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Old 04-06-2017, 01:39 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
And then what will happen?
This is a forum for asking question and discussion. Every one has the discretion to do what they want with the flow of information.
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Old 04-06-2017, 02:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The author has covered Islam very extensively and in depth with critical thoughts.
Have you read his arguments?

I accept some of his arguments are contentious but the main thrust of his arguments are reasonably sound, especially on how the religionists [self-claimed ulema, ulama] has expounded the Quran to suit their agenda and exploit the masses.

Instead on sweeping off his views with one broad brush, you should review the individual arguments. I know you will agree with most of his arguments and disagree with some.

Here is one interesting site from Dr. Ashif Khan along a similar vein;
https://www.linkedin.com/today/autho...yBm3AyW9OUFxnN
I don't find it "interesting site" but ignorance site. The guy (sounds like a Pakistani background guy) is so ignorant about the words in the Qur'aan that he can't tell the difference between the word صَلَّىٰ , صَلَوٰة , or الصَّلَوَاتِ

He is no better than "the self-proclaimed ulema" he is refuting. He hasn't got any fresh argument that I can learn from.
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Old 04-06-2017, 02:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In addition to the above links, what do you think of this view regarding Salaat;

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/salaa...mp-reader-card



Here is one interesting point;




Suggest you read this article in full and offer your comments.
He is wrong about Salat.

There are two kind of prayers (English word); formal and casual/informal. I can pray (casual) at any time. I don't have to wait for maghrib (sunset time) to do this prayer. If I am about to die at 10.19am, can't I pray to Allah at that time?

But the formal prayers الصَّلَوَات are carried out at appointed times. And the middle prayer وَالصَّلَاةِ الْوُسْطَىٰ is bang in the middle of them. The purpose of these prayers is different from the purposes of other invocations, informal/casual prayers (du'as).

The author thinks he knows Islam better than "self-proclaimed ulemas". Frankly, he is no better than them but worse than them in this case.
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Old 04-06-2017, 02:42 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I don't find it "interesting site" but ignorance site. The guy (sounds like a Pakistani background guy) is so ignorant about the words in the Qur'aan that he can't tell the difference between the word صَلَّىٰ , صَلَوٰة , or الصَّلَوَاتِ

He is no better than "the self-proclaimed ulema" he is refuting. He hasn't got any fresh argument that I can learn from.
On the surface the words are different but they all from the same root S-L-W.
On what basis do you accuse him of being ignorant?
For intellectual sake I would like to know.
Have read his whole argument?

If Dr. Asif had merely guess based on his personal feelings without doing the relevant research, that would be ignorant, i.e. "lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated."

Dr. Asif Khan has analyzed the root of the words re SLW, its grammatical structure and survey its usage throughout the Quran plus within the Arabic community. That is not what an ignorant person would do.
Personally I do not agree he is ignorant but merely has a different views from yours and others.
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Old 04-06-2017, 02:47 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
He is wrong about Salat.

There are two kind of prayers (English word); formal and casual/informal. I can pray (casual) at any time. I don't have to wait for maghrib (sunset time) to do this prayer. If I am about to die at 10.19am, can't I pray to Allah at that time?

But the formal prayers الصَّلَوَات are carried out at appointed times. And the middle prayer وَالصَّلَاةِ الْوُسْطَىٰ is bang in the middle of them. The purpose of these prayers is different from the purposes of other invocations, informal/casual prayers (du'as).

The author thinks he knows Islam better than "self-proclaimed ulemas". Frankly, he is no better than them but worse than them in this case.
Btw, Dr. Asif argument is that the central theme of all those words he raised with the root S-L-W is commitment and the yearning to link/connect with Allah. The central theme of S-L-W is not prayers with obligatory fixed prostrations, wudu, rigid rituals, etc. as dictated by Allah to the extreme that some Muslims are punished/condemned if they do not go for prayers or feel guilty if they missed the official prayers.
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Old 04-06-2017, 02:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is another interesting comment from the same article;



These points are relevant as counterviews to the OP's;
No. The author of the site has not made any counter points to the OP. If I wanted to comment on the OP, I would not have picked on الصَّلَاةَ but on addition in the brackets (salah) which should have been الصَّلَوَات. I would also not have picked on Salah but on Sunnah. In one hadith I had read, "Sunnah" is not mentioned but only the Qur'aan. "Sunnah" is a later addition in the sermon attributed to the Prophet. He had left only the Qur'aan with believers.
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Old 04-06-2017, 02:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Btw, Dr. Asif argument is that the central theme of all those words he raised with the root S-L-W is commitment and the yearning to link/connect with Allah. The central theme of S-L-W is not prayers with obligatory fixed prostrations, wuju, rigid rituals, etc. as dictated by Allah.
He does not understand what the "contact prayer" is. All prayers are supposed to be the contact prayers (one tries to contact Allah spiritually through prayers and du'as). Obligatory prayers have a certain purpose. This is why they are obligatory. Do you know what that certain purpose is and why these obligatory prayers are to be at appointed times?

By the way, prostrations, bowing, and wudu are all in the Qur'aan.
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Old 04-06-2017, 03:02 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
He does not understand what the "contact prayer" is. All prayers are supposed to be the contact prayers (one tries to contact Allah spiritually through prayers and du'as). Obligatory prayers have a certain purpose. This is why they are obligatory. Do you know what that certain purpose is and why these obligatory prayers are to be at appointed times?

By the way, prostrations, bowing, and wudu are all in the Qur'aan.
To be fair I suggest you read the whole article.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/salaa...mp-reader-card

I understand the prostrations, bowing, and wudu are supposedly in the Quran, there are are alternative views to what those terms represent and not as interpreted by the ulemas.
There are more details of these in the first book I referenced;
https://mentalbondageinthenameofgod.wordpress.com/
This book is by Aidid Safar.
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Old 04-06-2017, 03:04 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
On the surface the words are different but they all from the same root S-L-W.
On what basis do you accuse him of being ignorant?
This argument about the same root does not mean the same meaning. Arabic words with the same root can have different meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
For intellectual sake I would like to know.
Have read his whole argument?
On salaat (namaz), Yes. In Indian subcontinent, Salaat is called "namaz". The other prayers are called "du'a".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If Dr. Asif had merely guess based on his personal feelings without doing the relevant research, that would be ignorant, i.e. "lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated."

Dr. Asif Khan has analyzed the root of the words re SLW, its grammatical structure and survey its usage throughout the Quran plus within the Arabic community. That is not what an ignorant person would do.
Personally I do not agree he is ignorant but merely has a different views from yours and others.
He is ignorant if he thinks that the Arabic words with the same root mean the same.
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Old 04-06-2017, 03:24 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
This argument about the same root does not mean the same meaning. Arabic words with the same root can have different meaning.

On salaat (namaz), Yes. In Indian subcontinent, Salaat is called "namaz". The other prayers are called "du'a".

He is ignorant if he thinks that the Arabic words with the same root mean the same.
There is a difference between "salaat" [SLW] and "du'a" [D3W]. We are discussing Salaat [SLW] not "du'a" [D3W] in this case.

We have discussed before, in Arabic same root do not necessary have the same 'family' meaning. But, in this case we are discussing all words with the same family meaning within the root SLW.

Btw, "remembrance" is more critical than the SLW: alssalata, e.g.
29:45. Recite [in prayer] that which hath been inspired in thee of the Scripture, and establish worship [prayers -SLW: alssalata]. Lo! Worship [prayer] preserveth [tanhā; prevent] from lewdness and iniquity [wal-munkari], but verily remembrance [waladhik'ru; dhikr] of Allah is more important. And Allah knoweth what ye do.
That the ulema has put so much emphasis on Salaat [SLW] to the extent of incurring lots of incoveniences, the pushing of prayers everywhere imposed on individuals and employers, schools, etc. deserve a second look.
A thorough analysis of the Quran reveals "remembrance" [dhik'ru; dhikr] is more important and SLW [salaat] is not as rigid as what the ulema invented what it to be.
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