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Old 06-30-2016, 11:19 PM
 
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I am reading up on the origins of Islam. Do any of you have any reading material that provides historical corroboration by neutral observers or enemies of the Prophet Muhammad that can place him geographically, and by date. Basically verify him as as a real historical person and not mythical
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Old 07-01-2016, 12:12 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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I believe Muslims rely on the Quran, Ahadith, Sira and Sunnah to infer Muhammad was a historical person based on faith.
Muslims has no choice but to accept Muhammad was a real historical person otherwise their faith will not work.

As whether there is a really real historical person there no solid historical evidence to support the existence of the Muhammad that is described in the Quran, Ahadiths, Sira and Sunnah.

In the research of Tom Holland [a very famous historican], he could not find proofs of the existence of Muhammad the Prophet of Islam as told in the Quran.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzKk0L6H1ms

Check out the other videos related to Tom Holland


Robert Spencer wrote a book on the topic:
Did Muhammad Exist?:
An Inquiry into Islam's Obscure Origins Hardcover – April 23, 2012

Note the YouTube videos re Robert Spencer on the topic.
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Old 07-01-2016, 01:22 AM
 
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From what I've been reading a lot of the Abrahamic religion's major characters have little/no historical backing. Moses, Noah, Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad etc. The historic founder in the mold of Joseph Smith in Mormonism may be the exception.
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Old 07-01-2016, 02:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I believe Muslims rely on the Quran, Ahadith, Sira and Sunnah to infer Muhammad was a historical person based on faith.
Muslims has no choice but to accept Muhammad was a real historical person otherwise their faith will not work.

As whether there is a really real historical person there no solid historical evidence to support the existence of the Muhammad that is described in the Quran, Ahadiths, Sira and Sunnah.

In the research of Tom Holland [a very famous historican], he could not find proofs of the existence of Muhammad the Prophet of Islam as told in the Quran.
If one is looking for "solid" proof of the existence of Muhammad, one will never find "solid" proof unless s/he goes back and lives 1430 years before today.

Muhammad lived among real people more than 1400 years ago. He died aged 63 years and was buried in Madina by the people around him at the time. Muslims have visited his grave every day ever since then. Unless someone can prove that the visits to his grave began after the generation that lived with such a person, this is the best proof that one can find that Muhammad was a real man in history. Even his enemies to this day, including those posting in this forum, remember him as a real person in history otherwise their hate against him is vain.
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Old 07-01-2016, 10:11 AM
 
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How do you get these "facts" about him when you just said it is impossible to know about a person that lived 1400 years ago
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Old 07-01-2016, 01:46 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
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Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Even his enemies to this day, including those posting in this forum, remember him as a real person in history otherwise their hate against him is vain.
Not really. If the creature Muhammed did not exist, I would hate whoever came up with the evil Islamic writings promoting sex with children, mass rape of captive women, slavery, selling women, terrorism, slaughter, genocide, and all the rest. Someone is responsible for the root of Islam and they deserve to be despised by all moral people.
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Old 07-01-2016, 11:10 PM
 
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If Muhammad was a historical fact
It means that the transferred is also true about his life-- It is inappropriate image

He is someone who loves women
Because he owns 13 of the women
And also attending the ceremony of the slaughter of the Jews humans
And also his teachings to kill enemies
And also from the teachings of the legalization of the spoils in the wars
And also from the teachings visit the Kaaba and kiss the Black StoneBut if he is fictional character, it means the fall of Islam
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Old 07-01-2016, 11:52 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
If one is looking for "solid" proof of the existence of Muhammad, one will never find "solid" proof unless s/he goes back and lives 1430 years before today.
If there is no conventional "solid" proofs the Muhammad who recited the Quran within 623-632AD existed, then whatever that is said of Muhammad cannot be true and it is only a guess and speculations.

Quote:
Muhammad lived among real people more than 1400 years ago. He died aged 63 years and was buried in Madina by the people around him at the time. Muslims have visited his grave every day ever since then. Unless someone can prove that the visits to his grave began after the generation that lived with such a person, this is the best proof that one can find that Muhammad was a real man in history. Even his enemies to this day, including those posting in this forum, remember him as a real person in history otherwise their hate against him is vain.
The existence of a grave can not prove that it belong to Muhammad of the Quran.

What is claimed is the following;
1. There is a grave at present that Muslims visited everyday somewhere in Saudi Arabia.
2. It is claimed this grave belonged to Prophet Muhammad.

In the absence of 'solid' proofs, it is very common all over the world for ignorant and zealous people to relate existing ancient graves to some one famous. This is merely for psychological purpose and not for credible truths.

Quote:
Unless someone can prove that the visits to his grave began after the generation that lived with such a person, this is the best proof that one can find that Muhammad was a real man in history.
This is a sham and a farce.
The onus of proof is as usual on the positive claimant who claim that grave belonged to Prophet Muhammad of the Quran who died in 632AD.

The most effective proof is to trace the historical of the grave to proper evidence that it belonged to Prophet Muhammad.
The earliest mentioned of the Green Dome is 1279 AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Dome

This grave could have been a grave of some one together with a group of people, and Muslims out of zeal associate it with Prophet Muhammad of the Quran.

Therefore as you admitted and I agree, there is no way humans at the present can provide 'solid' proofs the so-claimed grave of Prophet Muhammad belong to the a so-named Muhammad in the Quran.
Thus there is no way a real historical Prophet Muhammad of the Quran existed.

From the actual existence of Islam as today and that lands from India to Spain were conquered, some leader must have started those wars. It is also a fact a Quran emerged together with the Islamic conquests. Therefore it is very possible a group of people compiled [plagiarized from Judaism, Christianity and others] the Quran as a holy text with political rules to control the people of the land. The so-named Prophet Muhammad in the Quran is most likely to be invented to enable the Quran to make some sense.

Now for those who insist Muhammad existed as a real historical person [even without proofs] they will have to answer and take responsibility for their claim and all the terrible evils and violence that are associated with Muhammad.
This is a question of "IF."
If they do not claim Muhammad existed, then there is no issue with the acts of Muhammad.

If Muslims do not claim Muhammad existed, then the focus [contentions and debate] is on the message and doctrine of the present Quran. Even without insisting on Muhammad and his Sunnah and Ahadith therefrom, the Quran still contain its share of evil laden elements.

Like most knowledge even with religion, the person is not critical. What is critical is the message, doctrines, principles, etc. from that particular religion that will facilitate its eschatological and soteriological purposes. For example, in the Eastern religion it is not critical whether Guatama Buddha, Lao Tze, Mahavira existed as real historical persons or not. What is critical with these religions are their message and whether the message can stand the test of rationality and useful utility to mankind.

In certain aspect of Buddhism it is not an issue at all with the metaphorical saying 'If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him.' An understanding of such a statement will earn credibility instead of condemnations [only believers with low self esteem will get offended].
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Old 07-02-2016, 02:12 PM
 
343 posts, read 229,529 times
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Just a little info on me. I don't believe Jesus, Moses, Noah, Abraham were historical figures so I don't want it to come across like I am attacking muslims. I have just really started researching it for myself after quite a few years of reading up on the "historical" Jesus. That is why I asked.
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Old 07-02-2016, 09:11 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Not really. If the creature Muhammed did not exist, I would hate whoever came up with the evil Islamic writings promoting sex with children, mass rape of captive women, slavery, selling women, terrorism, slaughter, genocide, and all the rest. Someone is responsible for the root of Islam and they deserve to be despised by all moral people.
So you are spewing hate against someone you do not have proof that he existed. Good! You are talking in ignorance about Muhammad.
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