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Old 07-21-2016, 08:18 PM
 
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[quote=Alandros;44844544][quote=Continuum;44835296]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alandros View Post
Well we should use a fuller view of history... Hitler was very clear that he fought the Jews in the name of Christ




God did command many believers to kill, even commit genocide. Yes it was the Old Testament but God clearly states he does not change in the Bible. So the one who ordered and commanded such things (and did them himself) is one and the same. Hence Hitler committing genocide in the name of God is perfectly consistent and matches.

Now if you want to say that some part of the Bible say killing such people is ok and good and others where killing is bad and you can cherry pick the later then so can Muslim believers of the Quran. Some might be like Hitler and justify their actions via certain verses, while others fight those actions with different verses.
From what I have read, the OT and the christian god loves the Jews, and Jesus was a Jew!!

“Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen” (Rom. 9:4-5).

As the summary in Romans 9 indicates, the Jews were a special people who were designed by God to be the channel of divine revelation to the world. From them would come the prophets, the writers of the Old Testament, and most of the writers of the New Testament. From them would come the twelve apostles and, supremely, Jesus Christ. The Jews were given the Law of Moses, which was not extended beyond Israel. To them were given the special rules for worship in the tabernacle and in the temple; and to them were given special promises that were not extended to the entire human race. Though Israel did not choose God, God chose them; and with extraordinary patience and tenacity, He fulfills His promises to Israel even in times of apostasy and departure from God. It is in keeping with this purpose of God that Israel had such a prominent place throughout the Old Testament, and the course of human history is developed in the Old Testament period as it revolves around Israel and the Holy Land. God’s dealing with them both in judgment and in mercy provided a divine revelation of the nature of God, His righteousness, His love, His grace, and His infinite wisdom. The major movements of the nation constitute the important divisions of the Old Testament. In the time of Jacob and Joseph the children of Israel went down to Egypt a family of seventy, and there, in several hundred years, they became a great nation of perhaps two to three million."

https://bible.org/seriespage/6-jew-a...-old-testament

Not so with the Quran and hadiths.

2:65 Allah transforms disobedient Jews into apes

“And well you know there were those among you [Jews] that transgressed the Sabbath, and We said to them, ‘Be you apes, miserably slinking!’

2:89 Unbelievers, particularly Jews, are accursed

“When there came to them [Jews] a Book from Allah, confirming what was with them — and they aforetimes prayed for victory over the unbelievers — when there came to them that they recognized, they disbelieved in it; and the curse of Allah is on the unbelievers.

2:191-193 Fight and kill unbelievers until “religion is Allah’s,” i.e. Islamic law rules all societies

“And slay them wherever you come upon them, and expel them from where they expelled you; persecution is more grievous than slaying. But fight them not by the Holy Mosque until they should fight you there; then, if they fight you, slay them — such is the recompense of unbelievers, but if they give over, surely Allah is All-forgiving, All-compassionate. Fight them, till there is no persecution and the religion is Allah’s; then if they give over, there shall be no enmity save for evildoers.”

3:28 Don’t take unbelievers as friends and allies, unless it is for “fear of them,” i.e. deceptively for protection of oneself or of Islam

“Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends, rather than the believers — for whoso does that belongs not to Allah in anything — unless you have a fear of them. Allah warns you that You beware of Him, and unto Allah is the homecoming.”

3:110-112 Muslims are the best of people, Jews have earned Allah’s anger

“You are the best nation ever brought forth to men, bidding to honour, and forbidding dishonour, and believing in Allah. Had the People of the Book believed, it were better for them; some of them are believers, but the most of them are ungodly. They will not harm you, except a little hurt; and if they fight with you, they will turn on you their backs; then they will not be helped. Abasement shall be pitched on them, wherever they are come upon, except they be in a bond of Allah, and a bond of the people; they will be laden with the burden of Allah’s anger, and poverty shall be pitched on them; that, because they disbelieved in Allah’s signs, and slew the Prophets without right; that, for that they acted rebelliously and were transgressors.”

3:151 Allah will cast terror into the unbelievers’ hearts

“We will cast into the hearts of the unbelievers terror, for that they have associated with Allah that for which He sent down never authority; their lodging shall be the Fire; evil is the lodging of the evildoers.”

3:181 Jews are bound for hell

“Allah has heard the saying of those who said, ‘Surely Allah is poor, and we are rich.’ We shall write down what they have said, and their slaying the Prophets without right, and We shall say, ‘Taste the chastisement of the burning.’”

4:34 Beat disobedient women

“Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that Allah has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for Allah’s guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; Allah is All-high, All-great.”

4:160 Jews do evil, turn people away from Allah

“And for the evildoing of those of Jewry, We have forbidden them certain good things that were permitted to them, and for their barring from Allah’s way many…”

5:33 Crucify or amputate the hands and feet of those who make war against Allah and Muhammad

“This is the recompense of those who fight against Allah and His Messenger, and hasten about the earth, to do corruption there: they shall be slaughtered, or crucified, or their hands and feet shall alternately be struck off; or they shall be banished from the land. That is a degradation for them in this world; and in the world to come awaits them a mighty chastisement.”

5:41 Jews listen to falsehood and pervert the meaning of their Scriptures

“O Messenger, let them not grieve thee that vie with one another in unbelief, such men as say with their mouths ‘We believe’ but their hearts believe not; and the Jews who listen to falsehood, listen to other folk, who have not come to thee, perverting words from their meanings, saying, ‘If you are given this, then take it; if you are not given it, beware!’ Whomsoever Allah desires to try, thou canst not avail him anything with Allah. Those are they whose hearts Allah desired not to purify; for them is degradation in this world; and in the world to come awaits them a mighty chastisement.”

5:51 Don’t take Jews and Christians as friends and allies

“O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Whoso of you makes them his friends is one of them. Allah guides not the people of the evildoers.”

5:59-60 Jews cursed, made into apes and swine

“Say: ‘People of the Book, do you blame us for any other cause than that we believe in Allah, and what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down before, and that most of you are ungodly?’ Say: ‘Shall I tell you of a recompense with Allah, worse than that? Whomsoever Allah has cursed, and with whom He is wroth, and made some of them apes and swine, and worshippers of idols — they are worse situated, and have gone further astray from the right way.’”

5:64 Jews accursed

“The Jews have said, ‘Allah’s hand is fettered.’ Fettered are their hands, and they are cursed for what they have said. Nay, but His hands are outspread; He expends how He will. And what has been sent down to thee from thy Lord will surely increase many of them in insolence and unbelief; and We have cast between them enmity and hatred, till the Day of Resurrection. As often as they light a fire for war, Allah will extinguish it. They hasten about the earth, to do corruption there; and Allah loves not the workers of corruption.”

5:72 Christians are unbelievers

“They are unbelievers who say, ‘Allah is the Messiah, Mary’s son.’ For the Messiah said, ‘Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Verily whoso associates with Allah anything, Allah shall prohibit him entrance to Paradise, and his refuge shall be the Fire; and wrongdoers shall have no helpers.’”

5:82 Jews most hostile to the Muslims

“Thou wilt surely find the most hostile of men to the believers are the Jews and the idolaters; and thou wilt surely find the nearest of them in love to the believers are those who say ‘We are Christians’; that, because some of them are priests and monks, and they wax not proud.”

6:91 Jews deny, conceal divine revelations

“They measured not Allah with His true measure when they said, ‘Allah has not sent down aught on any mortal.’ Say: ‘Who sent down the Book that Moses brought as a light and a guidance to men? You put it into parchments, revealing them, and hiding much; and you were taught that you knew not, you and your fathers.’ Say: ‘Allah.’ Then leave them alone, playing their game of plunging.”

6:146 Jews insolent

“And to those of Jewry We have forbidden every beast with claws; and of oxen and sheep We have forbidden them the fat of them, save what their backs carry, or their entrails, or what is mingled with bone; that We recompensed them for their insolence; surely We speak truly.”

7:166 Jews are apes

“And when they [Jews] turned in disdain from that forbidding We said to them, ‘Be you apes, miserably slinking!’”

8:12 Allah will terrorize unbelievers; Muslims should behead them

“When thy Lord was revealing to the angels, ‘I am with you; so confirm the believers. I shall cast into the unbelievers’ hearts terror; so smite above the necks, and smite every finger of them!’”

8:39 Fight unbelievers until Islam reigns supreme

“Fight them, till there is no persecution and the religion is Allah’s entirely; then if they give over, surely Allah sees the things they do.”

8:60 Make war against enemies of Allah

“Make ready for them whatever force and strings of horses you can, to terrify thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides them that you know not; Allah knows them. And whatsoever you expend in the way of Allah shall be repaid you in full; you will not be wronged.”

9:5 Slay the idolaters

“Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayer, and pay the alms, then let them go their way; Allah is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.”

9:28 Idolaters unclean

“O believers, the idolaters are indeed unclean; so let them not come near the Holy Mosque after this year of theirs. If you fear poverty, Allah shall surely enrich you of His bounty, if He will; Allah is All-knowing; All-wise.”

9:29 Fight and subjugate the Jews and Christians

“Fight those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden — such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book — until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled.”

9:30 Jews and Christians assailed by Allah

“The Jews say, ‘Ezra is the Son of Allah’; the Christians say, ‘The Messiah is the Son of Allah.’ That is the utterance of their mouths, conforming with the unbelievers before them. Allah assail them! How they are perverted!”

9:31 Jews and Christians have taken their clergy and holy men as lords

“They have taken their rabbis and their monks as lords apart from Allah, and the Messiah, Mary’s son — and they were commanded to serve but One Allah; there is no god but He; glory be to Him, above that they associate.”

9:73 Be harsh with unbelievers

“O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and hypocrites, and be thou harsh with them; their refuge is Gehenna — an evil homecoming!”

9:111 Paradise guaranteed to those who kill and are killed for Allah

“Allah has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of Allah; they kill, and are killed; that is a promise binding upon Allah in the Torah, and the Gospel, and the Koran; and who fulfils his covenant truer than Allah? So rejoice in the bargain you have made with Him; that is the mighty triumph.”

9:123 Fight the unbelievers, be harsh with them

“O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you; and let them find in you a harshness; and know that Allah is with the godfearing.”

47:4 Behead and slaughter the unbelievers; take others captive

“When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads. So it shall be; and if Allah had willed, He would have avenged Himself upon them; but that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will not send their works astray.”

48:29 Be merciful to believers, not unbelievers

“Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to another.”

62:6 Jews should long for death

“Say: ‘You of Jewry, if you assert that you are the friends of Allah, apart from other men, then do you long for death, if you speak truly.’”

98:6 Unbelievers are the worst of creatures

“The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolaters shall be in the Fire of Gehenna, therein dwelling forever; those are the worst of creatures.”

I'm thinking Hitler was confused and meant Muhammed, not Jesus.

Can you give me a week of DEADLY terrorist attacks by any other group besides Muslims done in the name of their religion?? No more red herrings, please.
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Old 07-22-2016, 12:01 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alandros View Post
Well we should use a fuller view of history... Hitler was very clear that he fought the Jews in the name of Christ

God did command many believers to kill, even commit genocide. Yes it was the Old Testament but God clearly states he does not change in the Bible. So the one who ordered and commanded such things (and did them himself) is one and the same. Hence Hitler committing genocide in the name of God is perfectly consistent and matches.

Now if you want to say that some part of the Bible say killing such people is ok and good and others where killing is bad and you can cherry pick the later then so can Muslim believers of the Quran. Some might be like Hitler and justify their actions via certain verses, while others fight those actions with different verses.
As I understand the Bible was not claimed to be immutable. There are a lot of supporting argument and debates on this point. Thus the NT abrogated the OT where the NT verses overrides.
The overriding pacifist absolute moral maxim of 'love your enemies' overrides every thing else in this context.

On the other hand there are no pacifist overriding absolute moral maxims in the Quran.
Whatever the Quran that is seemingly positive to non-Muslims are all conditional and open-ended and no-holds-barred.

Note this thread,
60:8 Allah Permit Respect of Infidels ...
where Muslims claimed Alllah exhorted Muslims to be kind and just to non-Muslims. From the Ahadith box the context refer only to non-believing mothers and not all Muslims.
In general 60:8 is conditional thus open ended for Muslims to squeeze in an justify their reasons for their evil acts.

Since Hitler had tried on his own to justify his evils, objectively this is the likely rebuke he would have gotten on Judgment Day from God;

God to Hitler: What the Fvck! I told you [in verses ... ...] to love your enemies not to kill them in such a state genocidal horror. You are send to Hell and be burnt therein eternally!
On the other hand, this will be Allah's response to the evil prone Muslims;
Allah to Jihadist: Yo.. give me five, you have been a very good Muslim in complying with my commands/verses in the Quran and you shall be greatly rewarded in Paradise .. with virgins, blah.. blah.. blah.
Try proving me wrong [objectively] on the above?
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Old 07-22-2016, 03:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
On the other hand, this will be Allah's response to the evil prone Muslims;
Allah to Jihadist: Yo.. give me five, you have been a very good Muslim in complying with my commands/verses in the Quran and you shall be greatly rewarded in Paradise .. with virgins, blah.. blah.. blah.
Try proving me wrong [objectively] on the above?
Easy!

Allah to Jihadist who kill innocent non-Muslims: What the Fvck! I told you [in verses 60:8-9] to be kind to those who do not wage war on you and not to kill them and other Muslims indiscriminately. You are to be sent to Hell and be burnt therein eternally!

Allah to all Muslim who do not kill innocent non-Muslims Yo.. give me five, you have been very good Muslims in complying with my commands in the verses 60:8-9 in the Qur'an and by doing so you have flied the flag of humanity. You were each khalif that I had wanted you to be when creating you. You shall be greatly rewarded in Paradise with peace, tranquillity and real happiness.[/indent]
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Old 07-22-2016, 03:04 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I follow Islam. Islam does not promote sex with children. the reason I do not have sex with children. But you still hate me for following Islam. Clearly you are spewing hate against me just because I am a Muslim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Islam promotes sex with children. Look at all the child brides.
I follow Islam. I do not have sex with children. I have never had a child bride. You still hate me because I am a Muslim. This is so because you hate ALL Muslims. That’s my point.
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Old 07-22-2016, 03:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I follow deen of Islam. Islam does not promote hate against another human being, the reason I do not hate anyone. But you still hate me for following Islam. Clearly you are spewing hate against me just because I am a Muslim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Islam promotes hate:

Quran 2:65 And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!

Quran 7:166 Therefore when they revoltingly persisted in what they had been forbidden, We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated.

Quran 28:42 in this world We made a curse to follow them and on the Day of Judgment they will be among the loathed (and despised).

Qur’an 8:55 Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve.

Of course this is just a sample.
These verses are not commanding me to hate anyone. Islam promotes forgiveness:

[2.109] Many of the followers of the Book wish that they could turn you back into unbelievers after your faith, out of envy from themselves, after the truth has become manifest to them; but pardon and forgive, so that Allah should bring about His command; surely Allah has power over all things.

Therefore, I am not commanded to hate anyone and I don’t hate anyone, and have never said that I hate anyone anywhere in this forum, unlike you. Yet, you still hate me, and have spewed this hate on this site, against me and ALL Muslims.
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Old 07-22-2016, 03:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I follow deen of Islam. Islam does not promote intolerance. the reason I am not an intolerant person. But you still hate me for following deen of Islam. Clearly you are spewing hate against me just because I am a Muslim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Islam promotes intolerance.
I follow deen of Islam. You have not shown me to be an intolerant follower of Islam but you still hate me for being follower of Islam. You hate me and ALL Muslims not because they are ALL intolerant but because they are ALL Muslims.
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Old 07-22-2016, 03:39 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I follow Islam. Islam does not promote genocide. the reason I have not been involved in any genocide. But you still hate me for following deen of Islam. Clearly you are spewing hate against me just because I am a Muslim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Islam promotes genocide.

One example is the the Genocide of Banu Qurayza at the hands of Muhammed.
Utter lie!

Banu Quraiza had committed treason and the tribe was tried in a court of law. The judge of the case was chosen by not Muhammad but by Banu Quraiza as he was one of their known friends and familiar with Jewish law. Banu Quraiza was found by the judge to be guilty of treason and it was him who had sentenced the men to death because they had committed treason. Had it been Muhammad as judge, he would not have sentenced them to death but quite likely done as he did with another tribe (Banu Nadir).

But my point is that Muslims are not commanded to commit crime of genocide and that’s why I have never taken part in such crime. Yet, you still hate me solely because I am a Muslim.
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Old 07-22-2016, 03:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I follow deen of Islam. Islam does not promote slavery, the reason I have never had even one slave in my life. But you still hate me for following deen of Islam Clearly you are spewing hate against me just because I am a Muslim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Islam promotes slavery. Muhammed owned and traded slaves. The quran makes mention of slave ownership.
Mention of slave ownership in the Qur'an is not the same as “promoting slave ownership” in the Qur'an. There has to be a command in the Qur'an to slave people for it to be promoting slavery. Whether Muhammad had slaves or didn’t have is not the issue. The issue is, does Islam promote slavery. There isn’t even one verse in the Qur’an that commands me to keep someone as slave. Instead there are verses that promote freeing of slaves that were already slaves before the completion of the Qur’an. This is why I have never kept anyone as slave. Yet, you still hate me. The only reason for that hate against me is that I am a Muslim.
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Old 07-22-2016, 04:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Did I write the quran and hadiths?
Nor did I write the Qur’an or ahadith!
Why do you hate me?
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Old 07-22-2016, 04:37 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I care because of 9-11.
More Americans died in invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq than on 9/11. Get Bush to answer for that if you really care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I care because of Orlando and Boston and Paris and all the other HATEFUL MUSLIM terrorist attacks.
Is that why you hate me and ALL MUSLIMS? Is that why you are making statements here that are incitement to hatred of ALL Muslims?
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