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Old 04-06-2017, 04:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
To be fair I suggest you read the whole article.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/salaa...mp-reader-card

I understand the prostrations, bowing, and wudu are supposedly in the Quran, there are are alternative views to what those terms represent and not as interpreted by the ulemas.
There are more details of these in the first book I referenced;
https://mentalbondageinthenameofgod.wordpress.com/
This book is by Aidid Safar.
I have read the whole article. The man is wrong. He is mixing up different words to reach his misinterpretation. He is mixing up formal prayer الصَّلَاة and prayer فَصَلّ that can be done at other times. The prayer الصَّلَاة of believers is not the same as prayer صلاۃ of disbelievers (8:35). The prayer الصَّلَاة is formal prayer at the appointed time. Prayer صلاۃ of the disbelievers is not formal prayer. The guy has mental bondage when it comes to differentiating the two. He sees each the same way.
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Old 04-06-2017, 05:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There is a difference between "salaat" [SLW] and "du'a" [D3W]. We are discussing Salaat [SLW] not "du'a" [D3W] in this case.

We have discussed before, in Arabic same root do not necessary have the same 'family' meaning. But, in this case we are discussing all words with the same family meaning within the root SLW.
"All words" here do not mean the same thing. Do you think "assalaat" in the Qur'aan means the same as "salaat" in the Qur'aan?

It is "assalaat" that is the formal prayer at the appointed time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Btw, "remembrance" is more critical than the SLW: alssalata, e.g.
29:45. Recite [in prayer] that which hath been inspired in thee of the Scripture, and establish worship [prayers -SLW: alssalata]. Lo! Worship [prayer] preserveth [tanhā; prevent] from lewdness and iniquity [wal-munkari], but verily remembrance [waladhik'ru; dhikr] of Allah is more important. And Allah knoweth what ye do.
That the ulema has put so much emphasis on Salaat [SLW] to the extent of incurring lots of incoveniences, the pushing of prayers everywhere imposed on individuals and employers, schools, etc. deserve a second look.
A thorough analysis of the Quran reveals "remembrance" [dhik'ru; dhikr] is more important and SLW [salaat] is not as rigid as what the ulema invented what it to be.
That is my view too.

Formal prayers at the appointed times prevent people from doing evil deeds at those times. This leads to people remembering Allah regularly and becoming a person with taqwa. Thus the regular formal prayer is a training ground to remember Allah and stay away from doing evil deeds. Having taqwa (consciousness about Allah) is more important than merely joining the congregation just to be seen of men.

[4.142] Surely the hypocrites (try to) deceive Allah, and He shall requite their deceit to them, and when they stand up for the prayer (assalaat) they stand up sluggishly; they do it only to be seen of men and do not remember Allah save a little.

Assalaat is about remembering Allah. Regular remembering Allah makes you conscious of Allah, the main thing that prevents one doing evil deeds. Therefore, remembering Allah (being conscious of Allah) makes one righteous person leading him to do good and stay away from doing evil deeds.

To try to dilute the real purpose of "assalaat" is ignorance. It is no better than ulema stressing on assalaat so much but not on having taqwa. My understanding is that a human being was created to be a good human being than a bad Muslim. A lot of Muslim ulema are not trying to teach people to be good human beings.
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Old 04-06-2017, 10:22 AM
 
4,432 posts, read 1,661,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is a forum for asking question and discussion. Every one has the discretion to do what they want with the flow of information.
That doesn't answer my question.

You are here in this forum and you want me to read someone's opinion. The question is, why should I read it and what is your intention behind asking me read it?
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Old 04-06-2017, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
That doesn't answer my question.

You are here in this forum and you want me to read someone's opinion. The question is, why should I read it and what is your intention behind asking me read it?
I am here in this forum to contribute my views and share views [with reasonable justifications and arguments] from various perspectives. It is a human default that all humans need to be critical thinkers. And that is what is basically a forum suppose to be, else it would be a bigoted forum.
I told you each poster has his/her own discretion whether to read another's views.
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Old 04-06-2017, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
"All words" here do not mean the same thing. Do you think "assalaat" in the Qur'aan means the same as "salaat" in the Qur'aan?

It is "assalaat" that is the formal prayer at the appointed time.
I understand the central word is 'salaat' [SLW] and 'assalaat' is another grammatical form [meaning] of that main theme.

For example, if the main theme is eating a dinner to satisfy one's hunger, all other words like biting, chewing, masticating, putting food in the mouth, swallowing, and the likes belong to the same theme. A linguist who rely on the root system could assign a specific root [e.g. Z-Y-Z] to all these related actions.


Quote:
That is my view too.

Formal prayers at the appointed times prevent people from doing evil deeds at those times. This leads to people remembering Allah regularly and becoming a person with taqwa. Thus the regular formal prayer is a training ground to remember Allah and stay away from doing evil deeds. Having taqwa (consciousness about Allah) is more important than merely joining the congregation just to be seen of men.

[4.142] Surely the hypocrites (try to) deceive Allah, and He shall requite their deceit to them, and when they stand up for the prayer (assalaat) they stand up sluggishly; they do it only to be seen of men and do not remember Allah save a little.

Assalaat is about remembering Allah. Regular remembering Allah makes you conscious of Allah, the main thing that prevents one doing evil deeds. Therefore, remembering Allah (being conscious of Allah) makes one righteous person leading him to do good and stay away from doing evil deeds.

To try to dilute the real purpose of "assalaat" is ignorance. It is no better than ulema stressing on assalaat so much but not on having taqwa. My understanding is that a human being was created to be a good human being than a bad Muslim. A lot of Muslim ulema are not trying to teach people to be good human beings.
That is my point.
I am not saying the rituals are not helpful. Rituals do help the majority of believers to facilitate remembrance [waladhik'ru; dhikr] of Allah.
But the focus of salaat [SLW] should not be on the ritualistic aspect of it, the focus should be what is going on the mind of the believer when they direct mindful attention to Allah.

The point is, no believer nor ulema can claim what they "invented" as rituals to help the majority of believers is specifically from Allah, i.e. they cannot insist it is because Allah said so and from there create anxieties for believers and much inconveniences for non-believers.

Last edited by Continuum; 04-06-2017 at 10:39 PM..
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Old 04-07-2017, 12:38 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Khalif,

Re Salaat [SLW]

Here is a note from Aidid Safar, he claimed;

Quote:
The word Sol-laa [S-L] or any of the derivatives from the same root word is never used in the Reading [Quran] to refer to the act of worship or the performance of a set of body movements.

Its use always refers to the act of honouring, upholding, dedicating or observing of commitments, obligations, accountabilities, responsibilities etc. by consenting person or persons when the phrase 'aqi-mu' is used.
Literally the word Sol-laa means to 'commit'.
Ref:
https://mentalbondageinthenameofgod....ritual-prayer/

I suggest you read the whole article [chapter] on this.
Even if you do not agree, your effort will not be wasted because Aidid Safar put in a lot of effort in researching and analyzing the concept of Salaat [SLW] and its derivatives here.

If you think he is wrong, where did he go wrong here?
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Old 04-07-2017, 02:36 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,046,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I understand the central word is 'salaat' [SLW] and 'assalaat' is another grammatical form [meaning] of that main theme.
Assalaat is pronunciation of al-salaat (the prayer). It differentiate the prayer at the appointed time from any other prayer (salaat) by anyone even by mushrikeen (people praying to idols).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
For example, if the main theme is eating a dinner to satisfy one's hunger, all other words like biting, chewing, masticating, putting food in the mouth, swallowing, and the likes belong to the same theme. A linguist who rely on the root system could assign a specific root [e.g. Z-Y-Z] to all these related actions.
Root letters do not work every time just as "i before e except after c" does not work every time. If the author or you stick to just one word and ignore the grammar that changes the meaning, you will keep arguing till the cows come home but will change nothing.

The question of grammar:

There is difference in "salaat" صَلَات 8:35 and "al-salaat" الصَّلَاةِ in 2:238. First one is not a prayer of the believers but the second one with "al" ("the") is the one that is the prayer at the appointed time for the believers. It's plural is الصَّلَوَات (see 2:38).

The above example in the Qur'aan is the same as mention of "hadith" and "the hadith". There is massive difference in "the hadith" and "hadith". Mixing them both and thinking them as the same thing would be utter ignorance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is my point.
I am not saying the rituals are not helpful. Rituals do help the majority of believers to facilitate remembrance [waladhik'ru; dhikr] of Allah.
But the focus of salaat [SLW] should not be on the ritualistic aspect of it, the focus should be what is going on the mind of the believer when they direct mindful attention to Allah.
The focus in assalaat is not on rituals of standing, bowing and prostration but on what we are saying during the formal prayer (assalaat). The rituals are not a "must". One can pray sitting, standing or in any position that is the only position possible at the time. But these rituals do help in more than one way. I have found them to be very helpful (even good for my body).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The point is, no believer nor ulema can claim what they "invented" as rituals to help the majority of believers is specifically from Allah, i.e. they cannot insist it is because Allah said so and from there create anxieties for believers and much inconveniences for non-believers.
What's your point here? Ulema did not invent them. They are all in the Qur'aan.
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Old 04-07-2017, 02:40 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,046,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Khalif,

Re Salaat [SLW]

Here is a note from Aidid Safar, he claimed;



Ref:
https://mentalbondageinthenameofgod....ritual-prayer/

I suggest you read the whole article [chapter] on this.
Even if you do not agree, your effort will not be wasted because Aidid Safar put in a lot of effort in researching and analyzing the concept of Salaat [SLW] and its derivatives here.

If you think he is wrong, where did he go wrong here?
Read my previous post. Did he mention "al salaat" الصَّلَاةِ ? He is talking about "salaat" but not "al salaat" (pronounced as "assalaat").
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Old 04-07-2017, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,593,506 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Assalaat is pronunciation of al-salaat (the prayer). It differentiate the prayer at the appointed time from any other prayer (salaat) by anyone even by mushrikeen (people praying to idols).

Root letters do not work every time just as "i before e except after c" does not work every time. If the author or you stick to just one word and ignore the grammar that changes the meaning, you will keep arguing till the cows come home but will change nothing.

The question of grammar:

There is difference in "salaat" صَلَات 8:35 and "al-salaat" الصَّلَاةِ in 2:238. First one is not a prayer of the believers but the second one with "al" ("the") is the one that is the prayer at the appointed time for the believers. It's plural is الصَّلَوَات (see 2:38).

The above example in the Qur'aan is the same as mention of "hadith" and "the hadith". There is massive difference in "the hadith" and "hadith". Mixing them both and thinking them as the same thing would be utter ignorance.

The focus in assalaat is not on rituals of standing, bowing and prostration but on what we are saying during the formal prayer (assalaat). The rituals are not a "must". One can pray sitting, standing or in any position that is the only position possible at the time. But these rituals do help in more than one way. I have found them to be very helpful (even good for my body).

What's your point here? Ulema did not invent them. They are all in the Qur'aan.
According to Safar view's the central concept of S-L-W is commitment, i.e. commitment to fulfil one's duty to Allah.

Thus to Safar, the main concept of "al-salaat" الصَّلَاةِ is a mindful focus on "THE commitment to Allah" and not "al-salaat" الصَّلَاةِ = ritual prayers with a certain 'fixed' sayings in fixed patterns.
This commitment is associated with the impulse to link, enjoin, bond and union with Allah.

"salaat" صَلَات in 8:35 refers to underlying 'commitment by the infidels to their gods' as displayed by their actions which is not necessary confined to whistling and hand clapping. [8:35] but they have different methods of 'praying' to idols, partners, gods, etc.
The Christians has communion, i.e. eating parts of Jesus symbolically representing the seeking of union with Jesus and to God.

Therefore the main essence of 'salaat' (SLW) is 'commitment' to fulfil one's obligation to Allah via some means of communications [one way to Allah]. Thus there is no need to do "salaat" 5 times a day at precise times.

This the quite similar problem with J-H-D where the central concept means 'putting in extra effort' in examples of striving, struggle, endeavor, and the likes. But many religionists equate J-H-D and its various derivatives to 'holy war' which technically is not correct in relation to the Quran-only.

Just as J-H-D is not equal to holy war directly, the main concept of salaat [SLW] is also not precisely equal to ritual prayers with fixed patterns at fixed times as per the Quran-only.

Last edited by Continuum; 04-07-2017 at 08:55 PM..
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Old 04-07-2017, 10:32 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 666,629 times
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a word ( salat)

Non-Arabic

But it is Aramaic and Syriac
Meaning surrender or submission
So far we use the word

Allah and His angels send blessings upon the Prophet
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