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Old 07-26-2016, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Here
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
As a Christian... want to clarify this...

The blue above... does not apply today. Christianity today is not based on the laws for Israel in the Old Testament. It is based on the death of Jesus for the sins of the world, and His physical resurrection to new life with God forever.

Otherwise, this looks like an interesting, constructive thread.

To me as an outsider to Islam, the question is about what Islam is. Is it a peaceful religion being hi-jacked by criminals? Or does the majority subscribe to violence in order to bring about a more Islamic society?
As an ex-Christian, I have always felt that the leader and spokesperson of Christianity was Jesus, but the God that was being praised was described in the Old Testament, which would include the Ten Commandments. So if God wants people to be killed for working on the Sabbath, he expresses that in the Old Testament. If that proclamation is null and void, then it has to be specifically stated.
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Old 07-26-2016, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
As a Christian... want to clarify this...

The blue above... does not apply today. Christianity today is not based on the laws for Israel in the Old Testament. It is based on the death of Jesus for the sins of the world, and His physical resurrection to new life with God forever.

Otherwise, this looks like an interesting, constructive thread.

To me as an outsider to Islam, the question is about what Islam is. Is it a peaceful religion being hi-jacked by criminals? Or does the majority subscribe to violence in order to bring about a more Islamic society?
There are about 1.7 Billion of us that claim to be Muslim. We differ considerably and come in every conceivable aspect of humanity as is possible from wanton despots that murder without remorse to ultra pacifists that will not raise a hand against another human, not even in self defense.

Islam is not an organization and does not have any hierarchy of clergy as there are no ordained clergy and all Muslims are clergy. There is no membership.

If one looks closely they may be able to ascertain that virtually every terrorist today has come about as an off-shoot of the militants that were trained to fight the invading Russians in Afghanistan. The media coined the label al-Qaida (The Headquarters or meeting place) for them and used the term Taliban (Arabic word meaning students) for the trainees. The Survivors of those kids have become the Terrorist leaders of today heading up terrorist organizations world wide.
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Old 07-26-2016, 02:33 PM
 
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Imo, the ethos of Islams more about the religion of Islam, and It's prophet, then it is about the actual worship of God. And what logical creator would create human beings, and all there wonders, and then ask women to cover their hair, and shroud their bodies? Do such things really remove lust from the imaginations of men? What sort of God would require his puny human creations to bow down and prostrate to him 5 times a day? And convert all of his creation to this one religion? Then write in his book for his Muslim followers to kill, and strike the necks of those who disobey, or those who are looked at as infidels? What sort of God needs puny humans so desperately? Imo, Islamic terrorists are demons, in human form, as well as those who support them. How can men, with such evil hearts, kill and kill and kill, in the name of any God? There is great beauty in Islam, but the evil committed under the umbrella of Islam, is mind numbing. The world does not look at Islam in a loving light. What kind of utter madness is this religion unleashing upon the earth? Just my own opinions and views. Where is the light of love in the realm of this religion?
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Old 07-26-2016, 03:14 PM
 
3,211 posts, read 1,072,426 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
I did not see your post a few days ago on my first run-through, but I'll respond to it now. First, there is no official Islamic hierarchy but there is always going to be the psychological hierarchy. There is no official hierarchy in terms of baseball expertise either, but Joe Buck's opinion is going to get more respect than mine. (That's the best analogy I could come-up with in ten seconds). So Muslims are going to have doctrine interpreted for them by alleged experts and many, and probably most Muslims will adhere to those interpretations.
That is a good point!

Most Muslims will be learning from "alleged experts" who are often far from being experts. This is result of lack of education in the field of their deen (religion). The "alleged experts" have never passed any formal courses as a qualified teacher does to be able to teach in state schools. I, to this day, have never had any such teacher to teach me about Islam. It is only through my own years of effort to understand the Qur'an that I have managed to understand Islam to my satisfaction.

Quote:
Also, it looked to me like you stated that Islam implores Muslims to think for themselves. I recently had a discussion with a Muslim who insisted that Islam implores its followers to think open-mindedly. To be honest, I found this claim absolutely astounding. I pointed out to the person that if a Muslim contemplated the origins of his faith, perhaps concluding that Muhammad may have been delusional and made the whole thing up, that the dogma of Islam would see the person as an apostate and worthy of punishment.
For a Muslim, origin of his faith is not in thinking about Muhammad making it up or not but whether it makes sense or not and whether it is a new faith or the original faith. Muhammad never claimed it to be a new faith. Muhammad believed it to be extension of the original faith, faith of Abraham and of Noah before him.

Quote:
I have had Muslims vehemently reject the Theory of Evolution because it violated the Quran text of Adam, made from clay by the hand of God.
Such Muslims take a lot of Qur'an text literally and often in isolation of the other verses. My rule in understanding the Qur'an and Islam has been to understand ALL the verses in the Qur'an on the same issue (they are dotted around in the Qur'an instead of in one place only). For this reason, creation of Adam should never be taken literally based on one verse.

[3.59] Surely the likeness of Jesus is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be", and he was.

Did Allah create Jesus from dust like Adam? There is no point in assuming that Jesus was created from dust, like Adam, by the hand of God. It also does not reject Theory of Evolution. Theory of Evolution does not reject dust was origin of man. Indeed, evolution did not occur in a vacuum or from nothing.

Quote:
How is Islam allowing opened-mindedness when it intimidates its followers with punishment for doing just that?
Islam does not do that. Lack of understanding of Islam does it to the alleged followers. A lot of narration in the Qur'an is not literal. Even description of Paradise and Hell is not literal.

Here is another example from the Qur'an on creation of Adam and Jesus respectively:

Creation of Adam,
[15.29] So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down making obeisance to him.

Creation of Jesus,
[4.171] O followers of the Book! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak against Allah, but the truth; the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Mary and a spirit from Him...

In these verses, the emphasis is not on dust but on "Spirit" in creation of Adam and Jesus. Not much is known to man about Spirit of or from God. Therefore, creation of Adam from dust or clay may not be literal. It is possible that man was created from dust but it may have taken a long evolutionary process for him to be complete. It could have been thousands of years of our time in the period man was complete creation.

The same is the case of God creating the universe and whatever is in it in 6 days. 6 days are not our literal 6 days. As the solar system did not exist before the 6 days began, 6 days could not have been earthly 6 days as known to us today but 6 days of God which is 6 periods of unknown length of time to us. Thus it was 6 periods of time rather than 6 of our days in which the universe was created.

Having said that, here are a couple of verses from the Qur'an (3:47 is about Jesus):

[3.47] She said: My Lord! When shall there be a son (born) to me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

[17.85] And they ask you about the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little.


And the question: Man may have been evolved through an evolutionary process but how did the human evolutionary process begin if there was no dust for man's origin?

Yes, "thinking for themselves" and "think open mindedly" is fine for Muslims in Islam.
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Old 07-26-2016, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Here
1,706 posts, read 1,510,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That is a good point!

Most Muslims will be learning from "alleged experts" who are often far from being experts. This is result of lack of education in the field of their deen (religion). The "alleged experts" have never passed any formal courses as a qualified teacher does to be able to teach in state schools. I, to this day, have never had any such teacher to teach me about Islam. It is only through my own years of effort to understand the Qur'an that I have managed to understand Islam to my satisfaction.

For a Muslim, origin of his faith is not in thinking about Muhammad making it up or not but whether it makes sense or not and whether it is a new faith or the original faith. Muhammad never claimed it to be a new faith. Muhammad believed it to be extension of the original faith, faith of Abraham and of Noah before him.

Such Muslims take a lot of Qur'an text literally and often in isolation of the other verses. My rule in understanding the Qur'an and Islam has been to understand ALL the verses in the Qur'an on the same issue (they are dotted around in the Qur'an instead of in one place only). For this reason, creation of Adam should never be taken literally based on one verse.

[3.59] Surely the likeness of Jesus is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be", and he was.

Did Allah create Jesus from dust like Adam? There is no point in assuming that Jesus was created from dust, like Adam, by the hand of God. It also does not reject Theory of Evolution. Theory of Evolution does not reject dust was origin of man. Indeed, evolution did not occur in a vacuum or from nothing.

Islam does not do that. Lack of understanding of Islam does it to the alleged followers. A lot of narration in the Qur'an is not literal. Even description of Paradise and Hell is not literal.

Here is another example from the Qur'an on creation of Adam and Jesus respectively:

Creation of Adam,
[15.29] So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down making obeisance to him.

Creation of Jesus,
[4.171] O followers of the Book! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak against Allah, but the truth; the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Mary and a spirit from Him...

In these verses, the emphasis is not on dust but on "Spirit" in creation of Adam and Jesus. Not much is known to man about Spirit of or from God. Therefore, creation of Adam from dust or clay may not be literal. It is possible that man was created from dust but it may have taken a long evolutionary process for him to be complete. It could have been thousands of years of our time in the period man was complete creation.

The same is the case of God creating the universe and whatever is in it in 6 days. 6 days are not our literal 6 days. As the solar system did not exist before the 6 days began, 6 days could not have been earthly 6 days as known to us today but 6 days of God which is 6 periods of unknown length of time to us. Thus it was 6 periods of time rather than 6 of our days in which the universe was created.

Having said that, here are a couple of verses from the Qur'an (3:47 is about Jesus):

[3.47] She said: My Lord! When shall there be a son (born) to me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

[17.85] And they ask you about the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little.


And the question: Man may have been evolved through an evolutionary process but how did the human evolutionary process begin if there was no dust for man's origin?

Yes, "thinking for themselves" and "think open mindedly" is fine for Muslims in Islam.
Well, thinking open-mindedly has led to the execution of Muslims, and it has for Christians as well, although Christians not so much in the last few centuries. The whole question might go back to what constitutes Islam. And if Islam is what any Muslim wants it to be, then, well, I am still finding it difficult to understand how a Muslim who contemplates and concludes that Muhammad might be a fake, and is then punished for this conclusion, is free to be open-minded. He's not free to be open-minded, and he is not free to be open-minded because Islam has not allowed it as dictated by Muslims,, i.e. representatives of Islam. You can spin it some other way, but there are Muslims who are clearly not free to express their thoughts because if they did, punishment would await.
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
Well, thinking open-mindedly has led to the execution of Muslims, and it has for Christians as well, although Christians not so much in the last few centuries. The whole question might go back to what constitutes Islam. And if Islam is what any Muslim wants it to be, then, well, I am still finding it difficult to understand how a Muslim who contemplates and concludes that Muhammad might be a fake, and is then punished for this conclusion, is free to be open-minded. He's not free to be open-minded, and he is not free to be open-minded because Islam has not allowed it as dictated by Muslims,, i.e. representatives of Islam. You can spin it some other way, but there are Muslims who are clearly not free to express their thoughts because if they did, punishment would await.
There are 49 Muslim Majority Nations. The laws differ in each. In some of the larger ones there are variations of law within each Province or State. The laws of a majority Muslim nation do not reflect Islam any more than the laws of a Christian majority nation reflects Christianity.

For example in today's world there are 32 Nations that have anti-Blasphemy Laws. 22 are Muslim Nations. 27 Muslim Nations do not have any Blasphemy laws. There are 10 Christian Nations that have anti Blasphemy laws. There are 87 nations (Mostly Christian Majority) that have religious defamation laws.

Laws Penalizing Blasphemy, Apostasy and Defamation of Religion are Widespread | Pew Research Center

The strongest religious laws are found in the Mideast, which entails less than 20% of the world's Muslims. Over 2/3 of the Worlds Muslims are found in 6 Nations (Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, China, Malaysia) and in 2 (China, India) the Muslim population is a minority
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Old 07-26-2016, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Here
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are 49 Muslim Majority Nations. The laws differ in each. In some of the larger ones there are variations of law within each Province or State. The laws of a majority Muslim nation do not reflect Islam any more than the laws of a Christian majority nation reflects Christianity.

For example in today's world there are 32 Nations that have anti-Blasphemy Laws. 22 are Muslim Nations. 27 Muslim Nations do not have any Blasphemy laws. There are 10 Christian Nations that have anti Blasphemy laws. There are 87 nations (Mostly Christian Majority) that have religious defamation laws.

Laws Penalizing Blasphemy, Apostasy and Defamation of Religion are Widespread | Pew Research Center

The strongest religious laws are found in the Mideast, which entails less than 20% of the world's Muslims. Over 2/3 of the Worlds Muslims are found in 6 Nations (Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, China, Malaysia) and in 2 (China, India) the Muslim population is a minority
I'm not sure how what you said applies to what I said. All I know is that in Islam apostasy is considered a crime in major majority countries but perhaps more importantly, it is seen as violating the Quran to the tune of death as stipulated in the book. So even if a Muslim questions his faith, he pays a price either physically, emotionally, socially, or perhaps all three. Really, truly, I don't see how that makes for a religious belief that inspires critical thinking.

As for blasphemy laws, generally violating the Muslim version of blasphemy laws are far more costly to the person offending. Also in many non Muslim places blasphemy laws were implemented in respect to minority religions. I might be wrong, I really might, but I'll bet the Saudi blasphemy laws do not cover Christianity. The problems I have with Islam go beyond a cognitive repressive religion, or blasphemy laws. But as I must stress, my problems with Islam are not problems with peaceful Muslims.
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Old 07-26-2016, 09:10 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
I'm not sure how what you said applies to what I said. All I know is that in Islam apostasy is considered a crime in major majority countries but perhaps more importantly, it is seen as violating the Quran to the tune of death as stipulated in the book. So even if a Muslim questions his faith, he pays a price either physically, emotionally, socially, or perhaps all three. Really, truly, I don't see how that makes for a religious belief that inspires critical thinking.

As for blasphemy laws, generally violating the Muslim version of blasphemy laws are far more costly to the person offending. Also in many non Muslim places blasphemy laws were implemented in respect to minority religions. I might be wrong, I really might, but I'll bet the Saudi blasphemy laws do not cover Christianity. The problems I have with Islam go beyond a cognitive repressive religion, or blasphemy laws. But as I must stress, my problems with Islam are not problems with peaceful Muslims.
Uner the 4 madhabs of Shariah Apostasy can only be treated as a crime if the Apostasy reslts in other offenses. I am not certain about Shi'ite Sharia (Jafa'ari, Ismali or Twelver) But apparently Iran (which is Shi'ite) calls for the execution of apostates, although no one has ever been executed for apostasy in Iran, but Apostates are sometimes found to be guilty of other capital crimes.. The Wahhabi Kingdom of Saudi Arabia calls for execution of apostates under the laws of the Monarchy.

My understanding of Islam requires critical thinking as we are forbidden to follow the teachings of any Human unless we our self through our own investigation have validated what we believe.

We are responsible for what we believe or do not believe. It is our obligation to question and investigate all things. We do not have the option to say we were misled if our belief is false, as it is up to us as individuals to believe only that which we our self have verified.

But we do have our share of sheeple that will follow any dingbat who is a charismatic speaker. They are responsible for their erroneous, blind following. It is up to them to get off their lazy fat Tails and investigate, question and verify all things.
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Old Today, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Union County NJ
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Default From what I've read

Muslims cannot support the US Constitution because their allegiance is to Muhammed........
and Muslims must adhere to the Muslim faith...................
ain't that something if true ?
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