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Old 07-25-2016, 05:11 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 766,532 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
I am a critic of all religions. I am most critical of Islam because of the size of its membership and the level of problems its doctrine cause globally. But criticizing an ideology, especially a religious ideology, is kind of tricky. I turn thumbs down on any religious criticism that just barks out some thoughtless pronouncement, something like "Islam is for morons". There is no reasoning there. I figure it must be a 14 year-old shouting mindlessly via a computer keyboard. Then there are those who are critical of Muslims more than the religious belief. I give those a big thumbs down and usually a response, for they express bigotry. Then there are those people who are on the other side of the coin. They think that a criticism of Islam is a criticism of Muslims. They too get the Galileo Smith thumbs down and often a response. Ideologies are fair game be they a political party, a social organization like Greenpeace, or a religion. It's generally hands off their peaceful, law-abiding followers.
My question is....how is it possible for good people choose to follow evil ideologies?

Did good people choose to love and follow Hitler and his ideology? Do good people choose to hold Charles Manson as their perfect example of conduct?

What people choose to follow as their ideology, their philosophy, their religion (and Islam is an ideology)....IS the essence of that person. It represents their beliefs, their moral values, how they think, how they gain and validate their knowledge, how they relate to reality. Certainly you can judge people on their ideology. I judge NAMBLA members to be bad people. I judge the people who admired and followed Stalin to be bad people. Yes, there are people, many of them, who are a mix of good and bad. But there is so much evil in Islam and Islam is so unchangeable that it is not a mixed bag. Mass rape, terrorism, slaughter, torture, slavery, theft, pedophilia, etc...Islam is the worst of the worst.

"The precept: “Judge not, that ye be not judged” . . . is an abdication of moral responsibility: it is a moral blank check one gives to others in exchange for a moral blank check one expects for oneself.

There is no escape from the fact that men have to make choices; so long as men have to make choices, there is no escape from moral values; so long as moral values are at stake, no moral neutrality is possible. To abstain from condemning a torturer, is to become an accessory to the torture and murder of his victims.

The moral principle to adopt in this issue, is: “Judge, and be prepared to be judged.”

_Ayn Rand
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Old 07-25-2016, 05:22 PM
 
Location: Here
1,706 posts, read 1,510,859 times
Reputation: 1352
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
My question is....how is it possible for good people choose to follow evil ideologies?

Did good people choose to love and follow Hitler and his ideology? Do good people choose to hold Charles Manson as their perfect example of conduct?

What people choose to follow as their ideology, their philosophy, their religion (and Islam is an ideology)....IS the essence of that person. It represents their beliefs, their moral values, how they think, how they gain and validate their knowledge, how they relate to reality. Certainly you can judge people on their ideology. I judge NAMBLA members to be bad people. I judge the people who admired and followed Stalin to be bad people. Yes, there are people, many of them, who are a mix of good and bad. But there is so much evil in Islam and Islam is so unchangeable that it is not a mixed bag. Mass rape, terrorism, slaughter, torture, slavery, theft, pedophilia, etc...Islam is the worst of the worst.

"The precept: “Judge not, that ye be not judged” . . . is an abdication of moral responsibility: it is a moral blank check one gives to others in exchange for a moral blank check one expects for oneself.

There is no escape from the fact that men have to make choices; so long as men have to make choices, there is no escape from moral values; so long as moral values are at stake, no moral neutrality is possible. To abstain from condemning a torturer, is to become an accessory to the torture and murder of his victims.

The moral principle to adopt in this issue, is: “Judge, and be prepared to be judged.”

_Ayn Rand
So, let's take the Christian religion, for example. It declares that a non virgin bride should be stoned on her father's doorstep. Those working on the Sabbath should be killed. It's right there in the Bible. Not many Christians believe that stuff anymore yet they call themselves Christians. Christianity, and Islam, can be any ideology a person wants it to be. It comes down to what passages are going to be accepted and which are not, which are to be taken literally and which are are to be considered metaphorical. And then there is the matter of translation and interpretation of those passages. Unfortunately, as of 2016, a rather unfortunate number of Muslims globally believe that various Islamic doctrine are to be taken literally, and with a violent interpretation. All that explains why I tend to criticize Islamic dogma more than I do other religious beliefs. It is also explains why I do not target either individual Christians, or Muslims for their manner of religious belief. I simply do not know what their manner of religious belief is.
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Old 07-25-2016, 06:04 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 766,532 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
So, let's take the Christian religion, for example. It declares that a non virgin bride should be stoned on her father's doorstep. Those working on the Sabbath should be killed. It's right there in the Bible. Not many Christians believe that stuff anymore yet they call themselves Christians. Christianity, and Islam, can be any ideology a person wants it to be. It comes down to what passages are going to be accepted and which are not, which are to be taken literally and which are are to be considered metaphorical. And then there is the matter of translation and interpretation of those passages. Unfortunately, as of 2016, a rather unfortunate number of Muslims globally believe that various Islamic doctrine are to be taken literally, and with a violent interpretation. All that explains why I tend to criticize Islamic dogma more than I do other religious beliefs. It is also explains why I do not target either individual Christians, or Muslims for their manner of religious belief. I simply do not know what their manner of religious belief is.
Yes, a lot of stuff in the bible is evil. But there is also all that altruistic stuff and bit about loving your enemy and turning the other cheek and the no killing, etc. The more evil stuff is almost all in the OLD Testament. Christians tend to follow the NEW Testament, where Christ came along. (I am an atheist, btw)

So Christians are given a lot of moral wiggle room.

Do you understand about abrogation in the quran?

I talked to over 3,000 Muslims to find out what they thought. I read the quran and hadiths. The quran is packed full of hate and 'them against us' mentality. Allah relentlessly talks about how he will be doing terrible torture to all disbelievers...and this is supposedly his direct word.

Qur’an 22:19-22 “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

Muslims use the excuse of translation and which passages to accept all the time, and they are false excuses. The quran in it's entirety is supposedly the word of allah and not a menu. Arabic certainly can be translated.

Muslims defend every evil in Islam. Slavery, mass rape, Muhammed's sex with a child, and much more. NOT ONE will say that Muhammed was bad to do these evil things. One Muslim here suggested that after Muhammed and his gang attacked a village and slaughtered the men and boys and then let his gang rape the women....that the women wanted to be raped by the men who just slaughtered their husbands, fathers, brothers, sons....much like women are hot for the winning sports team.

The same Muslim says that disbelievers deserve the endless horrible torture described above because allah warned us. So now it is like if we walk down a dark street after being warned not to do so....we deserve to be robbed and slaughtered....but remember that the one who robs and slaughters us is the one who warned us so the robber/murderer is perfect and we deserve what we get.

Also remember that no terrorist works in a vacuum. There are many supporters and financers and Muslims who kept their mouths shut and mosques who taught them hate and the celebrators after the terrorism is done.
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Old 07-25-2016, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,421,394 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
mahasn sawresho,

What do you mean by "integrate"?

What do Muslims have to do to "integrate" into Western societies?

Give me a few lessons so that I can "integrate" into the Western society in which I have been living for more than half a century.

.................................................. .................................................. ..............

Woodrow LI,

Is this guy, mahasn sawresho, making no sense or you and I can never integrate into a Western society?

I give Mahasn the benefit of doubt. I do not believe he understands English very well and is using an online translation to translate his replies into English and does not realize, they do not make sense and are not understandable.


As for us integrating into Western Society, Muslims have a very long History in the Western world and at one point much of Europe had a large Muslim presence. There was peaceful coexistence in Lithuania. Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Albania, Yugoslavia and Hungary. Even fighting AGAINST the Ottoman Empire when Turkey attempted to conquer Europe.


These lasted until the "Crusades of the North" when most European Muslims were exiled, killed or forced to Accept Catholicism.


History tends to shy away from the previous Muslim presence in Europe including Sweden Denmark, Finland, Norway, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland etc. and that Islam predated Christianity in those Nations until the "Crusades of the North" when Christianity obliterated most of the Muslim and Pagan presence


Northern Crusades - Crusades Wiki - Wikia


Short Visit. Lithuanian Tatars


I believe much of the problem is because Christians believe Muslims will do to non-Muslims what Christians did to non-Christians. Europe and the Americas did not become Christian by choice nor did they convert peacefully.


CONVERT TO CHRISTIANITY OR DIE
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Old 07-25-2016, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,619,718 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
I am a critic of all religions. I am most critical of Islam because of the size of its membership and the level of problems its doctrine cause globally. But criticizing an ideology, especially a religious ideology, is kind of tricky.

I turn thumbs down on any religious criticism that just barks out some thoughtless pronouncement, something like "Islam is for morons". There is no reasoning there. I figure it must be a 14 year-old shouting mindlessly via a computer keyboard.
Then there are those who are critical of Muslims more than the religious belief. I give those a big thumbs down and usually a response, for they express bigotry.

Then there are those people who are on the other side of the coin. They think that a criticism of Islam is a criticism of Muslims. They too get the Galileo Smith thumbs down and often a response.

Ideologies are fair game be they a political party, a social organization like Greenpeace, or a religion. It's generally hands off their peaceful, law-abiding followers.
I agree with your points.

I believe there is a lot of criticisms of Islam is due to this very frightening statistic and trend [28,876]*,
I think it was somewhere 20,000++ a few years ago.
*This total need to be filtered to sieve out the critical evil committed by SOME evil prone Muslims who are inspired by evil laden verses in the Quran.



I noted almost all the popular anti-Muslim sites based on their criticisms on facts and evidences of evils, brutalities, violence as reported in the reputable News media and not based on their own imaginations and inventions.
Here is one example of a reputable site;
Islam: The Politically Incorrect Truth
Note: In rare occasion there may be articles that are extreme but that is easily outweighed by the credible articles and facts represented from various sources.

In addition these anti-Muslims sites always refer to verses in the Quran, Ahadith, Sunnah and other references that are adopted. There is so much of such evidence there is no need for them to rely on their own interpretations.
In some occasion some of the anti-Muslims sites may have articles that made rhetorical statements but they are so obvious and can be ignore because any one can refer to the prevalent [almost weekly] real evidences of evil from SOME Muslims.


What is intellectually dishonest is there are many Muslims who are accusing these sites who criticized based on facts as Islamophobic and Islam-haters when in fact it is Islam [in-part] and SOME Muslims who are spreading 'hatred' and real evils.
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Old 07-25-2016, 11:55 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 679,240 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Although the demographics are changing the majority of American Muslims were born here and have ancestors here dating back to before the Civil War and earlier. Very few American Muslims have any ties to Saudi or the Mideast. Most (about 2/3 ) Arab Americans are Christian, not Muslim.
The term Arab Christians are not true Christians in the Middle East are considered to be the country's aboriginal people \
Iraqi Assyrians or Chaldeans or Srianyen
The Egyptian Coptic Pharaohs
The Lebanese and Syrian
Sriaon and Armeon
Islam has destroyed those civilizations
We have become displaced in parts of the world because Islam
Islam is colonizing hateful
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Old 07-26-2016, 12:09 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 679,240 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I give Mahasn the benefit of doubt. I do not believe he understands English very well and is using an online translation to translate his replies into English and does not realize, they do not make sense and are not understandable.


As for us integrating into Western Society, Muslims have a very long History in the Western world and at one point much of Europe had a large Muslim presence. There was peaceful coexistence in Lithuania. Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Albania, Yugoslavia and Hungary. Even fighting AGAINST the Ottoman Empire when Turkey attempted to conquer Europe.


These lasted until the "Crusades of the North" when most European Muslims were exiled, killed or forced to Accept Catholicism.


History tends to shy away from the previous Muslim presence in Europe including Sweden Denmark, Finland, Norway, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland etc. and that Islam predated Christianity in those Nations until the "Crusades of the North" when Christianity obliterated most of the Muslim and Pagan presence


Northern Crusades - Crusades Wiki - Wikia


Short Visit. Lithuanian Tatars


I believe much of the problem is because Christians believe Muslims will do to non-Muslims what Christians did to non-Christians. Europe and the Americas did not become Christian by choice nor did they convert peacefully.


CONVERT TO CHRISTIANITY OR DIE
I mean the merger is to accept the State laws in which he resides Muslim
the Muslim does not accept integration into the community
Because it does not recognize the land laws
Always trying to apply the laws of the Koran
And considers it better than the laws of those states
Islam in Europe, it was eliminated after the liberation of Spain from the Muslim invasion
Either Islam and in some other European countries
It is the result of the occupation of Islamic Algosmani
And not a result of accepting Islam
Europeans did not accept Islam because they know it is a religion of backwardness and terror
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Old 07-26-2016, 02:54 AM
 
3,213 posts, read 1,073,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
I mean the merger is to accept the State laws in which he resides Muslim
You are talking nonsense!

I have lived in Western society for more than 50 years and not only accepted the laws there but even complied with them. This has not taken me out of Islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
the Muslim does not accept integration into the community
Because it does not recognize the land laws
I recognize the land laws. Therefore, you are wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
Always trying to apply the laws of the Koran
Such as?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
And considers it better than the laws of those states
Again, that's your ignorance. Many laws of those states are the same as Islamic laws. Why should one consider them as worse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
Islam in Europe, it was eliminated after the liberation of Spain from the Muslim invasion
Europe was backward before Islam came to Europe. Europe learnt from Muslims and improved themselves. They have been improving themselves ever since then whereas Muslims stopped learning more and in many cases went backward. That does not mean Islam was eliminated from Europe. Churches are being converted to Mosques in Europe today as the churches are being deserted due to lack of worshippers. This is more like Christianity being eliminated from Europe mainly by the Atheists and the Secularists. There are churches that are used for both Christian worship and Islamic worship. Muslims and Christians are co-operating with each other quite well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
Either Islam and in some other European countries
It is the result of the occupation of Islamic Algosmani
And not a result of accepting Islam
Europeans did not accept Islam because they know it is a religion of backwardness and terror
Do you live in Europe?
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Old 07-26-2016, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
28,979 posts, read 15,714,541 times
Reputation: 11642
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
So, let's take the Christian religion, for example. It declares that a non virgin bride should be stoned on her father's doorstep. Those working on the Sabbath should be killed. It's right there in the Bible. Not many Christians believe that stuff anymore yet they call themselves Christians. Christianity, and Islam, can be any ideology a person wants it to be. It comes down to what passages are going to be accepted and which are not, which are to be taken literally and which are are to be considered metaphorical. And then there is the matter of translation and interpretation of those passages. Unfortunately, as of 2016, a rather unfortunate number of Muslims globally believe that various Islamic doctrine are to be taken literally, and with a violent interpretation. All that explains why I tend to criticize Islamic dogma more than I do other religious beliefs. It is also explains why I do not target either individual Christians, or Muslims for their manner of religious belief. I simply do not know what their manner of religious belief is.
As a Christian... want to clarify this...

The blue above... does not apply today. Christianity today is not based on the laws for Israel in the Old Testament. It is based on the death of Jesus for the sins of the world, and His physical resurrection to new life with God forever.

Otherwise, this looks like an interesting, constructive thread.

To me as an outsider to Islam, the question is about what Islam is. Is it a peaceful religion being hi-jacked by criminals? Or does the majority subscribe to violence in order to bring about a more Islamic society?
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Old 07-26-2016, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Here
1,706 posts, read 1,510,859 times
Reputation: 1352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
One thing many do not understand, Islam is not organized. Islam is quite individual with no ordained clergy, no religious hierarchy and no central leader. We do not pay dues or tithes to some mysterious chief bigwig, we do not have any central authority that builds Mosques or assigns Imams. Every Muslim has his own personal mosque, which is the area covered by his prayer rug when he prays. No building required. No ordained clergy required as all Muslims are clergy and considered equal. No living Muslim has any religious authority over any other Muslim. The oldest and/or most knowledgeable Sheikh has no more religious authority than a new born baby. But we are Human and among us we do have our share of lazy, worthless idiots that refuse to search and blindly follow vile, evil despots that claim some level of religious leadership. Any Muslim who blindly follows any human religious leader, is an idiot and is not performing Islam, which demands personal responsibility and sincere investigating of what one believes. Islam is not for blind followers or those that do not question all things.
I did not see your post a few days ago on my first run-through, but I'll respond to it now. First, there is no official Islamic hierarchy but there is always going to be the psychological hierarchy. There is no official hierarchy in terms of baseball expertise either, but Joe Buck's opinion is going to get more respect than mine. (That's the best analogy I could come-up with in ten seconds). So Muslims are going to have doctrine interpreted for them by alleged experts and many, and probably most Muslims will adhere to those interpretations.

Also, it looked to me like you stated that Islam implores Muslims to think for themselves. I recently had a discussion with a Muslim who insisted that Islam implores its followers to think open-mindedly. To be honest, I found this claim absolutely astounding. I pointed out to the person that if a Muslim contemplated the origins of his faith, perhaps concluding that Muhammad may have been delusional and made the whole thing up, that the dogma of Islam would see the person as an apostate and worthy of punishment. I have had Muslims vehemently reject the Theory of Evolution because it violated the Quran text of Adam, made from clay by the hand of God. How is Islam allowing opened-mindedness when it intimidates its followers with punishment for doing just that?
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