westerners and yet a Muslim could reasonably
characterize that same act, according to Brohi, as defending the straight path of Islam by
removing obstructions and obstacles that impair believers. In this context, a jihad
that strikes out in defense of what is right according to Islamic doctrine qualifies as a
defensive act. As discussed in the thesis, for Shafi i, Nyazee, and the Umdat al-Salik,
jihad to straighten the path is a duty for which the failure to perform is a culpable
omission. Brohi is emphatic on this point:
The justification for waging war in defence of what is right is that, he who is in the right,
if he goes to war with the purist of intentions, will be assisted by the Lord to prevail
against those who having defied God s law have virtually created chaos in the land -- for
God doth not love the mischief makers.576
Claims that Islam embarks on jihad for defensive purposes should be assessed in
light of a taxonomy that defines basic terms differently. In the Islamic taxonomy, a jihad
conducted to secure Islam s rightful status as the law of the land -- in all lands -- can be
assessed as defensive. This understanding is not unique to Brohi but rather finds support
reaching as far back as the original Islamic treatment on international policy, as recorded
in al-Shaybani s 8th Century Hanafi treatise Islamic Law of Nations (Shaybani s Siyar).
In the translator s commentary, Majid Khadduri explains that defensive jihad is
conducted in furtherance of an Islamic notion of peace that can only be realized when the
entire world is transformed to the dar al-Islam:
The state of war should, accordingly, come to an end when the dar-al-harb had
disappeared. At such a stage the dar al-Islam, as the abode of peace, would reign
supreme in the world. It may be argued, therefore, that the ultimate objective of Islam is
the achievement of permanent peace rather than the perpetuation of war. Thus the jihad,
in Islamic theory, was a temporary legal device designed to achieve Islam s ideal public
order by transforming the dar al-harb into the dar al-Islam.577
An Islamic concept of defense is put in the service of Islamic notions of peace.

Islamic concepts of war and peace do not appear to be based on the current situation but rather on a realized future end state. In other words, jihad defends the established future end state (the dar al-Islam)
from events today (actions that sustain the dar al-harb) that impede its realization.
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Old 06-25-2016, 04:33 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is an interesting perspective to what is termed Islamic 'defense.'

What is to be noted is the concept of 'defense' or self-defense is different from the Western Concept of defense.
Although the term ' defense' in Islam is always to do with defending when 'attacked', the point your are making about Islam in relation to the assumed Western Concept of defense is no different in theory. Here is my point:

Theoretically, the point made by you about Islam in creating 'peace' is no different from Western Concept of creating 'peace' with first killing thousands of people with dropping atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki or attacking Iraq to create 'peace' by furthering cause of Western democracy.

In reality, the four Islamic points to note from the Qur'an are, (1) not enforcing religion on others, (2) creating peace, (3) fighting in defense and (4) limited retaliation:

1. No compulsion in religion (the Qur'an 2:256)

2. If they incline to peace, you incline to peace (the Qur'an 8:61)

3. Fighting by Muslims (in defense) was ordained for the very first time in a situation when they were attacked first (9:13)

4. "inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you" (2:194)

With the first one, there is no compulsion in religion both ways. With the second, a Muslim must incline to peace if others (including unbelievers) incline to peace in any situation. With the third, fighting is only in defense when we have been attacked first. We are not to attack first. and with the fourth, retaliation is limited to one slap for one slap and killing one of the kuffar if one Muslim is killed by the kuffar. We can't kill two kuffar for one killed Muslim.
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Old 06-25-2016, 11:24 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Although the term ' defense' in Islam is always to do with defending when 'attacked', the point your are making about Islam in relation to the assumed Western Concept of defense is no different in theory. Here is my point:

Theoretically, the point made by you about Islam in creating 'peace' is no different from Western Concept of creating 'peace' with first killing thousands of people with dropping atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki or attacking Iraq to create 'peace' by furthering cause of Western democracy.

In reality, the four Islamic points to note from the Qur'an are, (1) not enforcing religion on others, (2) creating peace, (3) fighting in defense and (4) limited retaliation:

1. No compulsion in religion (the Qur'an 2:256)

2. If they incline to peace, you incline to peace (the Qur'an 8:61)

3. Fighting by Muslims (in defense) was ordained for the very first time in a situation when they were attacked first (9:13)

4. "inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you" (2:194)

With the first one, there is no compulsion in religion both ways. With the second, a Muslim must incline to peace if others (including unbelievers) incline to peace in any situation. With the third, fighting is only in defense when we have been attacked first. We are not to attack first. and with the fourth, retaliation is limited to one slap for one slap and killing one of the kuffar if one Muslim is killed by the kuffar. We can't kill two kuffar for one killed Muslim.
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them (9:5)
The words, “when the forbidden months are past,” precludes the possibility that this was a matter of self-defense.

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."
Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."

Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)

"Allah's Messenger said, 'Two deens [religion] shall not co-exist in the Arabian Peninsula,' and he therefore expelled the Jews from Khaybar." (Malik 45:18)

Quran 7:4 And how many cities have We destroyed, and Our punishment came to them at night or while they were sleeping at noon.

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.

Quran (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).

Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that unbelievers are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter.

Quran 17:16 And when We intend to destroy a city, We command its affluent but they defiantly disobey therein; so the word comes into effect upon it, and We destroy it with [complete] destruction.

Quran (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..."

Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost."

Quran (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"

Quran (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom."

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

Quran (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His cause" The verse explicitly refers to "rows" or "battle array," meaning that it is speaking of physical conflict. This is followed by (61:9), which defines the "cause": "He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist." (See next verse, below). Infidels who resist Islamic rule are to be fought.

Quran (61:10-12) - "O You who believe! Shall I guide you to a commerce that will save you from a painful torment. That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know! (If you do so) He will forgive you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and pleasant dwelling in Gardens of'Adn- Eternity ['Adn(Edn) Paradise], that is indeed the great success." This verse refers to physical battle in order to make Islam victorious over other religions.

Quran (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."

Bukhari (11:626) - [Muhammad said:] "I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes."

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992: - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad

"164 Jihad Verses in the Koran -- Passages in the Quran about Islamic Holy War" compiled by Yoel Natan

Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years.
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Old 06-25-2016, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Although the term ' defense' in Islam is always to do with defending when 'attacked', the point your are making about Islam in relation to the assumed Western Concept of defense is no different in theory. Here is my point:

Theoretically, the point made by you about Islam in creating 'peace' is no different from Western Concept of creating 'peace' with first killing thousands of people with dropping atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki or attacking Iraq to create 'peace' by furthering cause of Western democracy.

In reality, the four Islamic points to note from the Qur'an are, (1) not enforcing religion on others, (2) creating peace, (3) fighting in defense and (4) limited retaliation:

1. No compulsion in religion (the Qur'an 2:256)

2. If they incline to peace, you incline to peace (the Qur'an 8:61)

3. Fighting by Muslims (in defense) was ordained for the very first time in a situation when they were attacked first (9:13)

4. "inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you" (2:194)

With the first one, there is no compulsion in religion both ways. With the second, a Muslim must incline to peace if others (including unbelievers) incline to peace in any situation. With the third, fighting is only in defense when we have been attacked first. We are not to attack first. and with the fourth, retaliation is limited to one slap for one slap and killing one of the kuffar if one Muslim is killed by the kuffar. We can't kill two kuffar for one killed Muslim.
The dropping of the atomic bomb did stop the Japanese imperialism and therefrom peace. But such an act is different from the Islamic notion of peace.

The point is within the doctrine of Islam, Islam by default is always in a state of being attacked by the 'infidels' [kuffar, non-Muslims]. Therefore to have peace for Islam is to ensure Islam dominate every human being on Earth.

Note this point from the above article;

Quote:
This understanding is not unique to Brohi but rather finds support reaching as far back as the original Islamic treatment on international policy, as recorded in al-Shaybani's 8th Century Hanafi treatise Islamic Law of Nations (Shaybani's Siyar).
In the translator's commentary, Majid Khadduri explains that defensive jihad is conducted in furtherance of an Islamic notion of peace that can only be realized when the entire world is transformed to the dar al-Islam:
The state of war should, accordingly, come to an end when the dar-al-harb had disappeared. At such a stage the dar al-Islam, as the abode of peace, would reign supreme in the world. It may be argued, therefore, that the ultimate objective of Islam is the achievement of permanent peace rather than the perpetuation of war. Thus the jihad, in Islamic theory, was a temporary legal device designed to achieve Islam s ideal public order by transforming the dar al-harb into the dar al-Islam.577
An Islamic concept of defense is put in the service of Islamic notions of peace.
Here is one verse [amongst many other chauvinistic, arrogant and domineering verse]
9:33. He [Allah] it is who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion [wadeeni] of Truth, that He [Allah] may cause it [Islam] to prevail over all religion [alddeeni], however much the idolaters [infidels] may be averse.
Note:
For the whole of the main Quran [Pickthall] I am reading I have put in [] the specific name for ALL pronouns so it is easy to read and know the pronoun refer to specifically, e.g. He [Allah], they [Christians], they [Jews] they[infidels], them [Muslims] etc.
In addition I have put into [] the relevant Arabic word.
In addition I have included lots of notes and links with the Quran I am reading.
The above involved a lot of work because I have to do it for each of the 6,236 verses where relevant.
You may say whatever you want of my understanding of the Quran which I don't give a dam hoot about. I maintain my own personal intellectual standard and credibility by doing what is necessary to be professional and objective.

Last edited by Continuum; 06-25-2016 at 09:41 PM..
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Old 06-25-2016, 11:31 PM
 
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War in Islam is not a defensive war

But an offensive war

For the word fought
It is one of orders
It is meant to continue and not specific to a time and place

Islamic conquests is offensive wars
The invasion of Andalus offensive wars
Ottoman wars
Offensive wars

Because it is linked to a central aim of which is that Islam is the master of the world
This is a central goal
It uses all means

Pious and immigration
Prosecution cover moderate Islam

Bosnia and Herzegovina modern model

Each country enters Islam
Muslim be peaceful
When breed
It moves to the stage to claim special rights
Then Adgo to the application of Sharia
And then demanding the government and impose ordinances

So it is not a religious moral
But a political approach
The military and colonial

Islamic wars did not reject the spoils
Islamic wars enslaved people
So offensive war is not only in the battle
But in creating Accessories victory in every battle

This is what tends to him by Muslims in Europe
Prepare the ground has a foothold
They move to the active phase
This is what will happen in Europe
Because they are mistakes in the calculation of the equation
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Old 06-26-2016, 12:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The dropping of the atomic bomb did stop the Japanese imperialism and therefrom peace. But such an act is different from the Islamic notion of peace.
For you, it has to be different. But it is not different if thousands have to be killed first for peace.

Quote:
The point is within the doctrine of Islam, Islam by default is always in a state of being attacked by the 'infidels' [kuffar, non-Muslims]. Therefore to have peace for Islam is to ensure Islam dominate every human being on Earth.
That is doing fantastic mental gymnastics just to make your point about Islam tries to ensure dominating every human being on earth. It could not be further from the truth. This is how you completely ignore the guidance of the Qur'an, "if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah" (8:61). The kuffar had been attacking Muslims for about 20 years until they inclined to peace. Muslims too inclined to peace with those kuffar who were attacking Muslims.

Quote:
Here is one verse [amongst many other chauvinistic, arrogant and domineering verse]
9:33. He [Allah] it is who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion [wadeeni] of Truth, that He [Allah] may cause it [Islam] to prevail over all religion [alddeeni], however much the idolaters [infidels] may be averse.
First of all, "deen" in Arabic does not mean "religion". In Arabic, "madhhab" is "religion". Deen is the Way and Judgment of Allah. It is the Way a Muslim should live his life on earth. The reference to prevailing over other way was prevailing over the way of idol worshiping in Makkah and Madina where the Qur'an was being revealed; the reason idolaters (muskrikeen) are mentioned in the verse to be averse to Allah's guidance. No other group is mentioned in the verse except idolaters (mushrikeen). Non-Muslims are not all mushrikeen (idolaters). So your including non-Muslims with kuffar as infidels in the previous statement is not very intelligent.

Quote:
Note:
For the whole of the main Quran [Pickthall] I am reading I have put in [] the specific name for ALL pronouns so it is easy to read and know the pronoun refer to specifically, e.g. He [Allah], they [Christians], they [Jews] they[infidels], them [Muslims] etc.
Infidels is a word used by Christians during their crusades against Muslims. The crusaders were regarding Muslims "infidels". In Islamic term, Idol worshipers or idolaters are called "Mushrikeen" (worshipers of more than one god) in the Qur'an. Jews and Christians are never called Mushrikeen in the Qur'an.

Quote:
In addition I have put into [] the relevant Arabic word.
In the verse 9:33 that you have quoted above with Arabic in [], [infidel] and [Islam] are not there in the verse in Arabic. You needed to put "deen" and "mushrikeen" in [] in place of "Islam" and "infidel" in [].

Quote:
In addition I have included lots of notes and links with the Quran I am reading.
The above involved a lot of work because I have to do it for each of the 6,236 verses where relevant.
Judging by your quoting just one verse (9:33) here, I can well imagine how many more mistakes you must have made with other verses.

Quote:
You may say whatever you want of my understanding of the Quran which I don't give a dam hoot about. I maintain my own personal intellectual standard and credibility by doing what is necessary to be professional and objective.
You will never understand the Qur'an until you give a dam hoot about what I am saying to you about your mistakes about the Qur'an.
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Old 06-26-2016, 02:33 PM
 
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[quote=Khalif;44552528]For you, it has to be different. But it is not different if thousands have to be killed first for peace.

Quote:
That is doing fantastic mental gymnastics just to make your point about Islam tries to ensure dominating every human being on earth. It could not be further from the truth. This is how you completely ignore the guidance of the Qur'an, "if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah" (8:61). The kuffar had been attacking Muslims for about 20 years until they inclined to peace. Muslims too inclined to peace with those kuffar who were attacking Muslims.
do not swerving to peace فلا تهنوا وتدعوا إلى السلم and you Aloallon(You Top) and God is with you and will not Iturkm deeds (35))surat -mohammed


This verse contrasts with that verse
If you were the victors do not swerving to peace
Read the verse well and understand her words from Arabic
and This from explanations Muslims
Yunus told me he said: Tell us the son of the donation, said: Ibn Zaid said, in saying (be not slack so as to cry for peace and you Aloallon)You Top)( said: This is a cancelled , said: cancelled by the fighting and Jihad, says: You do not weaken and inviting you to peace and you are higher, he said: This while the covenants and the truce between him and the idolaters before the fighting, he says: Do not waver weakening, you see that you are calling for peace and you're above it, and cherished it (and you Aloallon) you are the dearest of them, and then the fighting came after Vensch this whole, ordered him Abjahadhm and cruelty on them
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Old 06-26-2016, 02:36 PM
 
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surat mohammed 35

Be not slack so as to cry for peace and you Aloallon and God is with you and will not Iturkm deeds (35))And saying (and to cry for peace and you Aloallon) says: Do not Tdafoa them and invite them to the peace and peaceful, and you oppressors them and Alon them (and God is with you) says: God is with you and you them victory.
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Old 06-26-2016, 02:45 PM
 
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Interpretation of the verse, "If they incline to peace, incline, and trust in God that he is the Hearing, the Knowing."

Differed in this verse, they are abrogated or not. He said Qatada and Ikrima: abrogated "then kill the idolaters wherever ye find" [repentance: 5]. "Fight the polytheists all" [repentance: 36] and said, innocence abrogated all Moadeh, until they say there is no god but Allah. Ibn Abbas: duplicator her "be not slack so as to cry peace," [Muhammad: 35]. It was: has not been abrogated, but wanted to accept tribute from the people of tribute

This interpretation of Muslim Scholars

So we understand the Koran

Muslim scholars
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Old 06-26-2016, 02:53 PM
 
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to--
Khalif -read this
muslem opinions

God bless you and the Todahatk like to add the following:
To understand this verse true understanding it must be linked with verses before the verse (the worst of beasts
God who disbelieve understand ........ do not believe they will not be wronged) From this we conclude that Yai:
1. infidels are the worst of beasts for delaying their minds to reflect on God's creatures to reach a creator and mastermind of faith in him.
2. nature aside covenants and conventions Vigilance them duty at all times.
3. must be beaten at the meeting in the war severe blows to terrorize even heard of them to discourage them from Maltvkir attacking Muslims.
4. must be wary of covenanters from the infidels from Nfdahm Testament when the Muslims felt that the infidels want to think or to veto Testament and the Muslims start to cancel covenant with them and inform them that the Covenant has been abolished nor permissible for the Muslims of their treachery.
4. Muslims should prepare every weapon terrorize the infidels of God's enemies and the enemies of Muslims, the apparent and hidden the basic principle is that the military industry is based industries are Muslims.
After all of the above if the infidels asked Magistrate of the Muslims was the interest of the Muslims may answer their request to hold a temporary truce as the Permanent Magistrates may not be because it disrupts the Jihad and stop carrying the call to the world and this is not permissible.
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